Making alcohol give minor bonus vs. Fear

[Weyland]

I'm against suggestion because as I already replied in your thread:

1) It degrades value of Fear in FACT.
2) It has nothing provided in Ravenloft LORE to support it.

How is that derailing.  You derailed it.

[GoldenEars]

I'm against suggestion because as I already replied in your thread:

1) It degrades value of Fear in FACT.
2) It has nothing provided in Ravenloft LORE to support it.

How is that derailing.  You derailed it.

1) Yes in combination with increasing the value of other stats. Your point?
2) Why do you believe it has to have Ravenloft specific lore in order to exist in PotM? It has D&D lore and real life lore. Why do you believe that's not good enough?

You ironically sound drunk trying to demand apologies and fights in the forums. Do the suggestions of PotM creating mechanical consequences for drinking negatively remind you that there are consequences for drinking in real life which you have been ignoring?

[Weyland]

My point to 1) is that Fear is already too easy to escape. Allowing an escape from Fear through alcohol adds yet another aspect in the game that weakens the value of Fear checks. I already say this in the original reply on page one.

[Weyland]

My point to 2) is that Fear is special in Ravenloft and I need Lore for this suggestion. Not from Holland or History or D&D.

[GoldenEars]

My point to 1) is that Fear is already too easy to escape. Allowing an escape from Fear through alcohol adds yet another aspect in the game that weakens the value of Fear checks. I already say this in the original reply on page one.

My point to 2) is that Fear is special in Ravenloft and I need Lore for this suggestion. Not from Holland or History or D&D.

1) If you believe that fear is already too easy to escape in PotM, maybe you should suggest PotM tone the other methods of boosting character's fear, but you shouldn't ignore that we're suggesting this small fear boost comes with huge disadvantages at the same time, making it an overall DEBUFF and not an overall buff.
2) Lots of things are "special in Ravenloft." Again, the suggestion is to pair the small fear gain with massive debuffs in other areas. It's not a simple fear buff suggestion, but you're acting as if it is. Why?

By the way, I actually agree that there are a lot of fear boosting effects in PotM. Whether that's balanced or not, I don't know well enough, but it's way more fitting for fear to be temporarily gained via alcohol than it is by some of the other methods I've seen in PotM that just throw in fear boosts for seemingly no reason.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Potions of Courage provide +4 vs. Fear.

Getting drunk, per this discussion's suggestion, would, per failed save, give 1d2 debuff to DEX, WIS, and INT, and +1 vs. Fear. Meaning that, since WIS debuff lowers Will save, each failed drink save would give a net of +0.25 vs. Fear.

Or to put it another way, to even match a Potion of Courage, someone would have to take a 4d2 debuff to DEX, WIS, and INT. But that +4 vs. Fear would come with an average of 6 WIS debuff for -3 to Will saves.

I am genuinely perplexed that this harmless suggestion trying to breathe life into what is otherwise an unappealing and uninteresting mechanic has turned into someone's hill to die on.

[Weyland]

You lost me when you said Lots of things are special in Ravenloft. Fear&Horror in Ravenloft are like the Holy Grail to me and I am here to defend it.

[GoldenEars]

You lost me when you said Lots of things are special in Ravenloft. Fear&Horror in Ravenloft are like the Holy Grail to me and I am here to defend it.

I'm not disagreeing that fear and horror are important in Ravenloft. We're just confused as to why you believe that alcohol temporarily boosting fear resistance is a poor suggestion when it makes a lot of sense.
As I said, if you believe there's too many methods of boosting resistance already in PotM, maybe you should have simply said "cool suggestion but maybe let's additionally buff fear spells and effects in order to compensate for the ever growing methods of fear resistance."
Or maybe "cool suggestion but maybe let's remove fear resistance from [insert ability/spell/item here] in order to compensate."

You're just arguing against it irrationally when it's honestly one of the best suggestions I've heard.

[herkles]

Remember to be excellent to one another people, and focus on the topic and not derail it. So calm down people. If it continues to be derailed and excellence isn't shown the thread will be locked.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Please don't lock this thread because of one bad actor.

In my utmost attempt at good faith: the one coherent counterargument I'm reading here is that we should ground Fear resistance mechanics in Ravenloft lore, not human nature or history.

This argument misses the forest for the trees.

The point of the Fear mechanic is not to roll a dice to decide whether your character is afraid or not.

The point of the Fear mechanic is to force players to grapple with the human condition of fear.

