You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Rethinking XP Caps  (Read 1801 times)

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2024, 05:49:49 PM »
What if we just remove the XP system and make progression based on character age and activity? It seems like the goal is to make it so that everyone progresses equally, achieving max level by no earlier than an estimated amount of time - In my experience, about a year.

Giving people XP just for time spent on the server isn't a very precise metric; and once you refine it, I think you'd find you're essentially arguing for all XP to be RP XP.

At least I can't see a way of turning the quantity of time spent on the server to a metric worth rewarding other than RP XP.


Ah, I'm more arguing that there is a set amount of progression per day - Say that it requires you to be active for 60 minutes per day, or perhaps maybe just so many hours per week to be distributed so that people aren't required to worry about logging on every day, but instead can enjoy the game on a day off for several hours and still get the same progression as the guy who plays for an hour a day.

In this way, there's no XP for RP, or Dungeoning. Just for logging on for X hours during the week in Y character. Then we have truly leveled the playing field between the hyperactive and the semi-active, and removed the ability to sweatily grind XP in any shape or form.

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2024, 06:07:09 PM »
So how do you define "being active"?

Is logging on enough? Can people become level 20 just by logging on every day? Is logging on and hitting a rock enough? Is hitting a mink and then running away enough? Is logging on and typing "Hmm" enough?

My point here is that having a worthwhile definiton of "being active" here will probably tend to converge a lot of with "roleplay" when you're on a server that aims to promote roleplay.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 06:09:02 PM by Madame Trousers Son »
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

RedMoney

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1069
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2024, 06:19:26 PM »
I use milestone leveling in all PnP games I run, exp systems are silly to me. I'd say use the AMPC exp system on all PCs with some slight adjustments, get rid of the enchanting XP cost and cap the number of enchanted items a PC can make, or make it so the number of essences a PC needs to enchant something increases exponentially the more they enchant.
Currently playing: Si Feisong (ShamanVsAllClasses)

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2024, 06:25:28 PM »
Sure, I use milestone levelling in all my tabletop games too, but then I can judge whether a player at my table is actually playing and active.

Having some channel whereby people on a server can basically farm their way to level 20 just by logging on is probably not going to do anything positive for the server, and once you set up all the terms and conditions to check on behaviour, you'd be better off arguing for just RP XP, which is my point.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 06:29:04 PM by Madame Trousers Son »
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2024, 08:09:12 PM »
So how do you define "being active"?

Is logging on enough? Can people become level 20 just by logging on every day? Is logging on and hitting a rock enough? Is hitting a mink and then running away enough? Is logging on and typing "Hmm" enough?

My point here is that having a worthwhile definiton of "being active" here will probably tend to converge a lot of with "roleplay" when you're on a server that aims to promote roleplay.

I think just logging on would be fine, but really, that's the part that's down for discussion and can easily be decided; I don't think lacking a concrete definition for activity undermines the essence of the suggestion, which is a fixed progression rate. I'd probably, personally say being logged on for X hours is fine, weekly. If the goal is really, about roleplay rather than a mechanical grind, then removing the mechanical grind entirely and allowing roleplay to occur naturally seems like the most pure implementation of the intentions.


Sure, I use milestone levelling in all my tabletop games too, but then I can judge whether a player at my table is actually playing and active.

Having some channel whereby people on a server can basically farm their way to level 20 just by logging on is probably not going to do anything positive for the server, and once you set up all the terms and conditions to check on behaviour, you'd be better off arguing for just RP XP, which is my point.

Well, how would it be problematic?

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2024, 09:09:53 PM »
Why would having level 20 characters with zero effort or risk be problematic? (Because the internet doesn't convey tone, yes that's rhetorical.)
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2024, 09:20:59 PM »
Why would having level 20 characters with zero effort or risk be problematic?

So, you can like, actually answer the question, rather than being sarcastic, but I'll try to interpret your sarcasm as constructive criticism.

