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Author Topic: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?  (Read 1722 times)

Talis

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2024, 11:34:59 AM »
I appreciate the responses from Chadyo and MAB - I won't belabor the point beyond this post as I've made my argument and of course no one has to buy it. But I am writing this hoping to open the minds of those in control of these mechanisms right now, and I'd like to clarify my main point, as I feel both of you have not actually addressed it directly.

I completely believe that staff has done a good job when someone is comfortable enough to report and is lucky enough to have the proof you desire. I appreciate that some harassers have been moderated in some way or another. I didn't mean to imply staff has done nothing. I am simply pointing out that the server's current harassment policy is passive, and not strong enough to properly protect all players, and this is one way we lose good players and hold on to harassers.

The main point of my post is meant to explain to why someone might, legitimately, be harassed off the server without being able to meet your requirements for what staff needs to take action to protect players. Why people don't report, are scared to, or simply leave because they don't believe they'll be helped. My point is there are solutions to these problems and staff can take active moderation steps to account for these behaviors which again, it is normal human nature to behave in this way.

Because of the reality of these situations, CC and staff are only seeing a portion of harassment that actually occurs. Again, I am not doubting that you handle well what IS presented to you that conforms to your wishes, but I am asking you to step back beyond the impulse to believe that the reports you see is 100% of the incidents that occur on the server. Especially in this issue area, that is not 100% of the incidents. And this is not from my perspective of only what's been made public. Despite your feelings, players talk to one another, IC and OOC. Along with stories from other who have experienced this, I've also personally seen harassment occurring to others that has gone unreported on several occasions (even when I encourage people to report).

To add to my explanation, I think it is really unfortunate to imply that victims of harassment that don't report, don't care about others. Much more often these are people who have been socialized (by society, this part isn't necessarily the server's fault - again, human issues) to believe that their perspective is not wanted or that it is normal to experience certain levels of harassment. There are players who have experienced IC and OOC harassment while playing female characters who have avoided the harasser, ignored them, stopped playing a few weeks to try and dodge them, and never thought to report them for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they think that the person is only doing it to them - again, because we're socialized to give people the benefit of the doubt and we don't like to think ill of people. Sometimes they think nothing will be done. Or it only happened IC or in tells and they have no screenshots. Again, there are so many reasons and I don't think it's okay to say that these are illegitimate. Instead, we should go out of our way to be proactive, protective, caring.

+1, very well put series of posts. Thanks Limine.

MAB77

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2024, 11:41:58 AM »
(another good post)

+1

I actually disagree again, and I am crafting a reply about it. But more to the actual point, for you and everyone else, please stop posting +1s in this thread. It's really not helping in the debate. Do post if you have something constructive to propose on how best to deal with harassment only.
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Talis

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2024, 11:50:21 AM »
(another good post)

+1

I actually disagree again, and I am crafting a reply about it. But more to the actual point, for you and everyone else, please stop posting +1s in this thread. It's really not helping in the debate. Do post if you have something constructive to propose on how best to deal with harassment only.

I did so because I think it's important to emphasize that those posts really capture the point a few of us are trying to articulate. Namely, that it isn't as simple as some posters are portraying it to be. Particularly posts that suggest that reporting is always the solution and that people who do not feel able or willing to report shoulder either:

1) leave POTM* or 2) get over it.

Some have also suggested that they can just ignore PMs or messages from people they want to block. I think that's a bit silly because they may as well block them, then. It's the same thing except more difficult.

*I am not saying that you have suggested this, MAB. Other posts in the wider context of the thread have however.

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2024, 12:06:13 PM »
I actually disagree again, and I am crafting a reply about it. But more to the actual point, for you and everyone else, please stop posting +1s in this thread. It's really not helping in the debate. Do post if you have something constructive to propose on how best to deal with harassment only.

You are free to agree or disagree as you please, but respectfully, people are reiterating these points because they do not feel they have been addressed meaningfully.
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Chadyo

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2024, 12:24:48 PM »
I completely believe that staff has done a good job when someone is comfortable enough to report and is lucky enough to have the proof you desire. I appreciate that some harassers have been moderated in some way or another. I didn't mean to imply staff has done nothing. I am simply pointing out that the server's current harassment policy is passive, and not strong enough to properly protect all players, and this is one way we lose good players and hold on to harassers.