Making characters drink alcohol to deleterious effect so that they might hope their characters pass a Fear check is not allowing them to bypass the Fear mechanic: rather, it underlines just how powerful and nasty Fear (and therefore, fear) is by how bad of a "deal" getting drunk is as a remedy.

This is in the same way that the existence of silver weapons reminds us of how crappy the options are for dealing with Werewolves, when you can't cast Greater Magic Weapon.

So rather than undermining Fear, I think my suggestion powerfully reinforces Fear, as a mechanic. "I need to get drunk to conquer my fear" is not a good idea: that some people might still do it shows how powerful fear is.

If I could direct you, staunch defender of the Fear & Horror mechanic, to something you might find significantly more objectionable: may I point out to you the existence of Potions of Courage (which can be mass-produced via low level Herbalism) and the existence of the Dragon's Eye item, both of which make Remove Fear easily and commonly accessible to every PC?

[Lightweaver]

This conversation appears to have run its course. We'll be locking the thread for now.

Edit - Thread is unlocked. Please refrain from any back and forth against one another. Keep it civil and friendly!

[GoldenEars]

It has to balance in a way that favors Fear mechanically.

I agree 100% but you were irrationally shooting down this perfectly logical and fun suggestion cold turkey saying things like "it makes sense generally to let alcohol reduce or to get rid of Fear. But I am still against it" with no rational follow up.
Also you're still arguing in bad faith by continuously ignoring the fact that this suggestion for alcohol's fear resistance should also come with several debuffs, pretending it's only being suggested to buff fear resistance.
That's not constructive at all. That's pretty much just repeating "no" to a perfectly good suggestion like a broken record.

Like alcohol gives bonus against Fear but then there's a server-wide -1 to ALL fear checks.

If you're assuming that, were this suggestion to go through, suddenly every character would decide to be drunk 100% of the time, sacrificing several of their other stats just for some slight fear resistance, you're just wrong.
It's completely dishonest to claim it would be a "server wide -1 to all fear checks."

Again, probably should have said something constructive like "it makes sense generally to let alcohol reduce or to get rid of Fear. But there are too many methods of fear resistance currently in PotM, so I suggest also increasing fear spells and abilities along with this suggestion."

[GoldenEars]

That is exactly what I said. I said the thing you said I should say, even if it HAD to be fleshed out in the course of the discussion.

Give +1 to Fear checks with alcohol.
Give -1 to Fear checks across the board server-wide.

Ah I see what you mean now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Ryujin]

Alcohol already gives a debuff. Your argument of it needing more debuffs doesn't make sense.
Liquid courage is a well-known thing. You do stupid stuff when you're drunk.

[Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)]

I was going to leave this thread at the 'Vaasan Courage' line but you know what I think we can add more.

Since we insisted on having a cooking system, why not a sub-system of brewing?

If we're going to start putting the mechanics of alcohol under a microscope then we may as well make it interesting rather than "+1 Saves vs Fear"

and finally why not segue over to this amazing thing then: Drunken Master

I still want the words 'Vaasan courage' written somewhere on this thing if something like it were implemented.

[noah2515]

My only objection to this, which I acknowledge is probably American centric and very much in the minority is more of a concern with the fact that we have a large player based that's under 18. I am just wary of their becoming a perception that alcohol is a "buff" with that community of players and over glorifying it. I mean, a +1 buff vs fear is less than you get off a dragons eye. Not terribly concerned about the balance of the thing.

[Weyland]

I'm still against it. Unless it is implemented with a sophisticated Brewing system, it's just too much to believe drinking a beer or whatever would reliably buff vs fear. Maybe allow an alcohol buff vs fear for certain classes as a feature, or make the alcohol randomly fail to provide the +1 bonus sometimes, or anything else besides a blanket anytime buff vs fear available to any and at all times. If alcohol is allowed to blanket buff saves vs fear, then I would want something in exchange for that like a -1 save vs fear for everyone whether drunk or not.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Belladonna leaf exists in game. It provides, I believe, a temporary +1 Deflection AC against Werewolves.

It is very easy to get +1 Deflection AC, period. The main purpose of Belladonna leaf is to exist as a piece of storytelling, so that people with Rings of Protection +1, or the Shield spell, or Shield of Faith, or any of the many other items or spells that give Deflection AC can look at Belladonna leaf and go, "Wow, I'm glad I'm not the poor bastards who have to use this to hunt Werewolves."

Silver weaponry is more useful for longer, but even then that is flatly eclipsed by player-crafted silver gilded weapons. The main purpose of silver weaponry that drops in game, other than mere loot salvage which could be anything else, is to exist as a piece of storytelling, so that people with silver-gilded crafted weapons, or Greater Magic Weapon, or enchanted weapons, or anything else can go, "Wow, I'm glad I'm not the poor bastards who have to use this to hunt Werewolves."