Levels on PoTM don't mean anything -- The setting doesn't necessarily respect or care about character level, comparatively; You were front and center in the Civil War plotline with the rest of us, and you probably remember that the Covenant's basic soldiers were all extremely powerful well-equipped Fighters with coteries of 7th-9th Circle-casting Wizards on speed-dial. You might think that a party of level 20, max-level adventurers would be considered something significant; But at the end of the day, the setting scales with us on PoTM, as do the enemies in any DM Event without any recognition of the efforts the players put into leveling to Level 20. In-fact, there's basically no roleplay value to being level 20 on PoTM in regards to how Ravenloft itself reacts.

In-fact, being level 20 is often worse for the wear for your opportunities. If you swing your big level 20 wanger around people lower level than you, you're ostracized. You're mistreated as being abusive, you're harassed OOC for being a bad sport. If you use your level 20 powers to help someone else level, you are also debatably told you're breaking the system. Being level 20 isn't all-that, and frankly, I think the more people who fall behind the leveling curve, it instrinsically worsens the experience of being, level 20 on the server because so few other people are.

Which begs the question, why aren't these other people level 20 after a year? and it's basically just because they aren't able to keep motivated. It's not a particularly fun system, and it's not rewarding effort, but essentially trying to keep people logging on their characters in intervals. There's really no 'risk' to leveling up, especially in this modern era where there are guaranteed grinding methods and a number of classes can solo the content, let alone what they can do with a party. Dungeoning is not difficult, it's just tedious and time-consuming, and most people don't care for it, except for the ones that do for the sake of it and they're constantly rebuked for parties because the XP system makes people stop dungeoning, thus, naturally pairing up can be difficult when wizards or whatever don't want to party because they're red-capped.

It isn't hard. It's rewarding people for doing things that aren't fun, on a roleplay server, and the reward is mediocrity. I've had numerous level 20 PCs, and I can safely say that at this point, I've never had a level 20 PC treated like being a level 20 PC unless I became a PvP menace and spooked people into not wanting to PvP me, which was also followed with some pretty fantastically awful OOC episodes of players losing their collective minds towards me because they got PvP'd. (Yes, they were reported, and the things were dealt with, it still happened.)

So what problems can arise from everyone being on the same playing field? What net benefit actually arises from making something so long, and drawn out, that the majority of players never see it to the end? I'd wager that the number of players who have achieved a level 20 PC on this server is below five percent of the total playerbase since inception. It's that boring. If the goal is gatekeeping end-game content and abilities, and experiences, from players on an RP server because they burn out as a control method, congratulations. System's working fine, but it's also an inherently anti-player-friendly system that isn't fun.

I just want things to be fun and engaging.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 09:24:05 PM by BraveSirRobin »

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2024, 09:30:35 PM »
I don't think levels are meaningless. Yes, it's not that hard to get to level 20, but it's still a journey. I think that rather than create meaning over being level 20, you want to destroy what meaning already exists in being level 20, and that's wrong-headed.

I also think that the answer to the question, "How do I face the horror of the setting?" should be, "Go out and be heroic/villanous!" or "Make connections and talk to people!". Not "Wait".

You want things to be fun and engaging, and you want to remove mechanical grind? Laudable goals. Why then throw out the baby of roleplay XP with the bathwater? Why reward doing nothing but existing? How is that fun and engaging?
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2024, 09:38:45 PM »
I don't think levels are meaningless. Yes, it's not that hard to get to level 20, but it's still a journey. I think that rather than create meaning over being level 20, you want to destroy what meaning already exists in being level 20, and that's wrong-headed.

I also think that the answer to the question, "How do I face the horror of the setting?" should be, "Go out and be heroic/villanous!" or "Make connections and talk to people!". Not "Wait".

You want things to be fun and engaging, and you want to remove mechanical grind? Laudable goals. Why then throw out the baby of roleplay XP with the bathwater? Why reward doing nothing but existing? How is that fun and engaging?

If it takes like, just short of, or around a year to hit level 20 for someone who has the real-life lifestyle accommodations to reliably play NWN enough to find enough parties, or has a enough friends to log on together and grind with, then it's not any different. It's a very gamey aspect of the server that's supposed to be roleplay-oriented. I'd realistically ask what that journey is supposed to be, however.

