Dungeons after spawn growth tweak

[gotesu]

I admit that I find it much more fun to go to a dungeon and find it at full spawn.

People organize parties with the max-spawn of a dungeon in mind. I can count on one hand the times I was actually glad a spawn wasn't max, and I have been playing the server for several years now.

I never felt like I have an 'impact on the server' due to the fact the dungeon I ran is now low spawn, if anything I was sad that my enjoyment comes at the expense of people that come after me, especially when they've managed to form up a party and travelled all the way to the dungeon I just cleared with my own group.

Impact on the server should be through rp, through interactions with people, not through setting a timer on others' PvE fun.

We want grinding to slow down? that's exactly why we got the xp cap system and it works splendidly in slowing down ppl.

Low spawn is so drastically different than a full spawn in a given dungeon, that a low spawn dungeon would be regarded as a total waste of time. Running into it is frustrating and the only reason to actually clear it is because you spent so much energy in forming up a group and finally setting out to clear it, that you're not really left with much else to do.

I honestly think it would be much better if dungeons were always at full spawn, and if not - that at least the growth be much faster.

Another solution would be that the differences between high spawn and low spawn wouldn't be so dramatic as they are now. Like, a 1 or 2 CR difference in terms of loot and xp instead of a cr difference of 5+.

Either way, I continued poking around and I've yet to see a dungeon at full spawn since the update.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

First of all, it should be stated that the context here is a bug that was causing some places to have too low spawn. That was corrected a month ago, which then led to us to re-evaluate spawn levels after fixing it. Doing this, we saw that the spawn levels were now in general very high, which led to the most recent adjustment.

Now, it's important to have in mind here that lower spawns doesn't mean that the dungeons are empty. It may mean that the places you used to go to are now too little of a challenge, but at the same time, other places that were before too hard may now be possible to explore.

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

[Duayne]

I would prefer anti-farm measures implemented instead of reduced build-up. From my observations as well since this change I don't think I have seen a full-spawn dungeon, even when the server is as low as 20~ pop. I didn't really see a problem with the previous rates, especially since player numbers are often in the 70-80+ daily during the week, and 120~ at weekends. Reduced 'optimal' availability in these dungeons is just going cause more OOC frustrations imo. If spamming dungeons is an issue, then as some others have said, something in place similar to what is already there to prevent ninja-looters spam looting the same dungeons on repeat could be beneficial, however, some transparency in that would be needed, otherwise I can see a lot of accidental griefing happening.

[gotesu]

First of all, it should be stated that the context here is a bug that was causing some places to have too low spawn. That was corrected a month ago, which then led to us to re-evaluate spawn levels after fixing it. Doing this, we saw that the spawn levels were now in general very high, which led to the most recent adjustment.

Now, it's important to have in mind here that lower spawns doesn't mean that the dungeons are empty. It may mean that the places you used to go to are now too little of a challenge, but at the same time, other places that were before too hard may now be possible to explore.

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

Since forming a party is not as easy as one would hope, and also because of other psychological reasons - A party very seldom organizes to raid a dungeon by expecting it to be a low spawn. It will almost always opt to head to a dungeon whose high spawn fits the party.

This, in essence, would mean that this form of radical variance in dungeon difficulty (and equally important - gain) would almost always be encountered with frustration. For the very reason that it will be lower than what an engaging group expects in most cases.

Unexpected surprises are great, but maybe they could be incorporated in a different way? Maybe a random chance to encounter some unique group of enemies in addition to what the dungeon usually offers? Perhaps even in ways that would force a group to stop and rethink their strategies? But in essence, a variance that would increase the challenge creatively (Not only the same thing with +xyz on stats) rather than decreasing it.

Albeit, as mentioned, the initial reason for this thread is because I think the current configuration took the pendulum too strongly to the other direction. (I might be wrong though, Im only based on my subjective experience).

[myrddraal]

First of all, it should be stated that the context here is a bug that was causing some places to have too low spawn. That was corrected a month ago, which then led to us to re-evaluate spawn levels after fixing it. Doing this, we saw that the spawn levels were now in general very high, which led to the most recent adjustment.

Now, it's important to have in mind here that lower spawns doesn't mean that the dungeons are empty. It may mean that the places you used to go to are now too little of a challenge, but at the same time, other places that were before too hard may now be possible to explore.