Right now, alcohol does nothing mechanically very meaningful in the game. It is purely a flavour item, and a not very impactful one at that.

Even if the suggestion initially floated in the thread were doubled in effectiveness (that is to say, d2 damage to DEX, INT, and WIS for +2 against Fear), it would be a bad strategy. 2d2 damage to DEX, INT, and WIS for +4 against Fear is still terrible when the WIS damage is, on average, going to reduce that to +2 and harm all your other stats.

The main purpose of alcohol that would give a small bonus vs. Fear is to exist as a piece of storytelling, so that the people with Potions of Courage (which you can brew from level 2, by the way), +5 vs. Fear gauntlets, stacked save gear/enchanted gear that provides huge bonuses to Will go, "Wow, I'm glad I'm not the poor bastards who have to use this to pass Fear checks."

[Madame Trousers Son]

I am just wary of their becoming a perception that alcohol is a "buff" with that community of players and over glorifying it.

Sure, we can keep it at d2 damage to DEX, INT, and WIS for +1 vs Fear, it would be hard to glorify something so objectively terrible IMO

[noah2515]

Yeah I have zero concerns about giving a completely insignificant fear bonus, just want to make sure we are intentional about any implicit messaging with substances for young players 

[MAB77]

Only speaking as a player here, but after thinking it through further, I agree this bonus would be inconsequential and not worth implementing.

As it is, alcohol is a RP prop and used as such in-game. The D&D rules make it clear that it does not make people braver. It only impairs judgment and mobility. You can already RP the effects of being drunk, such as charging heedlessly in a fight if you will or acting boldly out of character. Just as you could RP it as the depressant it it known as, with your character hit by a maelstrom of emotions it's no longer able to handle (including potentially irrational fear). But I can't logically see it grant any form of protection against magical fear.

Whether using the NWN or D&D implementation, it does not change the fact that characters that would be impacted by the debuffs would continue not to use alcohol in situations where it would penalize them. Right now that only affects INT based classes, but were it to be a hit to WIS & DEX (or just Will & Reflex), pretty much no one would use them at all. Changing a set of debuffs by a different and somewhat harsher one will not make alcohol see more use in-game.

Add the fact that we already have a rather easy entry-level potion you can craft to gain protection vs fear, there is no gain for the server to make any changes to alcohol at this time.

[Madame Trousers Son]

I just want to point out that much of your argument could have been applied to Belladonna spawns.

If we pretend for a moment that Belladonna wasn't on the server, there'd be little mechanical benefit to adding it. How often is Belladonna's mechanical use relevant? Maybe once in a blue moon? Even NCE characters can easily get deflection AC sources. Using Belladonna in GM and (A)MPC scenes could be done through RP. Indeed if anything Belladonna spawns are a bit annoying to players right now since they effectively spoil a herb spawn. But I'd maintain that Belladonna as a mechanic plays a storytelling role.

My central gripe is that I don't think the alcohol mechanic as currently implemented offers much of a storytelling role. I just wish it was more than a pure prop.

[MAB77]

Not really. Belladonna has specific properties in the source material that are not only negative. Though I agree that it would probably be implemented differently were it to be done nowadays.

That does not change the fact that alcohol has no positive benefits as per official D&D rules. That alcohol be a RP prop is perfectly fine as is, but if you look for a more meaningful role, I would not mind making it a crafting component, as a disinfectant, for healing kits. Although even that is unlikely to happen given the ease with which bandages and kits can be bought already.

[Madame Trousers Son]

To be clear, I'm not saying that alcohol being solely a RP prop is unacceptable, just that mechanics can play a role in storytelling and an RP prop is almost by definition an opportunity for that.

[GoldenEars]

The D&D rules make it clear that it does not make people braver. It only impairs judgment and mobility. You can already RP the effects of being drunk, such as charging heedlessly in a fight if you will or acting boldly out of character.

That's a fair point, but

Just as you could RP it as the depressant it it known as, with your character hit by a maelstrom of emotions it's no longer able to handle (including potentially irrational fear). But I can't logically see it grant any form of protection against magical fear.

I don't think that's a realistic statement. Is there any evidence of alcohol itself being the cause for irrational fear in anyone? From what I know, alcohol has always been known to do the opposite: provide courage and lower a person's inhibitions, to pretty much disregard fear, boldly and bravely saying whatever is on a person's mind and taking any actions a person would otherwise be afraid to take.