Rebalance RPXP and CXP

[Talis]

Wait a second. Classes are description of jobs that involve danger and violence. All of them.

I'm not arguing with your wider point, but I disagree with this. Not every Wizard or Cleric is seeking out danger day-by-day. There are definitely classes that in the lore people can attain mastery over with study/training/non adventuring service. I totally get what you are trying to say - but I just feel the need to make that point. Both in lore (mostly NPCs) and in tabletop (when you roll a character higher than level 1, for example) you can do this without breaking the lore.

I absolutely understand that DND is a combat game and the other points people are making. I am not arguing with that. I appreciate that notion, in fact.

[Lexica]

Just to throw my two cents in re villainy and needing to be high level- You really don't need to be. The key is to just not give people opt ins for free.

If you go around obviously threatening and killing people, obviously you're gonna get killed super fast if you can't back that up mechanically. This happens to good aligned characters too when they're super aggro. If you're playing a villain and you're not ready for the heat yet, don't just hand out opt ins to people for free.

Go run your evil cult where you summon demons or eat people, or whatever. If people want to kill you over it, they need to do the work on getting the opt in, which can be extremely non trivial if you don't just hand it to them by jumping to being aggro at them first.

[WitchOfTheCity]

Not to put a damper on anyone's roleplay style, or tell people how to play, it's just a personal opinion of mine that a swordsman who doesn't train with a sword and a spellcaster who doesn't cast any spells shouldn't be advancing fighter or wizard classes with their roleplay levelling progression if they never actually did any of those things.

You can actually roleplay your class using its abilities. How did the wizard learn fourth tier magic by repeatedly casting fireballs?

[Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)]

Not to put a damper on anyone's roleplay style, or tell people how to play, it's just a personal opinion of mine that a swordsman who doesn't train with a sword and a spellcaster who doesn't cast any spells shouldn't be advancing fighter or wizard classes with their roleplay levelling progression if they never actually did any of those things.

You can actually roleplay your class using its abilities. How did the wizard learn fourth tier magic by repeatedly casting fireballs?

Using your mechanical actions IS roleplay. Players are expected to to RP their character in accordance to their statistics and stats.

It's not that the Wizard is casting fireball repeadtly. It's that the Wizard is casting fireball under stress at difficult enemies trying to kill the Wizard. In the process of this training the Wizard is not just regurgitating complex magic incantations under stress but is also practicing positioning, and strategy.

[myrddraal]

Not to put a damper on anyone's roleplay style, or tell people how to play, it's just a personal opinion of mine that a swordsman who doesn't train with a sword and a spellcaster who doesn't cast any spells shouldn't be advancing fighter or wizard classes with their roleplay levelling progression if they never actually did any of those things.

You can actually roleplay your class using its abilities. How did the wizard learn fourth tier magic by repeatedly casting fireballs?

Contemplating different manipulation of the mystical energy they weave with new magical words and gestures and mastering new revelations.  I say this kind of thing on my wizard when I do play them.  "I have been vexxed by X scroll and cant fully comprehend it yet.  I require further mastery of my abilities and perhaps I will have an epiphany."

[zDark Shadowz]

You can actually roleplay your class using its abilities. How did the wizard learn fourth tier magic by repeatedly casting fireballs?

There's no point going to extremes when I'm focusing on the arbitrary when it's not taken to that degree. I've no qualms with extreme roleplay scenarios of combat vs extreme combat scenarios of roleplay.

It's the tea and biscuits until one learns ethereal jaunt in two months where I'm thinking "why"?

In retrospect perhaps my preference for XP just lies outside of "combat" and "roleplay" and would prefer class-specific XP gated behind an array of related tasks. Not the topic of the original post though so I'll just drop it there, only posting because people were quoting me.

[Maffa]

Wait a second. Classes are description of jobs that involve danger and violence. All of them.

I'm not arguing with your wider point, but I disagree with this. Not every Wizard or Cleric is seeking out danger day-by-day. There are definitely classes that in the lore people can attain mastery over with study/training/non adventuring service. I totally get what you are trying to say - but I just feel the need to make that point. Both in lore (mostly NPCs) and in tabletop (when you roll a character higher than level 1, for example) you can do this without breaking the lore.

I absolutely understand that DND is a combat game and the other points people are making. I am not arguing with that. I appreciate that notion, in fact.

I can rephrase my statement to soften it, saying that classes (especially in this point&click video game) are a descriptor on how a class can cope with danger and conflict. Different classes have different avenues, and different options when faced with the situation of "You have a goblin in front of you". But the point remains: classes are adventuring jobs, with tools that are focused on adventuring problem resolutions.