If killing Werewolves, fighting Demons, and slaying eldritch terrors, putting ancient, corrupted Baelnorns to rest was taken as actual experiences of value and merit, I'd agree that we're losing something significant. However, those are treated as fairly normal pursuits. No supported setting will care if you have done these things, and in-fact, they do the opposite -- Bringing them up at all will see you ostracized, in Dementlieu, you're crazy, in Barovia, you're just ultra-outlander and OOCly you'll be harried for even being in the region past the acceptable level range.

I had several Gendarmes that achieved level 20 through sweaty, excessive RP XP past like level 14 -- My grinding loop used to be speeding to 14 and then engaging in idle RP in Dementlieu with an occasional delve into the under-city while playing like, 10,000 hours of the game. I put 10,000 hours into PoTM while I was unemployed/partially employed with nothing to do, and I leveled several characters to 20 through dropping paragraphs like it's going out of style and some DM Events/XP. Yet, now my character, level 20, has the same power as someone who has relentlessly hunted hordes of Demons.

I guess at the end of the day, I just empathize more these days with the fact people have lives, and PoTM often asks too much from people with a great deal of life responsibilities to enjoy its' end-game content anymore. I know I basically plan to never manage a level 20 here again, because it's asking too much from me, and I just don't think it's that rewarding to begin with.

So now the question I ask you is:

How is the journey objectively altered, if the time to level 20 is the same, but the means are changed? When examining the paths to 20, through grinding, through RP XP, DM Events, etc; The goal is that a PC can achieve 20 no sooner than one year, thereabouts, it seems. The limitation from there, is how much can the player keep their attention span on the mark. If that journey was spent engaging in roleplay goals, rather than basing your life around yellow text and xp ticks, would there not still be, a journey?

EDIT: I forgot to reply to the engaging and fun part; Imagine playing Barovians that didn't have to break character to dungeon, or Dementlieuse that didn't have to wander beyond Dementlieu to be strong, that could naturally level up in their domains and engage with the content and roleplay there first and foremost, without having to break their worldviews or cultural taboos? The NPCs certainly get to, so why not you?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 09:41:57 PM by BraveSirRobin »

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2024, 09:51:47 PM »
The journey is objectively altered because you're treating level 20 as an entitlement rather than a goal or a reward. Lampshading how relatively riskless it is, you therefore argue it should be effortless; or at the very least, completely uncoupled from effort beyond logging on a bit.

It's a bit like the high levels who hang around the Vallaki Outskirts, fearless of the night, because they know OOC no spawns could hurt them. You've come to terms with the server's flaws, and since you can't suspend disbelief to overlook them, why shouldn't we just change the server's mission so that they're no longer flaws?

It's the wrong direction.
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2024, 09:55:28 PM »
The journey is objectively altered because you're treating level 20 as an entitlement rather than a goal or a reward. Lampshading how relatively riskless it is, you therefore argue it should be effortless; or at the very least, completely uncoupled from effort beyond logging on a bit.

It's a bit like the high levels who hang around the Vallaki Outskirts, fearless of the night, because they know OOC no spawns could hurt them. You've come to terms with the server's flaws, and since you can't suspend disbelief to overlook them, why shouldn't we just change the server's mission so that they're no longer flaws?

It's the wrong direction.

The server is designed to restrict progress, but not uplift people who have fallen behind. It's hardly a goal, you're told you supposed to closure your character around level 20, unofficially yet strongly implied. The server does have flaws, and issues, and this is a suggestion around it. It's just that, a suggestion, an idea, a chance to change things to emphasize the important parts of the server, such as roleplay, and supporting roleplay. I don't think it becomes an entitlement if there's a requirement of play time per week to progress, either; I think it aids people who play, but don't necessarily have the support structures of friends or experience to optimize their play. If they don't log on or participate on the server, they don't get progress.

At least, I didn't think the server's mission was supposed to be grinding in dungeons, but I could be wrong; But I'm not going to split hairs. If you think it's the wrong direction, what do you believe is the right direction, instead? Or have you simply come to terms with the server's flaws and accept them, perfectly fine with the status quo?

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2024, 10:24:06 PM »
First off, what does "not uplift people who have fallen behind" mean? Why are we comparing one person's journey to another? Are you saying that two characters made on the same date ought to level at the same rate? What about their other contributions? Just because time-since-character-creation can be measured objectively doesn't make it a fair and worthy metric for reward.

