Upcoming Prestige Class - Tattooed Monk

[EO]

We plan on making the following changes to Tattooed Monk:

-Pine Tattoo: Replace Endurance with Back to the Wall.
-White Mask Tattoo: Add immunity to Detect Alignment abilities as per the PnP writeup.
-Ability buff tattoos duration from 1 Turn + 1 Round/Level to 1 Hour + 1 Turn/Level, to be consistent with other ability buff spells.
-Dragonfly Tattoo: Adjust the duration from 1 Turn + 1 Round/Level to 1 Hour + 1 Turn/Level.
-Crab Tattoo: Add a 12 Constitution prerequisite to that feat.
-Crescent Moon Tattoo: Change from "Once per day" to "Once per day per tattoo", which is the Oriental Adventures version.
-Full Moon Tattoo and Sun Tattoo: Adjust duration from 1 Turn to 1 Turn + 1 Round / Level, to be on par with the Tiger Tattoo.

[softdrink]

We plan on making the following changes to Tattooed Monk:

-Pine Tattoo: Replace Endurance with Back to the Wall.
-White Mask Tattoo: Add immunity to Detect Alignment abilities as per the PnP writeup.
-Ability buff tattoos duration from 1 Turn + 1 Round/Level to 1 Hour + 1 Turn/Level, to be consistent with other ability buff spells.
-Dragonfly Tattoo: Adjust the duration from 1 Turn + 1 Round/Level to 1 Hour + 1 Turn/Level.
-Crab Tattoo: Add a 12 Constitution prerequisite to that feat.
-Crescent Moon Tattoo: Change from "Once per day" to "Once per day per tattoo", which is the Oriental Adventures version.
-Full Moon Tattoo and Sun Tattoo: Adjust duration from 1 Turn to 1 Turn + 1 Round / Level, to be on par with the Tiger Tattoo.

While I agree it was somewhat lacking before, these are pretty massive buffs. I'd really hope there's plans to buff some base monk features as well.
The class now has more than double the base classes amount of ethereal jaunts, on tap expertise for an hour with no downsides, built in DR, stacking buffs and potentially no casting animations meaning you can just rip all of these in a fight immediately.

Adding flat damage in addition to ki strike, ki strike +4, boosting perfect self DR or something would help alleviate it, but the base monk will absolutely need some sort of buff to not fall behind if this is how the PRC is going to be taken; Especially considering tattoo monk levels count for the base classes bonuses like speed and damage, it's no longer much of a trade off.

[Cyber Viking]

I agree,
Similarly to how the fighter class got a buff to make it more appealing to go pure fighter.
With the versatile nature of making a "custom monk" with the tattoos there should be significant advantages to base monks that are at that higher level.

16+ to prevent that multiclass power build.

Significant boost to DR when achieving perfect self 20/+5 would be appropriate.
Ki Strike gets a boost to +5 to make this on par with GMW also allowing it to count towards AB would suit since a GMW spell does the same. Having the benefits of endurance, die hard and Ocean Tattoo seem also fitting for a monk and they aren't over powered in their nature. Similarly to how a ranger gets endurance for free at level 3. As they adapt to the elements a monks body has adapted to its surroundings.

The tweets aren't realisticly game breaking considering they equate to a stoneskin potion and a GMW spell also the change to outsider OCR makes this a hindering prospect.

[MAB77]

It is premature to claim that the standard monk will need any buff. For one, it is already excellent in all the areas it needs to excel in, and two, we need time to see how the tattooed monks really perform on the server.

Buffing another class is never a good reaction to a perception that something else is too strong. If something is too strong, proposing adjustments to said feature is always the way to go.

[Cyber Viking]

It is premature to claim that the standard monk will need any buff. For one, it is already excellent in all the areas it needs to excel in, and two, we need time to see how the tattooed monks really perform on the server.

Buffing another class is never a good reaction to a perception that something else is too strong. If something is too strong, proposing adjustments to said feature is always the way to go.

