RP Hotzones

[OccamsClub]

Some XP chat lead to this idea - The module has a lot of mini-hub areas that are underutilised and tend to lack a consistent crowd to hang around with.

What if every, say, RL week, there was a new zone chosen to gain some RP XP changes - For instance, giving higher levels XP for being there if it's a low level one, or a small (maybe even like, as small as 10%) boost to those who are there. The important thing being, it's a stated spot that, this week, should have more activity in it that conventional server dynamics simply don't support.

Not so much that missing out on it would be bad - after all, people shouldn't go places that make no IC sense just for the hotzone boost. But if you're playing a dwarf and it rolls around to, say, Dvergeheim, that's a perfect opportunity to really bring some life to an area of the module that's normally just NPCs and whoever you specifically wandered there with, rarely interspersed by someone doing some crafting or deliveries.

Come for the XP bonus, stay because a lot of people also came for that and set up RP opportunities and merchant efforts and faction activities and all that good stuff.

Can't wait for a big active community in BEREZ. B-town is where it's at.

[Snarling_Badger]

Even if it wasn’t rotating, I think this could be a good idea if places such as taverns, and other settlement centers that should be natural congregation centers gave a small bonus to RP XP.

[OccamsClub]

I mean, then the most prominent tavern would become a natural fit, is the thing. There's a lot of hubs that don't support a population properly because they're not central enough. There's so many taverns and inns that don't have good crowds. A lift of areas that the server auto-rotates through and touches a spotlight into a new spot every week might freshen things up a bit. You might log in and decide to walk somewhere other than the Vallaki Outskirts to look for an adventure group.

[myrddraal]

While I do think we should have RP in more places than just the outskirts and ports hidey holes, I think it should come about more organically.  Actually find cool places and bring people to them to RP.  I dont like the idea of putting RP hot zones in just another tavern.  Theres already like twelve taverns in Vallaki and 2 of them see steady RP, the gaping wound when its open and the ladies rest and maybe another PC run tavern.  Theres too many taverns to keep the RP interesting IMO.

[Cyber Viking]

There should be no RP hot zones in Vallaki,
Would be better to bring the RP away from vallaki and more towards Port or the Village of Barovia or anywhere on the other side of the mist wall.
Actually bring life to the rest of the server.

[MAB77]

There is this idea that quality RP can happen anywhere. It should never be dependant on reward. With this idea, you might perhaps achieve that some locations would see more RP, but that would systematically come at the detriment of other places that would see even less than they get now, and that I cannot agree to. The current system is better and fairer. Same RPXP for everyone, everywhere in a same domain. And given we did update the system to be more generous than it used to be, there is no reason to make any other.

Turning a given place into a RP hub requires only players dedicated in providing animations there and advertize it to the community. To quote Field of Dreams, if you build it, they will come.

[Talis]

I might be wrong, but I think you get more RP XP the more people are around you and the more messages you send. In that way, busy places do reward RP in a way I believe.

I could be way off, though.

[Limine]

I might be wrong, but I think you get more RP XP the more people are around you and the more messages you send. In that way, busy places do reward RP in a way I believe.

I could be way off, though.

It's a commonly held belief. I believe it too from anecdotal experience. But we're not going to get it confirmed - XP is obfuscated for a reason.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm pretty sure RP XP is a set amount for every tic, the frequency of the tic has to do with your activity. Post a lot, get rewarded a lot.

[OccamsClub]

I fear I might've soured the pot on this by framing it as an XP boosting mechanic - Really I'd just love to see some official spotlight signposting people to spark some spontaneous RP in underutilised areas. I've no issues with how much RP XP is generated - I do have some frustrations that if I want to meet anyone, there is only one logical course of action : head to a narratively insignificant spot between a pub and a temple that nonetheless houses 90% of the active socialisation that's available to me. The same location that has been the backdrop of most players first three months of the server - and in some cases, the majority of their experience of the server -  for nearly 20 years.

Turning a given place into a RP hub requires only players dedicated in providing animations there and advertize it to the community. To quote Field of Dreams, if you build it, they will come.

And to extend that quote - And Once They've Seen It, They Will Leave.

You -can- commit to building a thing worth attending to see, but you cannot create a backdrop for spontaneous RP unrelated to what you are doing. By player effort alone, you can't make the default hangout spot change. That needs some official nudging.