You guys voted me to do this job, and I want to do this job but for that I require reports. I will never judge anyone. And I value privacy, and most of all I will never share anything we discuss in DM's or voice chat. But if there's no reports made I cannot do anything but sit on my hands. I will always make it clear when we speak in official capacity and when we do not. And if anything requires posted, or logged then I will copy paste to you what I'll be placing on the forum and ask you if that's okay.

This goes for anyone on the server, we're players like yourself but we represent your voices within the team itself. #SpeakToTheCC

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2024, 12:26:43 PM »
I think that harassment actually gets handled quite well on the server from what I can see. Whether it be harassment in game, on discord, or on the forums. Often times it is hard to identify it though, even when it gets reported because, keep in mind that almost always it's via text, so one must ask for context, and figure out what's really going on.

Granted, this is the internet, you're always going to have differing opinions with people, and a lot of those people may either be kind or unkind. I think adding in a block mechanism or something to prevent messages would only create echo chambers and would create more resentment. In my opinion we already have a good amount of echo chambers on the server with a lot of conversations devolving into full blown arguments and insults. If you get to the point where you want to block someone, I doubt that actually blocking them will help anything anyways, they'd just move on to someone/something else or just make another account if they're really malicious.

I think the avenues players have currently for reports and such are good. I just believe that they need to be made more aware, because I do agree that most cases of harassment do not get brought forward. I have been harassed many times on the server, even before I really got involved on the forums or the discord. It actually only worsened after the fact, which says a lot in some areas. But luckily, because I've been reporting the incidents, they've stopped almost entirely.

So I think just letting other players know that they can report harassment and encourage them to do so will be beneficial to the community's health. But it's also worth noting, that not all reports are going to end up dishing out the punishment that you want, so what might appear as a possible ban in your eyes, may just be a slap on the wrist, and vice versa. I've seen some people be reported for things I didn't think they'd get banned for, and boom, next day.

Having trust in the system and encouraging others to have trust/faith will only make the community stronger. Yes the DMs are busy so it takes a while to go through every report, but I can promise on the serious reports, they handle those /quickly/.
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MAB77

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2024, 02:03:05 PM »
I appreciate the responses from Chadyo and MAB - I won't belabor the point beyond this post as I've made my argument and of course no one has to buy it. But I am writing this hoping to open the minds of those in control of these mechanisms right now, and I'd like to clarify my main point, as I feel both of you have not actually addressed it directly.

I completely believe that staff has done a good job when someone is comfortable enough to report and is lucky enough to have the proof you desire. I appreciate that some harassers have been moderated in some way or another. I didn't mean to imply staff has done nothing. I am simply pointing out that the server's current harassment policy is passive, and not strong enough to properly protect all players, and this is one way we lose good players and hold on to harassers.

The main point of my post is meant to explain to why someone might, legitimately, be harassed off the server without being able to meet your requirements for what staff needs to take action to protect players. Why people don't report, are scared to, or simply leave because they don't believe they'll be helped. My point is there are solutions to these problems and staff can take active moderation steps to account for these behaviors which again, it is normal human nature to behave in this way.

Because of the reality of these situations, CC and staff are only seeing a portion of harassment that actually occurs. Again, I am not doubting that you handle well what IS presented to you that conforms to your wishes, but I am asking you to step back beyond the impulse to believe that the reports you see is 100% of the incidents that occur on the server. Especially in this issue area, that is not 100% of the incidents. And this is not from my perspective of only what's been made public. Despite your feelings, players talk to one another, IC and OOC. Along with stories from other who have experienced this, I've also personally seen harassment occurring to others that has gone unreported on several occasions (even when I encourage people to report).

To add to my explanation, I think it is really unfortunate to imply that victims of harassment that don't report, don't care about others. Much more often these are people who have been socialized (by society, this part isn't necessarily the server's fault - again, human issues) to believe that their perspective is not wanted or that it is normal to experience certain levels of harassment. There are players who have experienced IC and OOC harassment while playing female characters who have avoided the harasser, ignored them, stopped playing a few weeks to try and dodge them, and never thought to report them for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they think that the person is only doing it to them - again, because we're socialized to give people the benefit of the doubt and we don't like to think ill of people. Sometimes they think nothing will be done. Or it only happened IC or in tells and they have no screenshots. Again, there are so many reasons and I don't think it's okay to say that these are illegitimate. Instead, we should go out of our way to be proactive, protective, caring.

I am sorry you feel that way, I do think we did address your concerns but I'll try to rephrase it differently and alleviate some concerns about reaching the staff.