I agree that this is premature and that you make is a fair point on not buffing for strength over another. However standard monk has never been strong on the sever in the first place and history show multiple threads and discussions around this. It has been considered the least playable class in this servers history.

With the addition of the tattoos we are simply asking that the playing field for standard monk be leveled with every other class. The aim is not to buff based on others that are too strong it is to not let the base class fall lower than it already is and has been since day one.

[softdrink]

It is premature to claim that the standard monk will need any buff. For one, it is already excellent in all the areas it needs to excel in, and two, we need time to see how the tattooed monks really perform on the server.

Buffing another class is never a good reaction to a perception that something else is too strong. If something is too strong, proposing adjustments to said feature is always the way to go.

Sure, I agree it is a bit premature, and monk is an excellent class and fairly strong whether people realize it or not.

My main point with my post was to highlight that the adjustments made to tattooed monk are just too far into one direction.
Monks are already difficult to play and get into, and while this PRC does open roads to it more I don't think it'll help with the numbers too much.
It could be a very long while before we see what tattooed monks are properly capable of, though that doesn't exactly excuse the potential of the class in direct comparison to the base class.

I believe Cyber Viking's proposal for buffs are far too much as well; In fact, I don't think monk needs a large buff at all to keep it in step with the PRC with these changes, but it needs -something- that's a bit difficult to pin down. Again, and I probably sound like a broken record, Ki Strike +4 at 20 or an adjustment to the DR given would be perfect I feel at least.
I'll propose some adjustments to the PRC that I think would help keep it from being overly strong.

My main thought being keeping the casting time on the tattoos, especially since a majority of them now last an hour. It'll help from everything stacking all at once into some fighter shout-esque buff cannon since it stacks with standard buffs, making more of a emphasis on using what you need first in the situation you find yourself in rather than just smacking the entire row of tattoo charges.

I also think the dragonfly tattoo is a bit much as well, an hour and ten rounds of 5 dodge AC is pretty crazy and should probably be reverted back down to turn + turn per level.

The ability buffs I think are fine, and in line with how they probably should have been from the start.

Crescent Moon is a big egregious though, I would propose three charges rather than the full five.
Pine Tattoo is good, White Mask is good and the Crab Tattoo prereq is a good change as well.

[MAB77]

CyberViking, I have to disagree with your assessment. The fact that none of the previous analysis convinced the team that any change was warranted to the standard monk speaks for itself. The monk class is one of the better balanced class out there. It has proven time and time again to be quite adept at surviving and resisting nigh everything at higher levels. With varnishes and potions they can provide themselves all the buffs they need with a bit of effort. And when they team up with a buffer, as we encourage all players to do, it really shines and can accomplish much.

What matters ultimately is that each get perks the other will not.

Tattooed monk gets great versatility in the features they pick, but when they take a tattoo similar to a feature of the standard monk, it is usually weaker, or does not provide as many uses a day.

The full level 20 monk will still always have a higher spell resistance than any tattooed monk, get Ki Strike +3 which decreases the need to have a buffer or carry magic varnish, 2 uses of Ethereal Jaunt a day, and mind spell immunities. Quivering Palm too though we know that one is lackluster.

That said, I would agree that level 20 monks not be given glowing eyes as to not raise their OCR.

[softdrink]

CyberViking, I have to disagree with your assessment. The fact that none of the previous analysis convinced the team that any change was warranted to the standard monk speaks for itself. The monk class is one of the better balanced class out there. It has proven time and time again to be quite adept at surviving and resisting nigh everything at higher levels. With varnishes and potions they can provide themselves all the buffs they need with a bit of effort. And when they team up with a buffer, as we encourage all players to do, it really shines and can accomplish much.

What matters ultimately is that each get perks the other will not.

Tattooed monk gets great versatility in the features they pick, but when they take a tattoo similar to a feature of the standard monk, it is usually weaker, or does not provide as many uses a day.

The full level 20 monk will still always have a higher spell resistance than any tattooed monk, get Ki Strike +3 which decreases the need to have a buffer or carry magic varnish, 2 uses of Ethereal Jaunt a day, and mind spell immunities. Quivering Palm too though we know that one is lackluster.

