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Author Topic: Monster behavior & Aggro Control  (Read 1068 times)

Greasus Goldtooth (Birdman)

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Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« on: September 28, 2024, 10:06:00 PM »
I've mentioned it before in other threads but I'd like to bring special attention to the topic of aggro.

It is really frustrating to play a melee chasing after enemies chasing after ranged characters. It's probably even more frustrating for the ranged characters who seemingly have to stop everything they are doing and run around like a chicken with its head cut off and its feathers on fire instead of playing their character.

I'd like to request a feat, a skill function, or an item... something that manipulates the way enemy aggro is drawn or utilized.

The current system that I see is simply 'the monsters go after the character with the least AC'. Except how would they even know that? There is no guarantee that the man with a sword and shield is going to necessarily have more or less AC. You could say "Oh well they clearly see the armor" and yet if a Monk with more AC than an armored Martial steps into fight it will go after the armored martial instead. So the monsters are meta-gaming  :mrgreen:

I would like to suggest a few ideas...

1. Selectable feat that works with Antagonize as a means of drawing and ensuring enemy aggression. Could be like Taunt but with a higher DC.

2. Grant a new purpose to a skill (Maybe Influence?) that attacker must roll for each round they are in combat with a monster and provided they pass the dice check they will not draw aggro from the creature being fought unless the first character the monster had engaged with has disengaged. Bonus: Rogues, Assassins, Shadow Dancers can get a version of this that works with their Hide or Move Silently (Whichever is higher) instead.

3. Item made from Skunk Stink Sacs with the Alchemy craft that can be used on player armor to exhibit a terrible smell that keeps monsters away. Does not work on ranged combatants.

McNastea

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2024, 10:18:19 PM »
You used to be able to provoke an AoO to force an enemy in to attacking you and sticking on you. This way years and years ago, mind you, and afaik was never an intentional thing. But at some point that stopped and I hate it. I agree the way it works now is awful. I think there should be instances in which an enemy decides to switch to another target, but the way it works now isn't it. If the behaviour isn't gonna be changed then giving players tools to force aggro at least for a time should be considered. These are neat ideas, I think antagonize on it's own could work just fine as well - don't see the need to modify it. For some things you need to invest fully and gear for antagonize on it's own already, though that's admittedly not very many things.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2024, 11:26:19 PM »
Several other servers use a similar system. I think Arelith has a shield function for shielded characters to be able to essentially be beside another character, and be their 'shield', forcing AI aggro on them if targeting other person.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2024, 09:23:50 AM »
+1

It comes to a point in which while discussing builds people say "oh, archers are useless: they get aggroed and need to remain the whole battle running".
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McDuck

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2024, 09:39:03 AM »
Skill issue! And just kidding


To my understanding it they target the lowest ac of the group.

Wich often the archers are the ones. But also the dmg output is larger then most.

looking at certain archer builds who are mainly fighters.

To keep agro ther are a few tricks to it. Knockdown works on most enemies. To keep them from fleeying away.

Other trick is. To tell the archer to keep in the midle of the group. Keep tight formations.

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Alalaurealarialelia

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2024, 10:19:38 AM »
I am not sure if the ideas from this thread so far would be feasible but I would like to add that recently, monsters seem to have a weird way of determining threats.

If I fight a monster in melee as a martial and behind me a concealed caster casts a spell, there is a high chance the monster will abandon fighting me to run to the source of the noise, giving me free attacks of opportunity. I do believe it may be rather possible to exploit this system a lot, so a look into keeping aggro on martials may actually be needed.

Greasus Goldtooth (Birdman)

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2024, 11:29:40 AM »
If I fight a monster in melee as a martial and behind me a concealed caster casts a spell, there is a high chance the monster will abandon fighting me to run to the source of the noise, giving me free attacks of opportunity. I do believe it may be rather possible to exploit this system a lot, so a look into keeping aggro on martials may actually be needed.

I'm not sure this should be happening while caster is invisible. I'd have to know the full context of this scenario though to really give the best opinion on it.

It comes to a point in which while discussing builds people say "oh, archers are useless: they get aggroed and need to remain the whole battle running".

A friend was telling me just yesterday that they quit their Arcane Archer PC because of how annoying the aggro got. It boils down to player experience too. Players make characters built around ranged attack so that way they can use their ranged weapons.