You can do things worth people coming to see, but they are not coming to have RP in a different setting - they're coming to see your effort. It is an effort centered on the player activities that demand dedicated and persistent effort from big groups of players to keep active. There's examples of this - like the Hospice. But I cannot just go to the hospice and hang out to maybe meet some new people there. I go to the hospice to engage with the RP the hospice players created. It's cool, it's great, but it's not an alternative to a hub.

And if they get bored of waiting for people to come to them, where does that lead them? Back to the 'skirts.

In my experience and from what I've been told, there's three places you can go to and expect RP/conversation - The Mist Camp, the Western Outskirts, and Port. Every other hub-worthy location sees activity only for the things that are there, or for brief one-off events.

There are at about a dozen pubs I've bumped into. There is only one that I've had any conversation in that I didn't explicitly bring with me into it. If you make Midway Haven a hotzone, you could genuinely just walk around the libraries or lakes there, and have a reasonable expectation that someone might walk in, and you could have a chat. That simply won't happen right now. I could go and sit in Midway's pub for three hours with LFRP on, and see no other players. At best, maybe someone doing a delivery or alchemy.

If there was an official hotzone push towards it, then that could happen.

The Outskirts is only what it is because it already has an official spotlight on it - It is the 'starter zone', the first area new players bump into, the crossroads for earlygame. It actually has remarkably little else of interest - a graveyard (that we've all seen before), a fairly generic pub, and a Radu.

It's more an "LFRP" for a location - or a "Play A Different Area" event. Once a month, for a week, maybe. Waddayasay?

There should be no RP Hot Zones in Vallaki

Maybe! I've not had much luck exploring - I tend to get ganked on the road and nearly killed if I try explore. If I knew locations outside of Vallaki, I'd be fine with this too. I think a few in different levelled areas would be good. Getting out of Barovia is one thing, but my goal is just getting some spontaneous crowds that can hang around somewhere other than specifically the Outskirts.

While I do think we should have RP in more places than just the outskirts and ports hidey holes, I think it should come about more organically.  Actually find cool places and bring people to them to RP.  I dont like the idea of putting RP hot zones in just another tavern.

The thing is, where do you meet those people to bring them to a new place to RP?

....Probably the Outskirts, right?

Just imagine if you could just go to a new location, and there already be people there! Not because they'd doing the nearby dungeon or because they're crafting, but because they're chilling in that location, because they have a reason to believe that their waiting won't result in four hours of total silence. Which, presently, it will.

I'd agree, 'just another tavern' probably isn't a good goal. I was more imagining regions - The Midway has a lot more than a tavern to it, for instance. Same with Degannwy.

[Darmaniac]

IVe past too many time away from others, maybe having a little *nods* at some point as an outlander. Etc. Getting RP XP can be suffering and i don't see why some "zone" should be better then others. The current system is fine to me.

[Flat Cap]

No thank you. I just see this as a way for people to hop around to different areas of the server to figure out wherever the Hot Zone is to maximize their XP gains. RP is RP. If you want to draw someone to a zone or area that is underutilized, all you need to do is give players a reason to go there.

[William Roberts]

Players who are primarily driven by XP are very likely going to be dungeoning.

In a way, DM XP implements this idea already.

And to extend that quote - And Once They've Seen It, They Will Leave.

You -can- commit to building a thing worth attending to see, but you cannot create a backdrop for spontaneous RP unrelated to what you are doing. By player effort alone, you can't make the default hangout spot change. That needs some official nudging.

You can do things worth people coming to see, but they are not coming to have RP in a different setting - they're coming to see your effort. It is an effort centered on the player activities that demand dedicated and persistent effort from big groups of players to keep active. There's examples of this - like the Hospice. But I cannot just go to the hospice and hang out to maybe meet some new people there. I go to the hospice to engage with the RP the hospice players created. It's cool, it's great, but it's not an alternative to a hub.

And if they get bored of waiting for people to come to them, where does that lead them? Back to the 'skirts.

The truth of the above is at least arguable. Players have succeeded in creating alternative hangout spots, but (naturally) the "default" doesn't change. The default spot/spots is/are by design, and if Devs want that to change, they'll change the design. This is a bit akin to saying players in Monopoly cannot change that everyone starts at Go without a nudge from Monopoly's designers.

In my opinion (given all the above), this suggestion is a solution in search of a problem--tweaking for tweaking's sake.

