Author Topic: Crafting Complaints  (Read 11886 times)

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2007, 11:05:22 AM »
Well seeing it appears to be in the interest of most crafters, whoever does put together a book feel free to submit it to me or the other developers to look at, shouldn't take long to get it in game from that point.

Since most of the crafting into needed will be OOC, how about the books being part IC, and part OOC? The IC part would have a bit off flare and license, while the OOC part would be a bit more bare bones (as it's hard to ICly say "Gee, you need to put the template on the table with the other stuff...")

Knas

  • Developers
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 8735
  • Worthless phony
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2007, 12:43:17 PM »
Why would it need to be ooc?

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2007, 12:52:32 PM »
Why would it need to be ooc?

Mainly, because templates for bows in real life do not exist, I guess. Little things like that.

Knas

  • Developers
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 8735
  • Worthless phony
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2007, 01:19:27 PM »
That's why I said it would be hard, finding ic reason for everything. +1 ab doesn't exist either but can be explained by "This would make the bow more flexible and easily maneuvered." or something alike. The template should represent something though I believe : o

kenpen

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2007, 01:37:21 PM »
That's why I said it would be hard, finding ic reason for everything. +1 ab doesn't exist either but can be explained by "This would make the bow more flexible and easily maneuvered." or something alike. The template should represent something though I believe : o

Eh. Template could easily represent the molds and casts for sword blanks and such, as far as metalworking goes. They don't represent anything for bows, though, since that's now how bows are made. Nor would they represent anything similar for leatherworking (I am assuming leather armor has templates too... never known a leatherworker to get to a decent level.)

I never attempted the leatherworking system because the only station not in a town is on the outskirts of Barovia. The other is in Vallaki, inside which I try to go as little as possible. I still think there should be a leatherworking station at the elves, and maybe even one in the Drain. That's the one thing Caliban are more likely to be decent at. Taking death things, and making things out of them. ;)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 01:39:29 PM by kenpen »

Knas

  • Developers
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 8735
  • Worthless phony
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2007, 02:03:04 PM »
Thing is, when making a leather armor you need more than just 3 leather patches and a sewing kit. If not finding an ic reason for the mold then it could just be ignored

ethinos

  • Keepin' it hardcore since 2nd edition AD&D
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3707
  • When in doubt, fireball.
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2007, 02:22:09 PM »
I'm a bit against books on crafting. You should be fostering the idea of apprentices or at least an IC learning experience.

While you can "wing it" and probably manage to craft on your own (like I did from trial and error, and checking a few posts on the forums), its a bit more realistic to find a crafter and learn from them.

Last week, I taught someone the basics of smithing IC. Probably more fun than just reading a book, and I was there to answer questions IC (or OOC through tells).

If we do have books, keep them as simple as possible. Figuring out which hide, for instance, grants which bonus should be learned through experience or from talking to other crafters.
Torgan Ironshield: Battlerager and smith
Wirth Darmington II: Roguish noble
Kurgh: A simple herdsman

solgursky

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2007, 03:49:28 PM »
My view on crafting and what is wrong with the current system:

For skills like Moving Silently, you choose them on levelling up. It is understood reotroactively that your character practiced this skill.

For skills such as crafting, you have to spend countless hours working on it. At the same time, you are gaining all of your class skills such as Moving Silently or Parry.

So what this translates to me is: "Crafting is a special skill that can only be awarded by people boring themselves to death."

So it rewards people who spend a lot of time on the server, and don't require the same amount of interaction (i.e. with players/npcs) to enjoy themselves. People who come here to roleplay their character for 10-12 hours per week are basically barred from crafting. Meanwhile people who can spend 20-25 hours per week here, and who spend their time at the very boring and monotonous practice of crafting, are rewarded.
This seems wrong to me, we shouldn't be penalizing people for the amount of RL hours they can spend at the game. And if somebody who did have a shorter play-time per week attempted crafting, they would lose out on the parts of this experience that are valuable and enjoyable.

I think that crafting should be done by skill points, this solves the discrepancy between players with extra time available and those who are on shorter play-schedules. Not only that, it requires crafters to make a choice between their class skills such as Spot and Listen, and crafting. A master crafter who is a level 6 rogue should never be on par, when it comes to skills, with a level 6 rogue who spent her time on her non-crafting skills.
Loudo Whitefield

ethinos

  • Keepin' it hardcore since 2nd edition AD&D
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3707
  • When in doubt, fireball.
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2007, 03:56:10 PM »
I take it you haven't crafted here yet.

We have a separate system of XP called CXP (crafting experience points) that is tracked separately from your class experience, and goes towards crafting levels, which again, is separate from your class levels. Making a suit of plate mail doesn't help you gain a level in fighter, and bashing a monster doesn't help you one bit in making that next suit of armor.