That said, I would agree that level 20 monks not be given glowing eyes as to not raise their OCR.

Removal of the glowing eyes at 20 would definitely help alleviate years of issues, and would be fantastic if it were to be discussed.

As for Ki Strike +3, it's a little superfluous since most people high enough to reach Ki Strike +3 will have enchanted gauntlets and benefit from the enhancement on that as well. A Tattooed Monk can reach that same +3 easily by going through the enchanting process they were likely to go through prior anyways.

Ki Strike +4 puts full monk over the threshold of many sources of DR with no further increase to damage or enhancement, but not premonition, which I think is a valid break point for the abilities considering the level, and does put a greater difference in the abilities of itself and the PRC.

[Cyber Viking]

CyberViking, I have to disagree with your assessment. The fact that none of the previous analysis convinced the team that any change was warranted to the standard monk speaks for itself. The monk class is one of the better balanced class out there. It has proven time and time again to be quite adept at surviving and resisting nigh everything at higher levels. With varnishes and potions they can provide themselves all the buffs they need with a bit of effort. And when they team up with a buffer, as we encourage all players to do, it really shines and can accomplish much.

What matters ultimately is that each get perks the other will not.

Tattooed monk gets great versatility in the features they pick, but when they take a tattoo similar to a feature of the standard monk, it is usually weaker, or does not provide as many uses a day.

The full level 20 monk will still always have a higher spell resistance than any tattooed monk, get Ki Strike +3 which decreases the need to have a buffer or carry magic varnish, 2 uses of Ethereal Jaunt a day, and mind spell immunities. Quivering Palm too though we know that one is lackluster.

That said, I would agree that level 20 monks not be given glowing eyes as to not raise their OCR.

I like the glowing eyes and OCR that's sort of a cool part about being that lvl 20 monk. Which also seems fair given their body's at that stage.

Ki strike is useless.
We can make that clear that not only does a magic varnish give AB as well as DR penetration. But Enchanted gloves which can be attained at level 14 also do this.

Where as ki strike as written does not give AB.

It is the most useless feat monks have.

Also their perfect self /+1 is also useless as nothing you are attacking or being attacked by has less than a +1 magic enhancement when you are 14+.

Monks offer nothing to a party that another class can accomplish better. To which I put it to the community has anyone ever heard some one asking around for a monk to join their party?

I'll give you the call for front liners however with fighter & barb whom have more BAB and hit die monk falls short then.

You said that monks shine with warders and equipment. As does every other class.

I do not think that what I am asking is beyond the realms of ridiculous considering at that high level you will find the varnish, potion, enchanted gear or party member to get you there anyway. It is simply saving on one aspect of theses to make the class more like the lore. A perfect self.

[MAB77]

[...]
Monks offer nothing to a party that another class can accomplish better. To which I put it to the community has anyone ever heard some one asking around for a monk to join their party?
[...]

Monks are the server's best scouts. They excel at gathering components for others, as well as gathering groups of foes together for increased XP payout. That's 3 things already they do better than anyone else. At higher level they hold the line quite well in battle to keep foe busies for others.

[...]
I do not think that what I am asking is beyond the realms of ridiculous considering at that high level you will find the varnish, potion, enchanted gear or party member to get you there anyway. It is simply saving on one aspect of theses to make the class more like the lore. A perfect self.

And what does perfect means anyway? It's not like any definition of monk perfection is given and it will not be the same for everyone. What if its perfection of the mind, attunement with the planes more than any tangible power? Your demands are not unreasonable, but they are diverging from our goals: staying as close to the source material as the engine allows. Though we do care about the general balance on the server, balancing classes vs each others is not a concern until something is proven to be broken and we're certainly not there yet.

Right now the only thing that matters is tweaking the Tatooed Monk and Avenger Knights.

[Maffa]

[...]
Monks offer nothing to a party that another class can accomplish better. To which I put it to the community has anyone ever heard some one asking around for a monk to join their party?
[...]