You used to be able to provoke an AoO to force an enemy in to attacking you and sticking on you. This way years and years ago, mind you, and afaik was never an intentional thing. But at some point that stopped and I hate it. I agree the way it works now is awful. I think there should be instances in which an enemy decides to switch to another target, but the way it works now isn't it. If the behaviour isn't gonna be changed then giving players tools to force aggro at least for a time should be considered. These are neat ideas, I think antagonize on it's own could work just fine as well - don't see the need to modify it. For some things you need to invest fully and gear for antagonize on it's own already, though that's admittedly not very many things.

Some enemies may move too fast for that mechanic to work but I think that would be nice to have. Something more interactive would allow players to enjoy making plans and strategies IC.

I mention ranged characters mainly in this thread but a lot of players also want to flank in melee with their sneak attack characters. This has been another failed experience for players who enter combat to make use of their class features only to get punished for it without some kind of skill or ability that could have prevented that.

Antagonize would be a great tool for tougher characters to be able to engage more with the mobs and giving martials something more to do than "click enemy", "click enemy at door frame and hope NWN's wonderful (shoddy) combat system doesn't push your PC out the door"

Either a means of tankier martials securing monster aggro or a means of attackers avoiding aggro.

Several other servers use a similar system. I think Arelith has a shield function for shielded characters to be able to essentially be beside another character, and be their 'shield', forcing AI aggro on them if targeting other person.

This would actually be an ideal change. It would help with melee flankers immensely ranged attackers might still be at a disadvantge.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2024, 09:11:18 PM »
Dutiful Guardian / Constant Guardian feats, Knight class cursory plugins.

Greasus Goldtooth (Birdman)

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2024, 01:06:51 AM »
Dutiful Guardian / Constant Guardian feats, Knight class cursory plugins.

Adding some of the Knight class features as feats would be a great idea considering that Fighter and Knight kind of overlap conceptually so Knight is less likely to be seen as a class. Fighters are meant to be trained soldiers... and knights incidentally are as well (although not all Fighters are Knights).

cooachlyfe

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2024, 01:26:52 PM »
Problem with features like these is I forsee more cheese that could and would be done with it and makes it feel more mmo-y, which I think goes against the spirit of the server. If a more lightly armored target draws the ire of a beast by shooting an arrow at its head, or a fireball at its body, it better be ready to deal with the consequences. Can always use things like grease, web, entangle to slow down things from getting to you and there are items you can cast these spells from without UMD. I personally rarely if ever had a problem. It's all about the timing and how much damage you're doing.

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2024, 02:31:48 PM »
I'm not a fan of anything that locks a mob onto a certain target. As a DM in my table top games, I will specifically target someone who's potentially more dangerous than the beefy tanky character trying to soak an the damage. It's what any reasonably intelligent monster would do.

Nwn is pretty annoying though so I get the complaint. Some of it is playing more carefully as a ranged character in lighter armor. Some of it is just old game mechanics.

One of the things I liked about 5e was the many ways to impose a disadvantage to your foe for not attacking a certain character. If this could be applied somehow, I'd like that. But otherwise, I'm ok with things as they are. There's a learning curve involved.

Disclaimer: I've not ventured into any of the really high level areas but for a select few times, so do take my commentary with an appropriate grain if salt

myrddraal

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2024, 02:50:34 PM »
I'm not a fan of anything that locks a mob onto a certain target. As a DM in my table top games, I will specifically target someone who's potentially more dangerous than the beefy tanky character trying to soak an the damage. It's what any reasonably intelligent monster would do.

Nwn is pretty annoying though so I get the complaint. Some of it is playing more carefully as a ranged character in lighter armor. Some of it is just old game mechanics.

One of the things I liked about 5e was the many ways to impose a disadvantage to your foe for not attacking a certain character. If this could be applied somehow, I'd like that. But otherwise, I'm ok with things as they are. There's a learning curve involved.

Disclaimer: I've not ventured into any of the really high level areas but for a select few times, so do take my commentary with an appropriate grain if salt

In DM controlled scenarios this can still be done.  Though a vast majority of content is not DM run so having the ability to taunt enemies like in basically any other MMO, which is basically how the scripted PVE content is run, would be a net bonus.  Especially if it cost a feat.  I'd love if there was an AOE taunt that required say...15 antagonize.  Thats a steep investment of skill points and a feat.