[myrddraal]

The thing is, where do you meet those people to bring them to a new place to RP?

....Probably the Outskirts, right?

Just imagine if you could just go to a new location, and there already be people there! Not because they'd doing the nearby dungeon or because they're crafting, but because they're chilling in that location, because they have a reason to believe that their waiting won't result in four hours of total silence. Which, presently, it will.

I'd agree, 'just another tavern' probably isn't a good goal. I was more imagining regions - The Midway has a lot more than a tavern to it, for instance. Same with Degannwy.

Theres a tool called LFRP which broadcasts your location.  You can go to a cool spot, turn it on, or go to people who are in cool spots.  Use LFRP mode more, people.

[OccamsClub]

No thank you. I just see this as a way for people to hop around to different areas of the server to figure out wherever the Hot Zone is to maximize their XP gains. RP is RP. If you want to draw someone to a zone or area that is underutilized, all you need to do is give players a reason to go there.

It is a shame that I lead this with a suggestion for it being motivated by XP. Really, I just want to encourage RP to naturally form that isn't the western outskirts.

Drumming up attention for an area is all well and good, but that's a lot of effort and has a certain shelf life. It also specifically means that people are coming to the new location, to see what you're doing. Not to have naturally-formed RP with strangers in an environment that isn't a well trodden, 20x20 patch of dirt betwixt temple and tavern.

I think the unexpectedly emphatic nays have it, though. It was just a thought.

In my opinion (given all the above), this suggestion is a solution in search of a problem--tweaking for tweaking's sake.

It was actually a perceived problem ( The outskirts as a location is a bit stale and it'd be nice to use some of the underutilised spaces ) with a proposed solution (some official push to highlight other areas of the server as locales for RP without specifically summoning people to it for an event).

XP was an obvious incentive to help attract people, but I suspect this has immediately raised hackles to people worried about it being disruptive to balancing. Honestly, just a login note that says "This month's hotspot is the Midway Haven, consider heading there if you're looking for RP!" would likely have more impact than any individual or small group of players could achieve - as lame as that sounds, that tiny official push could inspire some activity in an unused area.

[Maffa]

As trite as the sentence is, and since we're in the mood for quotes, Be the change you want to see.

True it takes experience. But with my last character I sort of made a point of taking and entertaining other characters to several spots that were less known or travelled, the Blue Water Inn to name the first (Hot water tub and toilets! In Vallaki!) or the small groove east of VOB, or any of the restaurants in Port, or the spa in Romulai... yeah they all were sort of dating spots *scratches head* BUT STILL! Instead of chatting and idling in the outskirts under the rain and mud to the shin, drag everybody to any of the taverns in the city, or organize a gambling night to the Prancing Nymph. Name any of these places as your usual haunt for you and your friends. Really be the change you want to see.

[OccamsClub]

As trite as the sentence is, and since we're in the mood for quotes, Be the change you want to see.

I'll run the experiment, I suppose. Lots of people are saying that it'll work. I'll sit in a rarely-used location for, say, three hours, with LFRP on, and see if anyone turns up.

[Flat Cap]

So, I definitely appreciate where you're coming from @OccamsClub. There are a lot of little unused gems, even within Vallaki. So when you consider the massive scope of the server as a whole, it's sad to think that there are really only a few places which are frequently used.

Some suggestions that I have seen that work are as follows:

Coordinate with a group of friends to find a place where you all like to hang out and meet up between adventures that's off the beaten path, then start leaving clues to the sort of activities they can expect to find there.

Host an event if some sort at a location off the beaten path. Advertise it in game and on the forums and make sure it's appropriate to the setting.

Make a regular standing date/time that you'll be in a place and advertise that both IC and OOC. Leave clues in that area to let passers by know you're actively waiting for RP.

Obviously, keep that LFRP active. It tells people you're looking, but also make sure you're willing to go and meet the others who might be tucked away somewhere as well. It's a give and take with LFRP. Also, don't be afraid to reach out to those players ooc and let them know where you are and what type of RP they can expect there.

Reach out to the DM team and see if you can entice any of them toward some interesting interactions in those locations. Even if it's just a small scene, maybe an arranged hunt starting from said location or anything like that.

** I can assure you, if my current active character was more available, I'd be looking for those LFRP folk to engage with more regularly. But guardsmen are pretty well restricted to areas local to Vallaki, unless they want to get fired.