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

If we really want to scratch the surface of the conversation in regards to dungeons, it opens the whole can of worms about “mist camp RP” which some people will just adamantly rail against.  What we are trying to convey to you from the player side is that there are much better ways to make the environment feel alive than be oocly inconvenient.  Many dungeons are farmed by people who don’t even get experience there simply because if the quality of the loot whether it’s to sell or to get the crafting material they need for their perma life never closure pc to be ultra min maxed with the greatest BIS gear in every slot.  The fire mines for example is an incredibly easy dungeon that stops giving xp at like 18 but is put on farm Bevause of the wide pool of fantastic loot that it drops.  Even if people won’t get xp there they will still go and enjoy trivial content even at its highest spawns because they’re over leveled for the content, but it might drop those shadow scales, or a cane of detection, or astral drift metal, which are all considered some of the BIS drops and crafting materials.

People hate wasting their time.  We’re all adults with lives and other stuff to do.  Running to a dungeon after spending some arbitrary amount of time collecting people (which sometimes takes hours in and of itself, which is where people idly roleplay) and finding it not worth clearing does not fill people with the sense of a breathing world.  It’s just inconvenient running to a different location, which if it is also weak, more than likely people will just log out.  Nobody wants to run over all the continents looking for content in the little time they can spare for a game.  It’s the same reason people in Port-a-lucine (until very recently with indolence’s new plot there) just did not linger on the terraces for roleplay because there was simply nobody there.  They didn’t want to waste their time.  It wasn’t scintillating RP, it turned into mostly planned events and privately planned scenes.  When I was in my gendarme I’d crawl over almost every inch of Dementlieu and just never saw another pc and shelved then because it was terrible and a waste of hours of my day.

If you introduced mechanics that removed loot if people didn’t receive xp, you’d see less dungeon farming specifically for loot, but that would be another system for the server to maintain.  A better way to keep things fresh is more ampcs that can create story in various domains rather than being arbitrarily punished for someone else having run the content you wanted to hours earlier.

I understand what the intent is, but it is not being interpreted that way by almost anyone.

[Maiyannah]

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

Is your design aim to make people engage less with dungeons?  Because the less certain the result, the less likely people are willing to engage to begin with, save perhaps in instances where you're intentionally cultivating gambling behaviours.  Given that I don't think that's your intent, I don't think there is a realization of what your design is actually engendering a response of.

[Desident]

400% in support of a system that adjusts the loot to the amount of EXP you get. Barely getting any EXP? You get minimum spawns Loot table. As it is, I play for a few hours a day, and maybe get to do a dungeon 1 in 3 times I log in, cause they have been recently cleared and no one wants to go spend resources on something that wont be worth it.

[apeppertoo]

Dungeons should only spawn at max and low spawns aren't worth anyone's consideration.

XP cap is more than enough to regulate progression speed. Varied spawn is just punishment for people who don't dungeon as much, or are simply unlucky. Induces unnecessary resentment among players and, as detailed above, eventually can lead to players giving up on engaging in your content.

Remove dynamic spawns. Max spawn only.

[Abear]

anything that slows down xp gains is right with me

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

This design was in place for more than one and a half decade and worked out fine and served its purpose. Some factors caused it to malfunction. We've fixed that.

That's not to say that everything is perfect or can't be discussed, but just to add some perspective here before anyone calls out "ruined forever."

[Evendur]

First of all, it should be stated that the context here is a bug that was causing some places to have too low spawn. That was corrected a month ago, which then led to us to re-evaluate spawn levels after fixing it. Doing this, we saw that the spawn levels were now in general very high, which led to the most recent adjustment.

Now, it's important to have in mind here that lower spawns doesn't mean that the dungeons are empty. It may mean that the places you used to go to are now too little of a challenge, but at the same time, other places that were before too hard may now be possible to explore.

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

This all sounds good in theory, but I cannot say that I have ever seen this to work as intended during my time on the server.
In 9 out of 10 cases I have seen, a group that encounters a low spawn will turn around, because its a waste of time and not fun to play. And while there may be a rare case where a low spawn is challenged, I have yet to find a single group that would head out to a higher lvl dungeon that they could not challenge at max spawn, in hopes that is is a low spawn they could manage. This seems very far removed from the reality that players face.

When I started my first char on the server during covid (with way too much time on my hands) me and others who started at the time wanted to see what our characters could become and ran a lot of dungeons every day with 30-50 hours a week on average. they were almost always at max spawn. It still took a full year to reach 20 levels (and still more if we count enchanting). The same result could likely have been achieved with more patience to avoid blind drive and perhaps 6 months of total active play with several month of break in between, taking 1 irl year as well to reach 20 levels. I do not know what the intend for this slow down is, but I do not see why you would want people to take more then a full year to reach a characters end of lvl growth. That is already an insane time investment. With the current rate it looks like people will now need 3-5 irl years to reach lvl 20 and I dont see who would enjoy that. It certainly does not feel respectful to player time invested and it creates even more barriers for characters to be closured and find an appropriate end to their story.