Greasus Goldtooth (Birdman)

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2024, 06:53:13 PM »
Problem with features like these is I forsee more cheese that could and would be done with it and makes it feel more mmo-y, which I think goes against the spirit of the server.

The server has already resigned to being some what of an MMO. There's a grind to it all and players will run the same dungeon 3-10 times a week sometimes. We can get into the discussion of what is actually at these dungeon locations and the actual IC nature of it all; all of that is a huge huge debate that this thread isn't for. Players IC will have to IC justify hiring people to run the same dungeons-- people talk about going to Shipwreck like they talk about going to their local pub for a drink LOL

I don't think denying players quality of life for the sake of immersion/trying to declare itself a 'non-mmo' when it 100% is an mmo type game is necessarily the answer. At the end of the day the true spirit of the server is 'having fun'. You're supposed to have fun. This is leisure time, this is a hobby, it's a game, it's fun. If we want to get into the hard-core realistic RP of it all then every sword swing, arrow shot, spell cast, etc is probably killing the recipient in a single blow. No one gets hit by a two handed sword and lives.

It's fine every so often to remember that it's just a game, infact I'd say it's healthy to do so.

I'm not a fan of anything that locks a mob onto a certain target. As a DM in my table top games, I will specifically target someone who's potentially more dangerous than the beefy tanky character trying to soak an the damage. It's what any reasonably intelligent monster would do.

So not all monsters fit the bill on this. I actually considered making this a 'Monster AI' thread in general because a lot of the monsters behave rather strangely... for example if you do enough damage to a Maddened Zombie in the crypts. It will run away. Mindless undead, but it will run away in fear. It's not supposed to do that lol

In fact all of the monsters do that. It might be a big ask to request certain AI functions per creatures but there are monsters that behave so strangely compared to how you'd think they'd act.

On this I would partially agree though. In most Online RPG's (Don't want to say the M word around here even if it is pretty much true); monsters will switch targets after receiving a certain damage threshold from a particular source. I find it really odd and kind of meta though that the monsters automatically somehow know player AC; and of course the players don't know player AC.

There's a learning curve involved.

It's really not a matter of a learning curve because there isn't anything to learn other than "don't play ranged, you'll have a bad time". The aggro draws are instantaneous and they aren't based off of information that monster would readily have. like if a high ac ranged character started firing at a monster after a lower ac melee stepped in to fight; the monster won't switch targets because it somehow knows (meta-gaming) that the ranged PC has more AC... but if you reverse the situation a melee with AC enters combat and immediately after a low ac ranged starts firing; the monster will immediately jump to the archer.

So the monster isn't attacking the 'archer' it's attacking the character with the lower AC which incidentally happens to be ranged characters because many ranged weapons don't allow use of a shield and do not benefit from parry so ultimately they end up with less AC.

The monsters know exactly who has what AC but the players don't. Weird isn't it? and their behavior changes on a dime. It'd be one thing if flanking PCs and ranged PCs had the aggro shifted after not doing enough damage within a window of time but that's not the case. The monsters automatically just know.

In DM controlled scenarios this can still be done.  Though a vast majority of content is not DM run so having the ability to taunt enemies like in basically any other MMO, which is basically how the scripted PVE content is run, would be a net bonus.  Especially if it cost a feat.  I'd love if there was an AOE taunt that required say...15 antagonize.  Thats a steep investment of skill points and a feat.

I mean I'd be happy to have something like that, I'm not sure 15 antagonize is necessary for it; I think players wanting to 'tank' should simply be allowed to AoE taunt monsters around them; other players would have a time limit to kill these monsters before the taunt wears off; and the taunt itself would be on a cool down that is slightly longer than the taunt duration.

reward groups for working together by targeting the same monster; and then the monsters can punish players who don't work together.

myrddraal

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2024, 07:50:22 PM »
I think some sort of antagonize investment makes sense for taunting enemies.  Antagonizing them into attacking you in anger, if you will.  It makes sense on an in character and out of character level.  15 ranks is also only level 12, which is relatively early.  I could see 10 ranks as well, which would still be a good investment and accessible at level 7 for more use out of the feat.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2024, 09:37:05 PM »
I'm not a fan of anything that locks a mob onto a certain target. As a DM in my table top games, I will specifically target someone who's potentially more dangerous than the beefy tanky character trying to soak an the damage. It's what any reasonably intelligent monster would do.