Quote
The server does have flaws, and issues, and this is a suggestion around it.

Is the solution to the Vallaki Outskirts stuff to shrug one's shoulders and let outlanders treat it like Little Faerun? Or is it to gently encourage an OOC culture of respect for IC Old Night, and to use the various other tools at one's disposal to do justice to the setting?

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the dungeon grind and I'm not defending it. Indeed, earlier in the thread I made the suggestion that I think we could increase RP XP even if it meant lowering regular XP across the board. What I am defending is the sweaty little yellow RP XP ticks, because someone who gets to high level with those has almost certainly made a respectable effort to engage in the server's mission, as opposed to just logging in to collect an entitlement.

I'm completely sympathetic to the people who have a lot of work and struggle with finding the time to play; I've had times when I had long weeks and could only play on weekends. But if I'm on a six month RL work project and can only log on my PC during weekends, I don't think it makes sense for me to be catapulted to higher levels either for the character's journey or the server's mission integrity. That just cheapens the whole experience. I have some characters who have levelled fast because I had a lot of time, and that's great. I've had some characters who've levelled slowly, and that's fine.

As for my own suggestions, I'd be happy to see more RP XP ticks, and more red cap reduction from RP XP. Maybe there could even be RP XP event boosts as a way of encouraging those. I'm happy to broaden the path to level 20 for people who are more on the RP/event side of things. But there should still be some underlying effort, a journey travelled, directly coupled to levels.
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2024, 10:35:44 PM »
First off, what does "not uplift people who have fallen behind" mean? Why are we comparing one person's journey to another? Are you saying that two characters made on the same date ought to level at the same rate? What about their other contributions? Just because time-since-character-creation can be measured objectively doesn't make it a fair and worthy metric for reward.

Quote
The server does have flaws, and issues, and this is a suggestion around it.

Is the solution to the Vallaki Outskirts stuff to shrug one's shoulders and let outlanders treat it like Little Faerun? Or is it to gently encourage an OOC culture of respect for IC Old Night, and to use the various other tools at one's disposal to do justice to the setting?

To be clear, I'm not a fan of the dungeon grind and I'm not defending it. Indeed, earlier in the thread I made the suggestion that I think we could increase RP XP even if it meant lowering regular XP across the board. What I am defending is the sweaty little yellow RP XP ticks, because someone who gets to high level with those has almost certainly made a respectable effort to engage in the server's mission, as opposed to just logging in to collect an entitlement.

I'm completely sympathetic to the people who have a lot of work and struggle with finding the time to play; I've had times when I had long weeks and could only play on weekends. But if I'm on a six month RL work project and can only log on my PC during weekends, I don't think it makes sense for me to be catapulted to higher levels either for the character's journey or the server's mission integrity. That just cheapens the whole experience. I have some characters who have levelled fast because I had a lot of time, and that's great. I've had some characters who've levelled slowly, and that's fine.

As for my own suggestions, I'd be happy to see more RP XP ticks, and more red cap reduction from RP XP. Maybe there could even be RP XP event boosts as a way of encouraging those. I'm happy to broaden the path to level 20 for people who are more on the RP/event side of things. But there should still be some underlying effort, a journey travelled, directly coupled to levels.

Well. Why? If this is a roleplay server, why are we rewarding the effort of engaging in a mechanical system that isn't even directly reflected in the server's established setting? A lot of your replies are like, sarcastic or facetious I think? But I'm asking legitimate questions. Other than a sunken cost fallacy, making it feel as if the norm is to sweatily grind RP ticks because that's how its' been, how would the experience be lessened to have everyone progress at a similar time? Mind you. I'm not saying, everyone always progresses, I'm saying the meter for progression leaves the dungeon grind, for all of its' flaws and quirks, and enters into a general activity requirement. Whether you're dungeoning, or roleplaying, or doing something; As long as you're active on the server for say, idk, a total of 10 hours in the week, you get your full weekly allotment of XP or what-have-you.