[Maffa]

As trite as the sentence is, and since we're in the mood for quotes, Be the change you want to see.

I'll run the experiment, I suppose. Lots of people are saying that it'll work. I'll sit in a rarely-used location for, say, three hours, with LFRP on, and see if anyone turns up.

uhm... it's not sit. It's like drag.

People drift in the outskirts like flotsam, because they all collective hope that someone does something, which predictably produces nothing most of the time except variations of "uhhh... so.... tergs?".

If you have a character, you need to play a role. There are places where your character would rather be than knee deep in mud, between a half demolished temple and a overpriced inn, outside the city walls proper.  Where would they rather be? Who are they friend with? Do they all share the same values, as in one is posh another is salt-of-the_earth etc? Find your place in the module, show your place to the others, invite others to do the same. Don't wait for action to fall upon you, live the place, and lead the others so that they can do the same with you. And keep doing it. Always. Make it your haunt, or go to the other's. There is nothing in the outskirts. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE OUTSKIRTS. It's the strip of land between the sign with the name of the town and the town proper. Just go there for shopping and light gossiping, but the important stuff, do it in the place which is closer to your character's core.

[OccamsClub]

uhm... it's not sit. It's like drag.

I'm kind of struggling to follow you. I think there's an ideal in your mind that if I repeatedly drag people to some random location, then people will start awaiting at this location in the expectation that I will drag enough people there for their waiting in a ghost town to be justified?

I'd imagine that's fairly unlikely.

There are a lot of little unused gems, even within Vallaki. So when you consider the massive scope of the server as a whole, it's sad to think that there are really only a few places which are frequently used.

That is really the nub of my thoughts here. One thousand hours of player effort would have a fraction of the impact that a small official rotating spotlight would have. My hope here wasn't to create a small period where one unused area is active, but to cause areas that are normally ghost towns to potentially be the sparking points for strangers. To get out of the vicious cycle of hanging out in the Outskirts waiting for something to happen or someone to sneeze in a way that sounds like a type of monster.

[Merry Munchkin]

I can appreciate your thoughts.  It is easy for others to say "be the change" or "build it yourself" but there are network effects to consider that are difficult to build by yourself.  I happen to love VoB, and think it is grossly underutilized.  The Blood o' The Vine is an amazing inn.  There is crafting available.  There is a temple.  There is a merchant.  There is a lot of fun PvE nearby.  And NOBODY hangs out there.  I have often been in VoB for hours, and seen maybe one or two others show up, usually in the process of doing something else (hunting for worg pelts, or heading from Mist Camp to do a couple of PvE runs before they head back to Mist Camp). 

Part of what makes Vallaki a thriving RP hub is (1) everyone starts there and there is always a mass of players available, (2) many players stick around because it is pretty easy to access all the content in Western Barovia, (3) it has become the default commercial hub for crafted wares or looted items because that is where the majority of customers hang out, and (4) a main area faction (the Garda) is location locked to the area and is regularly interacting with players.  This starts the network effects ball rolling, and the players amplify this with their own RP.  People go there because people go there.  Most of the other locations are transitory at best, which is a shame really.

I am not opposed to artificial mechanics to make other areas more amenable to congregating and staying, and not merely passing through, but I am at a loss of how to do that effectively absent some radical redesign of the geography -- hanging out with LFRP or even advertising an "event" in VoB is not likely to generate any permanent hub of RP.  The one idea I thought of would be to connect the Tser Pool directly to VoB, rather than the crossroads, forcing you to go through VoB to get to Mist Camp, but that is not cannon geography for Ravenloft by my understanding.  However, that is how big box stores like Ikea force you to go through their buildings and get you to peruse their entire inventory.  Physical design can affect personal behavior.

[Maffa]

Mh. If the goal is weaken the outskirts as a hub, the effort will be wasted. Players cannot create a hub off any place, because hubs are designed and designated to become one. What I thought you were trying to do was to create temporary, interesting, Rp hotspots for a dozen or so characters over time.