[myrddraal]

anything that slows down xp gains is right with me

"I got mine and dont care if anyone else gets theirs." Is how this comes off.  If XP needs to be tinkered with, perhaps the red cap being pushed a little closer, that is an infinitely better solution.  I would honestly say faster XP gains would be better for the server because characters would be more inclined to closure since it wont take them 3 years to get back to where they were in a fresh story.

[Maiyannah]

This design was in place for more than one and a half decade and worked out fine and served its purpose. Some factors caused it to malfunction. We've fixed that.

That's not to say that everything is perfect or can't be discussed, but just to add some perspective here before anyone calls out "ruined forever."

If it was malfunctioning, then the system in place is not the system as designed and this defence does not hold up for at least one of the two considerations.

[Abear]

If XP needs to be tinkered with, perhaps the red cap being pushed a little closer, that is an infinitely better solution.

this seems like a good idea too

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

This design was in place for more than one and a half decade and worked out fine and served its purpose. Some factors caused it to malfunction. We've fixed that.

That's not to say that everything is perfect or can't be discussed, but just to add some perspective here before anyone calls out "ruined forever."

If it was malfunctioning, then the system in place is not the system as designed and this defence does not hold up for at least one of the two considerations.

I'm referring to how it was before the malfunctioning. That is the state it is now restored to (hopefully) and which is as designed.

[Flat Cap]

All the hubbub is just about when things change unexpectedly. It'll take a little time, but the same behaviors will return when players get a better understanding of the progression of spawns. As Soren pointed out, all this really means is that you'll likely be able to complete dungeons that were more challenging in the past.

Where in the past, you would enter a dungeon and see a low spawn and say "nope" now you'll enter and see a high spawn and say "maybe".

Imo, this will make for more fun and provide greater challenge and diversity of challenges

[Duayne]

The way I'm reading this, it is not offering any greater challenge, but making the same ceiling of challenge much harder to come across. If anyone sees a full-spawn dungeon now, it's going to be an OOC scramble to get a group together and claim it before another group does, and I can see this leading to OOC driven conflicts. Any changes made should really be to ease the time commitment or waiting around to do things. The server is quite a grind already, and the slowness is definitely an element that discourages some players from ever closing.

The same system for the past decade I do not think is still fit for purpose, seeing the population boomed during Covid.

[myrddraal]

All the hubbub is just about when things change unexpectedly. It'll take a little time, but the same behaviors will return when players get a better understanding of the progression of spawns. As Soren pointed out, all this really means is that you'll likely be able to complete dungeons that were more challenging in the past.

Where in the past, you would enter a dungeon and see a low spawn and say "nope" now you'll enter and see a high spawn and say "maybe".

Imo, this will make for more fun and provide greater challenge and diversity of challenges

No, it really doesnt.  People who run into a bunch of lower spawned dungeons arent going to just decide "well everything is weak, lets go to sithicus!  Thats ordinarily way too hard for us but maybe its weak too."  Thats a nonsensical argument to be made.

[Maiyannah]

The way I'm reading this, it is not offering any greater challenge, but making the same ceiling of challenge much harder to come across.

I agree with this reading, and why I was inviting them to consider that the desired result didn't match the actual result.

[Lucadia]

Checking a spawn over a period of 4 nights in a row and finding it at minimum spawn every night or had grown a population of 1 mob is not enticing if not pretty rude to respecting my game time. I want to run one -good- dungeon to use the xp cap I gained for the week, not be frustrated I now need to create a small train to hit every dungeon for minimum gain.  You don't want players to earn xp via dungeons, then turn xp off completely or make the cap be smaller for storage. 

As it is, I'm now discouraged from playing alts who's main source of progression is..a dungeon.

As it is, my profession as a miner barely had impact if I cleared a floor for nodes and spawn fixed in matter of hours. Now such activity will be detriment to players that wanted the classic dungeon experience.

[Anarcoplayba]

I believe the whole playerbase disagree openly with the vision that "the dungeons are not supposed to be at max spawn all the time".

No group of players ever say "Oh, let us head to Toth and hope it is mid or low spawn so we can do it", "God, let us hope the Vestibules are weak, or else we will need to give up!", "Please, let us pray that the Ship was recently raided so we do not find too challenging foes."

From the playerbase we do expect to find a dungeon near the cap of its supposed spawn because it is what we are planning to face. Not being able to finish a dungeon because it is too strong is a failure both for us (who had not our fun) and for everyone else (because the next prepared group will find the place at low spawn because of the trial and failure).