Then I do agree with you with the fact that some of these "classes" could and/or should also thrive in a non adventuring scenario, problem is there is no tool provided in the D&D system. It's an age old theme in tabletop D&D and probably roleplay in general, sometimes related to the "Xp vs milestone levelling" campaign style aka "How come these bunch of misfits just stumbled upon each other last month in a tavern and now they can challenge the most skilled of my generals and dare to compare to the magic of an eternal lich such as I?".

If you take the D&D system that has been designed to work as "campaign", with a start and an end, already showing signs of fatigue, and put it in a 24/7 MMORPGsandbox system, you can see how shorter the blanket becomes, meaning D&D is definitely not a good system for a perpetual game style. In a year, an acolyte raiding the sewers can be as powerful as old man Mugur which is a bishop in the Church of Ezra that might (or might not) have spent all his life praying and pondering over the Revelations -maybe he should've divined the answer in the intestines of desert trolls, who knows? Fact is, you can only force the system so much. In a way, making it so that said acolyte can become as "powerful" as Mugur even without going raiding doesn't solve the problem, it just creates another.

[Talis]

If you hadn't linked that video I would have! I think we basically agree. However even in our system, someone can get to higher levels on pure RP XP, so it's still plausible here at least to do it 'the non adventuring way.' I don't see the harm in making it a little more viable, but it wouldn't change my playstyle as I said earlier.

I'm a milestone DM, myself.

[MAB77]

It's difficult to balance these things out. We could change some values in regards to XP but ultimately that boils down only to preferences and we'd only be moving goalposts as to how best to achieve a given result.

The current set up is already a compromise that allows diverging playstyles to coexist. We already adjusted RPXP not too long ago, and, when a player takes the time to do a bit of both, RP and dungeonning, the pace of progression becomes the one we intended for the server.

The only change I would do is to have blind drive decrease only when a character is on-line. Because I find it unfair that a player dodges the effect of a mechanic meant to discourage grinding by just going and grind on a different character while others make the effort of roleplaying it out as it is meant to be on a RP server.

[Limine]

It's difficult to balance these things out. We could change some values in regards to XP but ultimately that boils down only to preferences and we'd only be moving goalposts as to how best to achieve a given result.

The current set up is already a compromise that allows diverging playstyles to coexist. We already adjusted RPXP not too long ago, and, when a player takes the time to do a bit of both, RP and dungeonning, the pace of progression becomes the one we intended for the server.

The only change I would do is to have blind drive decrease only when a character is on-line. Because I find it unfair that a player dodges the side effect of a mechanic meant to discourage grinding by just going and grind on a different character while others make the effort of roleplaying it out as it is meant to be on a RP server.

While I understand this view, can you at least understand my opinion and the opinion of MANY people in this thread that the de-emphasizing of roleplay on a roleplay server is frustrating? And that maybe it deserves a little more of a reward?

I would be for the change you described, but that would actually significantly limit people's ability to gather CXP, especially people like me with less playtime than others. Would the devs be willing to discuss making this change (no cap decrease while offline) alongside another boost to RPXP? I think that could be a good change, so that even if people gather CXP slower they're encouraged to RP and not have to slow down entirely in progression, while at the same time people like me who are going to struggle to get off cap when we have less hours to play can fill our time with RP and still feel rewarded.

I understand your point that things were tweaked recently, but how recently? And was that communicated to the players?

Personally, regardless of how recently the tweak was, I think the current balance is way off. I still haven't gained another level since that one dungeon run I did during NCE. It's been over a week, with several days of 6+ hours of roleplay.

[FinalHeaven]

It's difficult to balance these things out. We could change some values in regards to XP but ultimately that boils down only to preferences and we'd only be moving goalposts as to how best to achieve a given result.

The current set up is already a compromise that allows diverging playstyles to coexist. We already adjusted RPXP not too long ago, and, when a player takes the time to do a bit of both, RP and dungeonning, the pace of progression becomes the one we intended for the server.

The only change I would do is to have blind drive decrease only when a character is on-line. Because I find it unfair that a player dodges the side effect of a mechanic meant to discourage grinding by just going and grind on a different character while others make the effort of roleplaying it out as it is meant to be on a RP server.

While I understand this view, can you at least understand my opinion and the opinion of MANY people in this thread that the de-emphasizing of roleplay on a roleplay server is frustrating? And that maybe it deserves a little more of a reward?

I would be for the change you described, but that would actually significantly limit people's ability to gather CXP, especially people like me with less playtime than others. Would the devs be willing to discuss making this change (no cap decrease while offline) alongside another boost to RPXP? I think that could be a good change, so that even if people gather CXP slower they're encouraged to RP and not have to slow down entirely in progression, while at the same time people like me who are going to struggle to get off cap when we have less hours to play can fill our time with RP and still feel rewarded.