Monks are the server's best scouts. They excel at gathering components for others, as well as gathering groups of foes together for increased XP payout. That's 3 things already they do better than anyone else. At higher level they hold the line quite well in battle to keep foe busies for others.

This is the most unappealing description of a class if I have ever read one. It pairs right up with "beguiler is a great RP class", and plays in the same league along with "she has great personality", and "he's a good listener".

[...]
I do not think that what I am asking is beyond the realms of ridiculous considering at that high level you will find the varnish, potion, enchanted gear or party member to get you there anyway. It is simply saving on one aspect of theses to make the class more like the lore. A perfect self.

And what does perfect means anyway? It's not like any definition of monk perfection is given and it will not be the same for everyone. What if its perfection of the mind, attunement with the planes more than any tangible power? Your demands are not unreasonable, but they are diverging from our goals: staying as close to the source material as the engine allows. Though we do care about the general balance on the server, balancing classes vs each others is not a concern until something is proven to be broken and we're certainly not there yet.

Right now the only thing that matters is tweaking the Tatooed Monk and Avenger Knights.

I hope Im not mistranslating what you are saying, but I read "cant be bothered about the borked old stuff because we have the shiny new thing"!

Can't help but wonder why keep adding complexity in a system that is already rickety as it is. Every class that gets throw in create a mess that only gets worse when including multiclassing in the mix, while the inherent powercreep pushes existing characters and classes out. It's like starting excavating a pool when you still have to finish the wiring in the bedrooms.

[Cyber Viking]

[...]
Monks offer nothing to a party that another class can accomplish better. To which I put it to the community has anyone ever heard some one asking around for a monk to join their party?
[...]

Monks are the server's best scouts. They excel at gathering components for others, as well as gathering groups of foes together for increased XP payout. That's 3 things already they do better than anyone else. At higher level they hold the line quite well in battle to keep foe busies for others.

Scouts:
Beguiler - Disable Trap,Search,Open Lock - all Class skills not available to monk + spells
Ranger - Search -class skill not available to monk + spells + Trackless Step, Endurance & Keen Sense.
Wizard, Cleric, Favored Soul, Voodan, Sorcerer - Multiple casts of Ethereal Jaunt + Skills not available to monk + spells.

Gathering Components:
Bards - Multiple Casts of Haste and have Epic of the lost king - Never gets tired.

Gathering Groups of Foes:
Any Fighter, Barberian or Paladin with haste. - More Hit die and High AC, all of which provide more hitting power once mobs are gathered with higher BAB.

Monks do not excel.

[...]
I do not think that what I am asking is beyond the realms of ridiculous considering at that high level you will find the varnish, potion, enchanted gear or party member to get you there anyway. It is simply saving on one aspect of theses to make the class more like the lore. A perfect self.

And what does perfect means anyway? It's not like any definition of monk perfection is given and it will not be the same for everyone. What if its perfection of the mind, attunement with the planes more than any tangible power? Your demands are not unreasonable, but they are diverging from our goals: staying as close to the source material as the engine allows. Though we do care about the general balance on the server, balancing classes vs each others is not a concern until something is proven to be broken and we're certainly not there yet.

Right now the only thing that matters is tweaking the Tatooed Monk and Avenger Knights.

A perfect self would be All of the above Mind, body and soul, Monks have fairly decent aspects to their mind and soul perfect selves with natural Spell resistance, Immunities to mind spells and other things that they get and can do.
However it is a bit rediculous that things like endurance and Die hard arent inherant. these arent particularly over powered feats and would add much to the lore of a monk.
It is also safe to say that if a monks fist can punch through +3 Enchantments then thier body should also be able to with stand hits from those.

But im going to leave it at that as im getting off topic and you are correct that this is more about tweaking Tattooed monk.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

[...]
Monks offer nothing to a party that another class can accomplish better. To which I put it to the community has anyone ever heard some one asking around for a monk to join their party?
[...]

Monks are the server's best scouts. They excel at gathering components for others, as well as gathering groups of foes together for increased XP payout. That's 3 things already they do better than anyone else. At higher level they hold the line quite well in battle to keep foe busies for others.