Even if the players have class abilities or feats that say "hey, you should target me" after an appropriate check or saving throw?

Maffa

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2024, 12:03:52 PM »
It certainly makes sense that the baseline mob AI should be targeting the closest target rather than the farthest one, even if only to knock them down and/or shove them aside in order to reach the one that is actually griefing me more (if and when it actually happens, btw, which is to be demonstrated). It's what I would do as a person, and there could be exceptions, but going around and giving your back to an enemy in front of you in order to reach another is anything but the baseline.

Then it makes totally sense employing antagonize as a skill to create aggro against wisdom or intelligence.

Problem with features like these is I forsee more cheese that could and would be done with it and makes it feel more mmo-y, which I think goes against the spirit of the server. If a more lightly armored target draws the ire of a beast by shooting an arrow at its head, or a fireball at its body, it better be ready to deal with the consequences. Can always use things like grease, web, entangle to slow down things from getting to you and there are items you can cast these spells from without UMD. I personally rarely if ever had a problem. It's all about the timing and how much damage you're doing.

The PVE combat system is above and beyond any concerns around roleplay. if I play fighter or ranger or rogue, I have expectations on my roles and positioning depending on how reasonably I expect a battleground to actually function.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 12:47:45 PM by Maffa »


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RedMoney

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2024, 01:03:46 PM »
Monsters with intelligence picking out soft targets isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't make sense for mindless creatures.  If the level of tactics used by monsters could be made to scale with their actual Int scores, that would be cool. 

I don't think it's fair to call taunting monsters and"MMO" thing, since it makes sense in a real combat situation to try to distract an enemy through a wide number of tricks or mind games depending on the situation. There's not a great way to implement that level of creative/cinematic combat in our automated system though.

That said, I think an easy way to implement a favorable change would be to allow the Antagonize skill to make a person's perceived AC be lower to NPC monsters so that they are more likely to attack whats directly in front of them. For example every 5 ranks in Antagonize makes a PC appear to have 1 less AC for purposes of targeting.
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Greasus Goldtooth (Birdman)

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2024, 01:28:41 PM »
Monsters with intelligence picking out soft targets isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't make sense for mindless creatures.  If the level of tactics used by monsters could be made to scale with their actual Int scores, that would be cool.

See my whole thing is 'how would they even know?'. It's possible for a dex based no armor no shield character to possibly have more AC; but in that fighting scenario the monster will inexplicably choose the guy with the armor meanwhile when the tables are reversed the monster will suddenly go for the guy in a t-shirt that is less dodgy.

This is why I say the monsters are meta-gaming  :mrgreen:

That said, I think an easy way to implement a favorable change would be to allow the Antagonize skill to make a person's perceived AC be lower to NPC monsters so that they are more likely to attack whats directly in front of them. For example every 5 ranks in Antagonize makes a PC appear to have 1 less AC for purposes of targeting.

I think the numbers would have to potentially be tweaked on that but that is a good idea. Maybe 2 less AC for purposes of targeting? or feats that increase this mechanic and make it easier for tanks to tank?

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2024, 07:28:53 PM »
Another thing is, we're not talking about the creature being entirely at-will here, but rather a potential feat which allows a fighter or otherwise to impede or prevent the monster from disengaging, or engaging freely; Whether it's by literally being the shield of the protected character directly at his flank, or by managing to block the creature's path.

Trygve

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2024, 08:41:53 PM »
Taunting doesn't really make sense to me personally, I would prefer for it to not be a mechanic here.

I tend to use the Examine Tool from my hot-bar to pick out creatures stats and see what armor they are wearing, so it definitely makes sense for enemies to pick out the less defensive characters to attack as a priority when one can reasonably assume that the monsters are capable of using their senses in the same way that player characters are.

RedMoney

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2024, 08:43:26 PM »
Monsters with intelligence picking out soft targets isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't make sense for mindless creatures.  If the level of tactics used by monsters could be made to scale with their actual Int scores, that would be cool.

See my whole thing is 'how would they even know?'. It's possible for a dex based no armor no shield character to possibly have more AC; but in that fighting scenario the monster will inexplicably choose the guy with the armor meanwhile when the tables are reversed the monster will suddenly go for the guy in a t-shirt that is less dodgy.