It makes no sense to try to push a mentality that a dungeon max level is around 14, so, you, lvl 9, should go there hoping to find it at low spawn and will have an adequate challenge and reward, but, if it by miracle is too high, turn your back and plan another thing or you will gonna die.

It is bad time allotment running across the server searching for an available dungeon.

I can understand the idea of tiying the spawn to the server player population, but if the regular server population with the regular server playstile is not enough to allow that the dungeons are usually at a regular spawn (i.e., at least near the expected challenge), the rate of growing seems inadequate.

Also: this makes the whole server design strange. If it is intended that Tejeda is constantly at a lvl 8 challenge rating, for instance, it should be near Vallaki. "Recently" the Village of Barovia suffered a push up in challenge to reflect it's nature of "no beginner area". What is the sense in making all the spawn slow growing in a way that you push dow the challenge rating of every dungeon for levels down?

[transcend]

First of all, it should be stated that the context here is a bug that was causing some places to have too low spawn. That was corrected a month ago, which then led to us to re-evaluate spawn levels after fixing it. Doing this, we saw that the spawn levels were now in general very high, which led to the most recent adjustment.

Now, it's important to have in mind here that lower spawns doesn't mean that the dungeons are empty. It may mean that the places you used to go to are now too little of a challenge, but at the same time, other places that were before too hard may now be possible to explore.

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

There are other ways to add in an X factor to make things dynamic and unexpected. This should have been thoroughly play tested before being sent into production, as it were, but there's still ways to adjust 'how much' this will affect people in a way everyone's happy about.

Theme to be upheld notwithstanding, I really do suggest reviewing this change or balancing it more towards the mean than to try to play seesaw with it.

Wanting to add a random element to things, great! But there aren't enough DM events out there to justify adding a gacha/roulette style game to whether a dungeon is max spawn or not. If anything, this already adds to the frustrating and alienating feel some people have when they start here, myself included.

Just some food for thought.

PS: Reshaping dungeons due to player impact is a good way of showcasing your initial argument without actually breaking the time economy, as it were.

[Evendur]

If stopping the same people from grinding the same dungeons is the intend, then why not implement a similar solution that the one for ninja looting. If the same characters enter a dungeon a second time, hours after they cleared it, the spawn is set to low. But if anyone else enters it, it should be always set to high (or perhaps get back to high within 2-3 hours). To prevent the low setting, a condition could be to have the dungeons cleared by another group first, perhaps even the requirement to have been cleared by another player to avoid dungeons being raided by multiple characters of the same players.

[PlatinumSylph]

I must say, the dungeons do feel rather... abandoned in their current state. Like wandering through a condemned amusement park; plenty of broken attractions, but no thrill to be found.

Also, this current iteration feels like it'll exacerbate "ninjalooting." I didn't even need to use stealth while weaving between chests. Thirty minutes in, no resistance, and I've walked away with 100k for my troubles. Efficient? Sure, I guess. Engaging? Not particularly.

[Anarcoplayba]

It does mean that which dungeons you will be able to clear completely is now a bit less predictable and more dynamic. But this is by design - both to make it harder to speculate how to mechanically maximize challenge-to-reward, and (much more importantly) to make it feel less repetitive, to introduce the element of uncertainty that's pivotal to the setting theme, and to make the world and it's inhabitants seem more alive.

Is your design aim to make people engage less with dungeons?  Because the less certain the result, the less likely people are willing to engage to begin with, save perhaps in instances where you're intentionally cultivating gambling behaviours.  Given that I don't think that's your intent, I don't think there is a realization of what your design is actually engendering a response of.

It is an awesome games theory problem: a player will enter a dungeon, see the low spawn and do nothing to let other person have fun or will buldoze the place because "well, I have one hour to play, tomorrow it will be low spawn again, so, f-it, better a little than nothing".

Also, the intention may be to add a degree of incertainty but the result is just lowering every dungeon four or more levels in challenge. That may be nice to the population at lvl 10, that now can do Toth, but certainly is not nice to the lvl 14 that now will... go to Sithicus? hahaha This is a joke, we know that we have not enough dungeons in the server to cather to the mid/high level population.

To me, this makes playing in the server an awful ratio of time investment and result. Standing still for hours to arrive in a dungeon and not be able to do it because it is too high or not worth it because it is too low breaks the whole point of playing a videogame. I do not log on to take a chance of being able to play, I log on to play. Of course, there is a degree of competing with other players for dungeons, sure, but the way it is now there is zero stimulus to not destroy a shitty spawn dungeon: there is no hope of finding another dungeon nor that next time you log you will be able to do it.