I feel like there is a misunderstanding here, in that I am saying that one should get progression without even playing. That isn't what I'm saying. I just think that the progress should be broadened to reward players for engaging in what they enjoy about the server, instead of trying to dungeon for a solely mechanical purpose that doesn't reflect well on roleplay. One could go and become a crafter, and focus on crafting and still progress as the dungeon-delver does, who seeks riches and glory, and bragging rights, who progresses as the Gendarme who lives and does his duty, or as the Barovian Garda who sits on the wall and trains in private in their own Citadel.

The reason I say this, is that naturally finding dungeon opportunities can sometimes be a lost endeavor. You log on, go to Mist Camp, no-one's available to run, or those that are, are either locked by XP or aren't feeling it. You find a dungeon, arrive at the dungeon, and it's at a low spawn. You can have two hours to play that night (a common case, in my circumstance) and yet, spend almost all of it fruitlessly looking for ways to progress your character, which is just .. Unfair, and poorly designed.

The ones who don't suffer from this, are the ones who have OOC groups of pre-designed dungeon runners who group up, log on, get to business being carried or grinding, and then log off. Their progression is fine. I can do that, I don't need what I'm suggesting here, but I certainly see the flaws in the current system eventually discouraging otherwise participant players from being able to achieve their goals despite playtime, and respecting the time that players have available to invest in their characters is a major focus for me, because we're all getting a bit too old to spend so much time on videogames, yet share a passion for the project.

Madame Trousers Son

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2024, 11:12:01 PM »
Actually I was only slightly facetious in the previous post, only about the sweaty little yellow RP ticks bit, and I think I answered your question pretty thoroughly, I think giving something for nothing -- as opposed for engaging in the RPXP system -- makes it cheap.

With respect, I don't think I misunderstood you, I asked you to define what you meant about four or five posts ago and I have been replying to you on your own terms. You've now produced a set of activities that you think should be rewarded. From my perspective, we've finally removed some of the chaff of your argument. My contention is that a lot of these activities boil down to things that are rewarded by RP XP (I doubt solo crafting will ever be rewarded, though, nor would solo Guard/Gendarme RP at the barracks).

Where I was unclear and perhaps should have been clearer, is that I think the RP XP system can and should be expanded and enhanced. I think implementing some sort of RP XP boost function for events would help people with not much time every week to get extra RP XP. Perhaps there could be a function to double RP XP at events for a RL hour or so, administrated by DMs. I think that would be a positive improvement on the status quo.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 11:15:16 PM by Madame Trousers Son »
"The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs."

 - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2316
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Rethinking XP Caps
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2024, 11:24:05 PM »
Well, I thought I had laid my initial idea out clearly a while ago; Activity, though how one would script authenticating activity is up for debate, it's the overall gist I was really pressing on. RP XP ticks could be a way to authenticate the weekly allotment of XP, without relying so heavily or extensively on the grinding culture.

Some people use the term, "MMO Behavior," and while I think boiling down to that term exclusively is a little reductive, I understand where they're coming from. Because the only way you progress on PoTM for the most part, is trying to do dungeons, rather than being rewarded more naturally for engaging in the combined narrative, you end up with a certain subset of players that hunt for, "Warders," and, "Frontliners," and other things that are just trying to check boxes so they can survive a dungeon, which doesn't seem like it's in theme with Ravenloft as a setting, and the more they focus on those aspects of the server, the less compatible they are with the focused parts of the server -- The Hubs, like Dementlieu and Barovia, who essentially manage to entirely disregard the existence and validity of adventurers. It's maybe not a PnP convention, but it's certainly a design choice that PoTM itself has chosen to embrace.

I can agree, that if nothing else, making RP XP a very rewarding endeavour instead of a mild bonus/cooldown reducer for dungeoning would be more in-line with my understanding of the server's focus, but I personally find the dungeon culture of the server to be the worst of both worlds. Including everything I mentioned in my previous post about the struggle of simply finding a group, you're also essentially limited in how much you can do with the group you do find. Five people who have a free evening are cut off from XP one or two dungeons in, and then are forced to try to align everyone's cooldowns with availability to do it again later, requiring quite a bit of OOC communicaton just to get the operation off of the ground, ruining any smooth RP introductions.

I think this is where Arelith shines a little more, these days; You just grind out to your end-game there in a fairly quick manner, and then engage with the geopolitics and roleplay of the setting, and get rewarded for turning over your character. It's just a much better use of time, in general.