This is why I say the monsters are meta-gaming  :mrgreen:

That said, I think an easy way to implement a favorable change would be to allow the Antagonize skill to make a person's perceived AC be lower to NPC monsters so that they are more likely to attack whats directly in front of them. For example every 5 ranks in Antagonize makes a PC appear to have 1 less AC for purposes of targeting.

I think the numbers would have to potentially be tweaked on that but that is a good idea. Maybe 2 less AC for purposes of targeting? or feats that increase this mechanic and make it easier for tanks to tank?


Maybe 1 per 5 points instead of 5 ranks so that gear matters. I'm not the numbers/balance guy by any means though.

For the monsters, I think there are some that would be highly intelligent and able to discern a target's AC, especially if they have class levels that reflect combat training/military tactics.  The Sithican undead come to mind, those are elite undead warriors that had centuries to master tactics even before becoming undead.
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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2024, 08:01:15 AM »
I don't know what your doing if your not knowndowning your enemy's to protect the back line.

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2024, 10:50:41 AM »
It makes sense to allow antagonize (taunt) to distract enemies and attract their focus -- it is a staple meme in most fantasy books/movies/shows ("come after me you smelly idiot!").  It is a concentration roll, though, so if we want to mimic a high intelligence monster maintaining their focus/discipline and continuing to attack the weak, then perhaps you just boost the concentration check for those types of monsters so they ignore your effort.  Stupid monsters, on the other hand, should be more easy to distract.  If you have the effect last 5 rounds, then the monster can reacquire its preferred target per its normal AI.


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Maffa

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2024, 01:11:26 PM »
Just repeating myself tho. The baseline should be you first deal with the enemy in front of you, period. Going after anybody else should be a rare exception (ruled by skills, stats, outstanding damage output), not the rule.


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Greasus Goldtooth (Birdman)

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Re: Monster behavior & Aggro Control
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2024, 01:21:33 PM »
Another thing is, we're not talking about the creature being entirely at-will here, but rather a potential feat which allows a fighter or otherwise to impede or prevent the monster from disengaging, or engaging freely; Whether it's by literally being the shield of the protected character directly at his flank, or by managing to block the creature's path.

Correct. What is being suggested on an IC level is the ability to interact with enemies or allies in such a way that manipulates the flow of battle. It makes the whole thing so much more interesting as well since we are now not reducing melee combat to: "I click enemy and watch die.".

Maybe 1 per 5 points instead of 5 ranks so that gear matters. I'm not the numbers/balance guy by any means though.

For the monsters, I think there are some that would be highly intelligent and able to discern a target's AC, especially if they have class levels that reflect combat training/military tactics.  The Sithican undead come to mind, those are elite undead warriors that had centuries to master tactics even before becoming undead.

That's not too bad maybe with a feat it becomes 2 per 5 points from 1 per 5 points.

This is very true though. Monster AI should be dictated by monster intelligence; it would make sense for The Sithican undead to be able to pick out more tactically optimal targets. Where creatures like werewolves, ghouls, and others maybe not so much. Some creatures are way too smart or sentient for what they should be like the zombies or insects.

I don't know what your doing if your not knowndowning your enemy's to protect the back line.

This really isn't a solution and isn't something that can be easily gauged. KD only lasts a round and it relies on an attacking characters ability to attack rather than defend. If a character is attempting to hold a line they should be doing just that: hold a line.

In the strategy you suggest... Melee has to KD enemy, only after KDing can the ranged attack people engage and they probably won't be able to do so for their full round, and then the creature gets up. That KD can actually reset their aggro so they'll end up targeting ranged more quickly lol

It makes sense to allow antagonize (taunt) to distract enemies and attract their focus -- it is a staple meme in most fantasy books/movies/shows ("come after me you smelly idiot!").  It is a concentration roll, though, so if we want to mimic a high intelligence monster maintaining their focus/discipline and continuing to attack the weak, then perhaps you just boost the concentration check for those types of monsters so they ignore your effort.  Stupid monsters, on the other hand, should be more easy to distract.  If you have the effect last 5 rounds, then the monster can reacquire its preferred target per its normal AI.

Yes and it is an aspect of multiple D&D Classes including Knight and Jester