Actually, when Torgan spent his time getting to a decent crafting level in smithing, I lost out on lots of RP possibilities, he lagged behind ,level-wise, other PC's that started at the same time and played just as often, and the only actual experience he gained towards leveling was mowing down critters standing between me and the ore.
Torgan Ironshield: Battlerager and smith
Wirth Darmington II: Roguish noble
Kurgh: A simple herdsman

eyeofpestilence

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2007, 05:12:47 PM »
If you think crafting takes forever now you should have seen the system in which Dorin started crafting under! A person can fly up lvls in crafting now in comparison. Case in point Torgan is crafting steel weapons now. He's been crafting for say a month/month and a half ooc time. It took Dorin 2.5 months ooc time to do that, and 3.5 months to max his crafting, and that's powercrafting! This time spent crafting took time away from gaining xp and from rp. But now it is a large reason for Dorin's rp and xp. 90% of what he does involves crafting related dungeon crawls and crafting. he's caught up with others as the server has a tendency to do that, no matter the number of hours one puts in.

Thanks DW!

Catacomb

  • One of the Regular People
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1483
  • Yes, very tired.
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2007, 05:48:12 PM »
I believe the reason that the Devs decided to remove the crafting skills at level-up was because it favors high level characters drastically.

Under that system a level 6 fighter who's spent nearly all his time crafting and puts some of his valuable skill points into "craft weapons"  would be worse at crafting than the level 11 rogue, who just decides to dump a load of skill points into that skill at his most recent level without rping it.


As it is now, if you want your character to be a smith or a bowyer, or a leatherworker, it means a significant in-game devotion to the craft. It makes the system much more selective, so that you don't have -every- player running around and making their own weapons and armor.

sig by Garison

Account: CatacombD

solgursky

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2007, 06:04:17 PM »
Hmmm, some good points there. I think you're right about it making sense to have a master crafter who is only a 3rd level fighter, something like that. I'm convinced.  :lol:

Still, the exclusivity does seem a bit much, to me. I've spent a lot of time crafting but haven't made much headway in it. It's probably just not for me.
Loudo Whitefield

eyeofpestilence

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2007, 06:14:12 PM »
If a master crafter can get coal and iron at lvl three I'd love to see it! The reason why Dorin is lvl 15 is because of smithing. plain and simple. He could not get coal untill lvl 9. Even then he required a lot of help. It wasn't until lvl 15 that he can potentially solo down there. Good luck making a lvl 3 master crafter. Hats of to you if you can. Oh and btw the silvermine is unsoloable. Even for lvl 20. if you want Dorin can take you to a few of these places. You will learn very fast OOC that a lvl 3 crafter is in capable of occuring. :)

Then again if that lvl 3 crafter spent all his time RP'ing and paying others to get the materials, then granted it's possible. But few are willing to even go into the silver mines. Still don't think it would occur.

Thanks DW!

ethinos

  • Keepin' it hardcore since 2nd edition AD&D
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3707
  • When in doubt, fireball.
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2007, 07:22:09 PM »
I've spent a lot of time crafting but haven't made much headway in it. It's probably just not for me.

You will have to spend a lot of time crafting, and doing nothing but crafting, to become proficient in it. I had Torgan mining, smelting, and smithing for weeks on end, 5-15 hours a day, just to even start steel work. The devotion required to become a "master" crafter, is immense and not for everyone. A lot of people start crafting, very few people have gotten to the point where they are "masters".

Dorin, Torgan, and I believe Helaman has a character who are master smiths. The others have left, and most of the recent folks who started never kept to it.

Grimshackle is the only current master woodworker that I know of, since Liam up and disappeared.

I have no clue if we even have a master leather worker.

I think you're right about it making sense to have a master crafter who is only a 3rd level fighter, something like that. I'm convinced.

Jrgood1 is right. In every craft the more desirable the component, the harder to acquire it is. Its to the point where I'd actually recommend waiting till level 8 or 9 to even start up a craft.
Torgan Ironshield: Battlerager and smith
Wirth Darmington II: Roguish noble
Kurgh: A simple herdsman

Ryltar/ Robert Archer

  • The Cult of the Morninglord
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3028
  • The Chuck Norris of RP -Eraldur
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2007, 07:38:50 PM »
i've done a bit of crafting here and there with tanning and boiling and leather working so i know how it can take time away from things my advice is try and make a group going out of it. I recall at one time i had calson (aka bolson) have three others he worked with to get furs for tanning then they would split the profits of that. or make a group up where you get stag horns or something it generates rp and xp all around plus lessens the dullness of soloing the crafting system alone :) just a piece of adive that i've found helps

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2007, 01:10:25 AM »
I've been working on trying to make weapons and armors and such. A book that could be bought would be nice, if simply to say," hey, a beech wood pole can't be used to make a battle axe. "
I have tried finding people to help me learn which things to use to craft with iccly, and saddly, most of what I have learned has been through trial and error. Still haven;t figured out what is needed to make a spear or battle axe. Metal is obvious, but one would thing that the pole would be the other part to the equasion.
Finally figured out the two components for armors, after much irritation in trying to use the wrong ones and recieving no results. Even today, if you wanted to learn to make something, even old fashion bows or forging a weapon, you can buy a book which would tell you the basic nessicities for what you might need to start with, if nothing else.  Ie., armor is made from this and this and here is a basic on how to do it.
Such would not garuntee sucess, nor the best equipment, but would give you a general idea of what to use. Leather pads, boiled leather pads, poles, bone, etc.
Maybe the smithy could sell a basic's 101, even if selecting the blacksmith's apprentice as a profession, unless it adds a journal entry which could be looked at by the pc to determine the basic's of crafting and such that one might already know from previous experiance as an apprentice. Perhaps a journal entry added from the selection in the conversation would be the easiest way to go as far as the crafting is concerned, might add a bit more realism?

eyeofpestilence

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2007, 03:19:37 AM »
Working on something for in game. Will be IC as possible which I will forward to Knas as he requested. In the mean time the short and skinny OOC guide right here.....