Scouts:
Beguiler - Disable Trap,Search,Open Lock - all Class skills not available to monk + spells
Ranger - Search -class skill not available to monk + spells + Trackless Step, Endurance & Keen Sense.
Wizard, Cleric, Favored Soul, Voodan, Sorcerer - Multiple casts of Ethereal Jaunt + Skills not available to monk + spells.

Gathering Components:
Bards - Multiple Casts of Haste and have Epic of the lost king - Never gets tired.

Gathering Groups of Foes:
Any Fighter, Barberian or Paladin with haste. - More Hit die and High AC, all of which provide more hitting power once mobs are gathered with higher BAB.

Monks do not excel.

I'm going to have to politley disagree. Monks can be scary powerful in the right circumstances - like when they are being buffed by a Voodan... I've also known many high level players/characters who felt both IC/OOC that they could take anyone in PvP except for a fully buffed Monk. SR, Movement Speed, base dmg, etc. Monks also have many built in convenience factors as far as QoL that other classes don't have. I think Monks are in a good/balanced spot personally.

[myrddraal]

I agree,
Similarly to how the fighter class got a buff to make it more appealing to go pure fighter.
With the versatile nature of making a "custom monk" with the tattoos there should be significant advantages to base monks that are at that higher level.

16+ to prevent that multiclass power build.

Significant boost to DR when achieving perfect self 20/+5 would be appropriate.
Ki Strike gets a boost to +5 to make this on par with GMW also allowing it to count towards AB would suit since a GMW spell does the same. Having the benefits of endurance, die hard and Ocean Tattoo seem also fitting for a monk and they aren't over powered in their nature. Similarly to how a ranger gets endurance for free at level 3. As they adapt to the elements a monks body has adapted to its surroundings.

The tweets aren't realisticly game breaking considering they equate to a stoneskin potion and a GMW spell also the change to outsider OCR makes this a hindering prospect.

One thing I want to pick out…20/+5 is insane.  It also stacks with other forms of damage reduction.  That is just too much even as a level 20 capstone ability.  I could see maybe 10 /+4 to be more in line with the fighter combat form but that also isn’t online all the time and has limited use / day so maybe even something like 7/+4.

[Zyemeth]

I agree,
Similarly to how the fighter class got a buff to make it more appealing to go pure fighter.
With the versatile nature of making a "custom monk" with the tattoos there should be significant advantages to base monks that are at that higher level.

16+ to prevent that multiclass power build.

Significant boost to DR when achieving perfect self 20/+5 would be appropriate.
Ki Strike gets a boost to +5 to make this on par with GMW also allowing it to count towards AB would suit since a GMW spell does the same. Having the benefits of endurance, die hard and Ocean Tattoo seem also fitting for a monk and they aren't over powered in their nature. Similarly to how a ranger gets endurance for free at level 3. As they adapt to the elements a monks body has adapted to its surroundings.

The tweets aren't realisticly game breaking considering they equate to a stoneskin potion and a GMW spell also the change to outsider OCR makes this a hindering prospect.

One thing I want to pick out…20/+5 is insane.  It also stacks with other forms of damage reduction.  That is just too much even as a level 20 capstone ability.  I could see maybe 10 /+4 to be more in line with the fighter combat form but that also isn’t online all the time and has limited use / day so maybe even something like 7/+4.

GMW also stops at +4. Making ki strike+5 is also insane.

[Cyber Viking]

Again the comments are:
Buffed by another class - every other class is good when buffed by another 🙄

At least if monks had +5 ki strike and +5 DR they would excel at being the class that is the striker and most resistant.

........ that sounds like a monk to me. Inherent Ki Stike is it's whole deal and resistant monks are inherently resistant to poison and disease not to mention the class already gives DR as part of the lore.

I just think that these need a bit more of a buff to be more in line with the server and balance them out to be good at the thing the class is made for. Fighting.