In my experience, I have done so with the Blue Water Inn first, then Le Blue Croissant, and lastly la Dama di Porcellana later. The latter aside since it was my own rental, the other two were public spaces, in which I simply invited and literally dragged other players' characters in order to Rp. Romeo would arrive to the outskirts, he'd disparage the place where only hogs were fit to have a good time, do some light shopping, do a little gossiping, and then when curfew hit, he'd drag 3,4,5 characters back to the Bluewater where he'd treat everyone with wine, food, songs and random bullshitting, and those people brought more people, and for a small while the Blue Water had good business. The same with slightly less fortune I did for Le Blue Croissant. At the same time, other players started their rents, with their activities, and I went to their places and brought my rp there.

Now: these are feasible, reachable goals, to which I tried to point to with my previous post. If your goal is to recreate another outskirts/mist camp/terraces: you are wasting your time. VoB will never be a hub, simply because there is the intent for it not to become one. but the same goes for any other place out there: the outskirts are the place where characters that have nothing in common have the chance to meet and rub shoulders, this is the starting point to go... anywhere else. This is "the Hub". The next place can be your goal. But you cannot replace the outskirts as the "place zero", not matter how. That's not up to you, this is simply how the server is designed.

[Maiyannah]

I've been making a point to avoid the OOC forums of late.  I feel the arguments are not productive and do not bring change.  But this thread was linked to me and I have some rather direct experience in "being that change" - quite literally.  So I thought I'd share my thoughts on this, perhaps they will be valuable to someone.

I originally created Emmanuelle as a one-off for Stygian's Witch Hazlan Re-emergence event.  I just thought it would be funny if some baldies got to dab on an Ezran prisoner, but, that wasn't what happened: she won, and she escaped Hazlan to Vallaki.  The church she found there was a quiet faction, and the only regularly active people were Danika and Gregorie.  Sometime, Matthew was around, but rarely.

But that's not the state of the Ezran church now, is it?  When you have a character whom truly does drive roleplay, finds good people, and keeps them, and keeps that inertia, then you can build the world.  We regularly have 10 and sometimes even 20 person turn outs to events right now, and given server peak is 90ish maybe 100 these days, that's an appreciable amount of the online people.  I may not have gotten the faction promotion, but if I am allowed to toot my own horn a moment here, I feel Emma had a pretty central role in galvanizing that.  Others have felt as much as well.

I say this mostly for context: I've done this and you can make it work.

However, what I will also say is that there's a lot of work into making something like this work, and I had a lot of advantages.  Emmanuelle was essentially given an amazing backstory through the DM event that naturally drew people to want to know more about her.  She also had a few other people already there, just not many, not engaged, and not often around.

Starting from ground zero is, I think, very difficult, both for yourself and others.  My suggestion would be to find and inteersted player or two, to attach with the roleplay, and use that as your springboard.  Emmanuelle would have been a much more bleak roleplaying experience if not for the dynamism her future wife and conversion project Talis gave her, and it was a tremendous help in finding the motivation to keep going when times were slower.  I hope the same has been true for her as well.  I like to think it has, given she stuck around, and married that ginger goober

Having some friends to undertake that kind of revival is key, I think, to keep you through those periods.  If you have fun with it, and they have fun with it, and people see you having fun with it, you'll draw them out.  We saw this with Uta during the last NCE as well.  People went out of their way to go through that check point, just because it was some fun RP.  They were doing it well past when they really needed to, for funds.

Also, another thing to realize is this kind of change is rarely instant.  The Church was slowly revived over like, a year.  It is a commitment.  Choose something you know you'll have fun with, a story you know you will enjoy telling.  I would be lying to say I haven't gotten attached to Emma over the time, because hers is a story I enjoy more and more as it goes along, hurdles and downright thwartings aside.  If the journey is enjoyable, however, then it matters not how swiftly the destination comes.

Just my 2c anyways, having been there.

[Maffa]

[snip] It is a commitment. [/snip]

Absolutely. As I was saying before, it all starts within the character. The outskirts are almost flavorless. A "place zero" (I like this definition) where the Dm need to gather most of the flock and inflict them with something from time to time, but it's mainly the starting point to go somewhere else. Characters should grow somewhere else, to a place closer to what their core is growing into. As in the case of Emmanuelle, it was the Refuge. In the case of Romeo, it was the Bluewater Inn and the Silver Aster. To others, it could be the Drain, or Mariska's, the groove east of VoB, etc. it takes an uncommon amount of playtime and constancy. But it's true: if you build it, they will come: it being not only the place for RP of this topic, but mainly your character.