Progression for smithing:
Copper, Bronze (combo of copper and tin), iron, steel (combo or iron and coal)

Tip to know what is required to make an item use the special examine funtion on the template!

For weapons:
Primary is number of ingots.
Secondary is handle. (I believe made out of beech using a saw in wood working station twice)

For Shields:
Primary is number of ingots.
Secondary is number of wooden planks. (made of oak)

For Armor:
Primary is number of ingots.
Secondary is number of fir patches. (Use regular leather patches. Do not use boiled leather.)


Gilding
You cannot guild until you have 30 lvls in smithing. Note this is the typical range of DC for steel weapons.
You require four things for Silver guilding. Apricot acid, Mercury, a silver ingot and an item to gild silver too.
this craft is fairly new and may be subject to change. Further platinum is not gildable at this time.

Now that this is posted here. The whole world will be able to craft. Somehow I doubt this will impact the number of people who will stick to crafting. :P

Thanks DW!

ethinos

  • Keepin' it hardcore since 2nd edition AD&D
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3707
  • When in doubt, fireball.
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2007, 04:46:20 AM »
Even today, if you wanted to learn to make something, even old fashion bows or forging a weapon, you can buy a book which would tell you the basic nessicities for what you might need to start with, if nothing else.

Back in the middle ages, books were very uncommon, most folks couldn't read them, and the secrets of crafting were usually known only to the crafters themselves. So, I think if you wanted more realism, a book isn't the right way for that.

Maybe the smithy could sell a basic's 101, even if selecting the blacksmith's apprentice as a profession, unless it adds a journal entry which could be looked at by the pc to determine the basic's of crafting and such that one might already know from previous experiance as an apprentice. Perhaps a journal entry added from the selection in the conversation would be the easiest way to go as far as the crafting is concerned, might add a bit more realism?

Have you read the crafting guides in the Rest/Craft menu? They pretty much indicate the likely needs for your crafting, as well as your current cxp and crafting levels. Between these, and the hints that the craft shop owners give you, I've been able to successfully do all the crafting we have in the game without aid.
Torgan Ironshield: Battlerager and smith
Wirth Darmington II: Roguish noble
Kurgh: A simple herdsman

Elo-EF

  • Guest
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2007, 05:06:04 AM »
I doubt there would be much printing of books on the making of bows, metal armour or sword manufacture in the enlightenment domains with printing presses either. Now a book of firearm manufacture and maintenance...

Helaman

  • What the hell am I doing here?
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2007, 05:13:36 AM »
Stop drooling on the Keyboards...


Can someone let Edward play with some of the toys from the "Pirates" module... that would give him a boner.

And Otake, Wulfgang Eberhardt, Aesin, Humiko, Bonereaver, Anthrania + whatever concept I am playing with...

Knas

  • Developers
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 8735
  • Worthless phony
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2007, 03:10:21 AM »
Hey.. I've been trying to get those guns in for ever!

Smitehammer

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Frohe Weihnachten
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2007, 02:25:22 PM »
My chief crafting complaint is that I can't seem to find out where to get information on the crafting systems...

I know back in the day when I played I saw some info on it, but now I can't seem to recall where that was.  Another player was asking me in tells about crafting and I was as lost as he was.  Looking around on the forums, looking in-game for a book or something...

Am I missing a sticky or something?
Wouldn't the world be better off if we took nonsense more seriously?

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 15292
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2007, 02:27:31 PM »
In the rest menu, you get a Crafting info, there you can select View Crafting Information.

Smitehammer

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Frohe Weihnachten
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2007, 03:00:29 PM »
Aha!  I knew it was around here somewhere.
Wouldn't the world be better off if we took nonsense more seriously?

Aeol_Strife

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Crafting Complaints
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2007, 09:50:53 PM »
I don't know if I merely need a really good craft score or something but whenever I make leather armors, its all very plain work.  Blacksmiths can make armor +1 and line it with pelts to help protect against cold/negative energy by using leather, and leather can only make itself -(#)/cold or negative by using either thick hide, Crag Cat, Winter Wolf, or Worg

i'm suggesting that leather workers should be able to make any kind of padded/leather/hide armor with the right kind of material as a +1 and have the additive against cold or negative, or maybe I am just really mistaken and am doing it wrong, but could somone help explain it to me if so? and if i'm right is it possible to fix it?