I understand your point that things were tweaked recently, but how recently? And was that communicated to the players?

Personally, regardless of how recently the tweak was, I think the current balance is way off. I still haven't gained another level since that one dungeon run I did during NCE. It's been over a week, with several days of 6+ hours of roleplay.

This is where the disconnect for me is at least and where you start to lose me.

You say it's been over a week with several days including 6+ hours of roleplay but if you just replace the word "roleplay" with "play" I'd be willing to bet you're pretty close to the average POTM player these days, or at least a good chunk of them.

Obviously 6+ hours of roleplay is great!  However, the people leveling faster are the people that are mixing it up in those 6 hours with a bit of dungeoning and a bit of roleplay (and likely off handedly roleplaying in said dungeon) and while it's fine that you might not enjoy dungeons as much as everyone else I just don't really see why they should be punished for your choice.  We can argue about whether or not it's really a punishment when you want RP XP to be increased as well, sure, but I think it's missing the point.

We're playing Dungeons and Dragons and while the way people play that game has certainly changed over the years the core concept is being maintained, at least on POTM.  The overall stance of the staff appears to be a balanced approach.  Quite honestly I can't think of a single popular, well known server even in the 1.68 days that offered RPXP higher than Combat XP, and more often than not in the early days an automated RPXP system was a luxury rather than the norm.

All that said I think if anything is to change it should just be a noticeable boost to RPXP itself.  And removing the RPXP cap in Western Barovia, of course, I'll never shut up about that.

[Limine]

Please don't make assumptions about my play - when did I ever say I don't prefer dungeons? I actually pretty clearly stated I enjoy dungeoning.

The problem is actually to do with the character I'm playing right now. It's extremely difficult to get away from the roleplay to get to a dungeon even if I want to.

Regardless, I feel like that pressure shouldn't exist and people who primarily roleplay shouldn't be as far behind as they are.

Also, even if you can't point to another server that offered more roleplay xp (I'm not so sure that's true, btw, I can point to one right now), that doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented here.

Also, once more, the point of this thread is that it is NOT balanced right now. It's extremely imbalanced in favor of combat XP. "The accepted intended levelling speed" is not attainable for people who dungeon less for whatever reason.

[apeppertoo]

People who invest in advancing their character's combat capabilities do and should advance faster. Those who roleplay well while doing so should be rewarded for it.

Status quo is fine.

[FinalHeaven]

Please don't make assumptions about my play - when did I ever say I don't prefer dungeons? I actually pretty clearly stated I enjoy dungeoning.

The problem is actually to do with the character I'm playing right now. It's extremely difficult to get away from the roleplay to get to a dungeon even if I want to.

Regardless, I feel like that pressure shouldn't exist and people who primarily roleplay shouldn't be as far behind as they are.

Also, even if you can't point to another server that offered more roleplay xp (I'm not so sure that's true, btw, I can point to one right now), that doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented here.

Also, once more, the point of this thread is that it is NOT balanced right now. It's extremely imbalanced in favor of combat XP. "The accepted intended levelling speed" is not attainable for people who dungeon less for whatever reason.

My apologies, I mismatched statements with someone else!  Still, that's a choice of character and I don't think others should see a hit because of that.

I didn't say that other servers don't offer more RPXP as a number received than POTM does, I said that I can't think of a popular, well known server over the years that has offered more RP XP than you can get from Combat XP.  Most of them are designed like POTM where the dungeoning experience is a fairly standard D&D-esque style and then RPXP is an added boon on top.  I'm pretty confident that out of the top servers right now, certainly, the majority of them are designed in a similar way.  Do you mind sharing which server it is that gives more RPXP than what can be achieved from combat, or by doing both?

Obviously POTM can, and arguably should be different, but my point is more that it's a fairly common setup because I think most servers are attempting to emulate the core D&D theme to some extent.

I should clarify that when I referred to a balanced approach I didn't mean a perfectly level scale, as that's really not often how the design works.  Our Classes aren't perfectly balanced, for instance.  I just meant that the POTM staff clearly promotes and wants to find a system of doing things that fits their desired leveling intent whilst also catering to the standard D&D concept and various playstyles as much as possible.

[MAB77]

While I understand this view, can you at least understand my opinion and the opinion of MANY people in this thread that the de-emphasizing of roleplay on a roleplay server is frustrating? And that maybe it deserves a little more of a reward? [...]

And can you understand that emphasizing RP is exactly what I do? I simply disagree with the premise that more RPXP is the way to do it.