Truth be told, there could be a case to be made about the opportunity to limit access during the night to the Lady's rest and the ML temple without a faction player in charge. I know, it's madness, but I think RP wise, Ladys rest and the ML temple being non places where players mindlessly shuffle by default when nights come are somewhat destructive and hindering the character development and diversification since they are the simplest go-to solutions to the outskirts, the "zero point five" solution so to speak. More seriously, and without suggesting the DMs to bar the access to the two most popular locations on the whole server, if players make a point to search for another place to go than these two, I wage their understanding of their characters would deepen because they would have to search for a place closer to their core.

[Talis]

I've been making a point to avoid the OOC forums of late.  I feel the arguments are not productive and do not bring change.  But this thread was linked to me and I have some rather direct experience in "being that change" - quite literally.  So I thought I'd share my thoughts on this, perhaps they will be valuable to someone.

I originally created Emmanuelle as a one-off for Stygian's Witch Hazlan Re-emergence event.  I just thought it would be funny if some baldies got to dab on an Ezran prisoner, but, that wasn't what happened: she won, and she escaped Hazlan to Vallaki.  The church she found there was a quiet faction, and the only regularly active people were Danika and Gregorie.  Sometime, Matthew was around, but rarely.

But that's not the state of the Ezran church now, is it?  When you have a character whom truly does drive roleplay, finds good people, and keeps them, and keeps that inertia, then you can build the world.  We regularly have 10 and sometimes even 20 person turn outs to events right now, and given server peak is 90ish maybe 100 these days, that's an appreciable amount of the online people.  I may not have gotten the faction promotion, but if I am allowed to toot my own horn a moment here, I feel Emma had a pretty central role in galvanizing that.  Others have felt as much as well.

I say this mostly for context: I've done this and you can make it work.

However, what I will also say is that there's a lot of work into making something like this work, and I had a lot of advantages.  Emmanuelle was essentially given an amazing backstory through the DM event that naturally drew people to want to know more about her.  She also had a few other people already there, just not many, not engaged, and not often around.

Starting from ground zero is, I think, very difficult, both for yourself and others.  My suggestion would be to find and inteersted player or two, to attach with the roleplay, and use that as your springboard.  Emmanuelle would have been a much more bleak roleplaying experience if not for the dynamism her future wife and conversion project Talis gave her, and it was a tremendous help in finding the motivation to keep going when times were slower.  I hope the same has been true for her as well.  I like to think it has, given she stuck around, and married that ginger goober

Having some friends to undertake that kind of revival is key, I think, to keep you through those periods.  If you have fun with it, and they have fun with it, and people see you having fun with it, you'll draw them out.  We saw this with Uta during the last NCE as well.  People went out of their way to go through that check point, just because it was some fun RP.  They were doing it well past when they really needed to, for funds.

Also, another thing to realize is this kind of change is rarely instant.  The Church was slowly revived over like, a year.  It is a commitment.  Choose something you know you'll have fun with, a story you know you will enjoy telling.  I would be lying to say I haven't gotten attached to Emma over the time, because hers is a story I enjoy more and more as it goes along, hurdles and downright thwartings aside.  If the journey is enjoyable, however, then it matters not how swiftly the destination comes.

Just my 2c anyways, having been there.

This, genuinely. When I was an outsider to the Ezrite rp, it was really Emmanuelle, Danika and Gregorie who were basically around. If it hadn't been for one player really pushing it, I don't think much would have changed. Eventually momentum builds and drifts outwards too - older faces come back, new faces come and make their own stories/tangents, and it grows into a whole thing. I love that I've been able to join in and help continue to build up and participate in it. Bumping into Emmanuelle on my first night on the server has been a wild ride that has stretches much further than the Outskirts. I'd have gotten so bored just hanging out there or the Mist Camp, even if I'll still visit the former often enough.

Maybe official factions have a slight leg up but honestly, all that really meant was having a couple churches to hang out in. You could probably pick houlgraves, another pub, Dvergheim, Degannwy, Midway or wherever and get rp. One thing I'd suggest though is being visitor-friendly. One way to play Ezrites f.ex. is to tell outsiders to beat it. If Em/Danika/Gregorie had done that, Talis wouldn't have hung out with them and eventually joined. I'd suggest an idea that isn't so secretive that visitors aren't just stared at awkwardly.

ALSO, when you do this sort of thing, it can attract AMPCs and DMs, which is lovely.