[MAB77]

Again the comments are:
Buffed by another class - every other class is good when buffed by another 🙄

At least if monks had +5 ki strike and +5 DR they would excel at being the class that is the striker and most resistant.

........ that sounds like a monk to me. Inherent Ki Stike is it's whole deal and resistant monks are inherently resistant to poison and disease not to mention the class already gives DR as part of the lore.

I just think that these need a bit more of a buff to be more in line with the server and balance them out to be good at the thing the class is made for. Fighting.

We are diverging from the purpose of this thread now. Your suggestions about monks are noted. Please return this thread to the evaluation of the tattooed monk only.

It remains valid to point out that a given tattooed monk feature is unbalanced vs that of a standard monk, but again the solution lies in proposing ways to adjust the Tattooed Monk feature.

[bloodandsoil]

It is premature to claim that the standard monk will need any buff. For one, it is already excellent in all the areas it needs to excel in, and two, we need time to see how the tattooed monks really perform on the server.

Buffing another class is never a good reaction to a perception that something else is too strong. If something is too strong, proposing adjustments to said feature is always the way to go.

There's a lot of information to analyze here!

Could anyone competently reveal how the base monk will still be superior, showing the major highlights of distinction from the tattooed monk?

[zDark Shadowz]

6 monk 9 tattooed monk to be able to do ethereal jaunt seems fun, allowing for 5 PrC levels on another class adds some fun flexibility, like 5 assassin or 5 weapon master. Previously 15/5 monks would give that up.

[remnar]

Monk is already an excellent class, so some variation isn't bad.
Tattoo monk loses some stuff from not being a monk, which we should look at.
Assuming a 10/10 M/TM, the TM loses:
all ki-strike
poison immunity
full 32 spell resistance
quivering palm
ethereal jaunt
mind-affecting immunity
20/+1 DR

Spoiler: show

Most of these can either be replaced by a tattoo feat (a better DR with crab, poison immunity with Crane, ethereal jaunt with crescent moon, partial SR with Phoenix) or the ability wasn't really that relevant in the first place.  Ki-strike would be good, but most people probably have some sort of +1 by 10 so unless a DM literally unequips your hand item I don't really see it being as major.  But I don't play monk, so I could be wrong.  I think the only thing the Monk really has over a TM is the mind-affecting immunity...however TM has a tattoo for magical fear immunity which is at least 75% of why people take mindblank.  And no one (COWARDS!!) seems to want to hit 20 monk for some reason...

an 11/9 regains poison immunity and ki-strike +1
While a 6/9/5 (monk, TM, 3rd PRC) loses out on a further:
Wholeness of Body (self healing ability)
Fiery ki-defense
ki-blast

Looking at it, I think a problem with Monk is how front loaded many of it's features are so many of the things you lose by not taking full monk levels.  I also think that a lot of the capabilities of Monk are replicated through TM tattoos (sometimes better!) while other less useful aspects are just thrown out.

It kinda seems like monk but better in some ways, except you never reach enlightenment so eh, whatever.  Monk is good, tattoo monks aren't going to be clowning on pure monks all the time.

[RedMoney]

I'd say, maybe make level 10 in the class increase the duration/uses of tattoos or some other relevant capstone, or there's no real point in ever taking 10 in it. Maybe a bonus feat?

[MAB77]

I'd say, maybe make level 10 in the class increase the duration/uses of tattoos or some other relevant capstone, or there's no real point in ever taking 10 in it. Maybe a bonus feat?

The extra level already increases the duration of your tattoo effects by virtue of being an extra class level. But I understand that people may prefer to go 11/9, that's perfectly fine too.

[Barley]

Does the Tattooed Monk receive bonus feats at levels 2, 5, and 8?
There's no mention of that, but I believe all other classes receive that, if not more.

[EO]

Does the Tattooed Monk receive bonus feats at levels 2, 5, and 8?
There's no mention of that, but I believe all other classes receive that, if not more.

All classes and prestige classes do, so we don't explicitly state it.

Also, after more thought, we'll bring back the Crescent Moon Tattoo to once per day. At this point no further balance changes will be made to the class prior to the hak update.