I am convinced that this server would be better served with slower progression and less high level characters around. I am convinced we should cap at level 15, or failing that, that a 6 months timer for closure should kick in upon reaching level 15. I am convinced that this server is better enjoyed between levels 10 and 15, and that higher levels are pointless except if one insists on becoming an unstoppable deus ex machina (a state I find dreadfully boring). That it is at its best when it is challenging with a risk of failure in every endeavors. That stories are better served when roleplaye is done without care for levels or loot. And above all that RP is its own reward and does not even require XP to begin with. Roleplay does not require levels, great stories can be told any time. It's great that we have RPXP, I love it, but I also think what we gain now is sufficient, both what we get automatically, and what DMs grant when they notice great RP. I believe that you don't need levels if you don't do dungeons. It's not even relevant in PvP. If someone wants you dead you'll get ganked regardless of your level. And if you want someone dead, you can hire others to do the dirty job regardless of your level. I am also convinced that getting up to level 12 is more than reasonably fast as is now, and that is all that matter. It's a non-issue for greater levels to take forever. Just RP it out and it will come in due time. It's also an absolute non-issue that others be savvy enough to level up faster that I do myself, their gameplay do not hinder mine, and they may even contribute positively to my own RP attempts sometimes.

But again, all the above are only my preferences and point of views. And while I know many players thinking like me, I am also aware of those that are dreadfully opposed to the above views, and so I do not seek to impose them on others. I would be thankful that you do not attempt to impose your own views on others either.

We're still a D&D server, we try to foster an environment which favors RP, and that is why we keep progression slow, so that character growth and development be done organically through the shared narratives of our stories. Yet a D&D server we still are, and an healthy dose of dungeoning is expected nonetheless. And so it is that the current system is calibrated to do a bit of both. And when you do both, you will progress at the intended pace.

[RedMoney]

Get rid of exp from combat and RP and just level PCs the same way aMPCs level. The only way to make exp not matter is to remove it as something that can be gained by performing a task.

[MAB77]

Get rid of exp from combat and RP and just level PCs the same way aMPCs level. The only way to make exp not matter is to remove it as something that can be gained by performing a task.

I very much like the idea, but then the problem with this is that the challenges faced stop being relevant, and it favors those that can put in more time in the game.

While being able to do so is already an advantage on its own, at least the current system grants a bonus to those that cannot be logged as often by granting some increased XP if they progress more slowly than others, and offers greater rewards when a challenge is faced in its intended levels.

[FinalHeaven]

Get rid of exp from combat and RP and just level PCs the same way aMPCs level. The only way to make exp not matter is to remove it as something that can be gained by performing a task.

I very much like the idea, but then the problem with this is that the challenges faced stop being relevant, and it favors those that can put in more time in the game.

While being able to do so is already an advantage on its own, at least the current system grants a bonus to those that cannot be logged as often by granting some increased XP if they progress more slowly than others, and offers greater rewards when a challenge is faced in its intended levels.

It's not a bad concept but I'm not sure how one could swing it this far along in the server's life though.

Speaking purely from a mechanics/scripting standpoint a catch-up mechanic for those who can't log as much time would be possible, with a bit of of fine tuning. It probably wouldn't end up being any more perfect than the current system in the long run though.

[Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)]

Get rid of exp from combat and RP and just level PCs the same way aMPCs level. The only way to make exp not matter is to remove it as something that can be gained by performing a task.

I very much like the idea, but then the problem with this is that the challenges faced stop being relevant, and it favors those that can put in more time in the game.

While being able to do so is already an advantage on its own, at least the current system grants a bonus to those that cannot be logged as often by granting some increased XP if they progress more slowly than others, and offers greater rewards when a challenge is faced in its intended levels.

It's not a bad concept but I'm not sure how one could swing it this far along in the server's life though.

Speaking purely from a mechanics/scripting standpoint a catch-up mechanic for those who can't log as much time would be possible, with a bit of of fine tuning. It probably wouldn't end up being any more perfect than the current system in the long run though.

I'd honestly just shut down the server at that point 

[myrddraal]

The only advancement that needs hastening is the path to becoming a dark lord   Unfortunately a bunch of goobers farming DP checks murdering orphans ruined it for everyone.

[RedMoney]

Get rid of exp from combat and RP and just level PCs the same way aMPCs level. The only way to make exp not matter is to remove it as something that can be gained by performing a task.

I very much like the idea, but then the problem with this is that the challenges faced stop being relevant, and it favors those that can put in more time in the game.

While being able to do so is already an advantage on its own, at least the current system grants a bonus to those that cannot be logged as often by granting some increased XP if they progress more slowly than others, and offers greater rewards when a challenge is faced in its intended levels.

I'm sure there is a way to do a sliding scale where progression occurs with diminished returns as playtime increases past a certain threshold.

[Shinnareth]

As a relatively new player, I do think RPxp should be buffed - it could only encourage more RP.