Let me first be clear that we do take harassment most seriously. I am even aware of a case where we helped someone gather proofs for legal proceedings. This says alot on how far we are willing to go to stop it. Like everyone else, we have every reasons and desire to see it eliminated for good. On this at the very least I trust that we are unanimous.

We have explained already why the option for a player to block another is not acceptable. It's not a good way to deal with harassment issues. It's only ignoring it at best, and allows the harasser to continue with others at worst. An harasser that is really motivated could also change his IP address and create a different account to just continue circumventing this feature. The staff needs to be involved if a more permanent solution is to be found. Such feature also opens the door for a different kind of unacceptable behavior, "blocking another just because I don't like him". There is actually a very good probabilty that it would be used that way much more often than we see an actual harassment case. This does not imply harassment cases are not problematic btw, but it does imply we'd be creating more problems than this proposed solution actually solves. That's reason enough not to go forward with this solution. But we'd certainly be willing to implement other measures if a more solid one can be found.

As the managers of the server, we are quite happy to share the sandbox with the community, it is why we build it in the first place, but it is still our sandbox and we remain its caretaker. We do strive to create an environment where players do not have to take care of these kind of issues in their own hands. We are the moderators, and if there is a problem, it is important that we be informed. No one in the staff is implying that people not reporting issues do not care about others, but making this place a fun and safe place to be is a collective responsibility. The crux of it is really that we can't address isues we are not made aware of.

When you say, CC and staff are only seeing a portion of harassment that actually occurs, while this may be true, be it on the forum, Discord, or in-game, we are still mainly just using a text based medium. You won't have better proofs than that to make your point. Our requirements are also really simple, if you can prove that you asked someone to stop harassing you, and that said person continues, you need no more. So I have a hard time understanding your statement about people unable to meet our requirements. I get it that sometimes we will not have taken a critical screenshot at the right moment in-game, but for the forums that would not be an issue. For the IG cases where you do not have screenshots, it is still worth a shot to relay concerns to the staff. We can still keep an eye on a given situation and have a chat with the involved people before it escalates further. And more to the point, if it does escalate we'll already have notes on the matter.

I cannot stress enough the fact that the staff can be, and should be, trusted. If there is a problem and you knock on our door in good faith, you will be helped. And if really you do not trust anyone else on the staff, try me. I will act as a liaison and make sure due process is followed. I guarantee complete confidentiality if requested. Though I can be a hardass at times, even those I have often spared with on these forums but took the time to reach out privately can attest that I don't hold a grudge and that I relay all concerns earnestly. I do not guarantee the end result will be what you wanted, but your request will be dealt with fairly. That much I can promise.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 02:14:08 PM by MAB77 »
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MAB77

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2024, 02:05:42 PM »
I actually disagree again, and I am crafting a reply about it. But more to the actual point, for you and everyone else, please stop posting +1s in this thread. It's really not helping in the debate. Do post if you have something constructive to propose on how best to deal with harassment only.

You are free to agree or disagree as you please, but respectfully, people are reiterating these points because they do not feel they have been addressed meaningfully.

Meaningfully? Or to their satisfaction? That's 2 quite different outcomes. And I did say I was preparing my reply. Which has now just be posted.
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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2024, 02:16:33 PM »
I appreciate the responses from Chadyo and MAB - I won't belabor the point beyond this post as I've made my argument and of course no one has to buy it. But I am writing this hoping to open the minds of those in control of these mechanisms right now, and I'd like to clarify my main point, as I feel both of you have not actually addressed it directly.

I completely believe that staff has done a good job when someone is comfortable enough to report and is lucky enough to have the proof you desire. I appreciate that some harassers have been moderated in some way or another. I didn't mean to imply staff has done nothing. I am simply pointing out that the server's current harassment policy is passive, and not strong enough to properly protect all players, and this is one way we lose good players and hold on to harassers.

The main point of my post is meant to explain to why someone might, legitimately, be harassed off the server without being able to meet your requirements for what staff needs to take action to protect players. Why people don't report, are scared to, or simply leave because they don't believe they'll be helped. My point is there are solutions to these problems and staff can take active moderation steps to account for these behaviors which again, it is normal human nature to behave in this way.

Because of the reality of these situations, CC and staff are only seeing a portion of harassment that actually occurs. Again, I am not doubting that you handle well what IS presented to you that conforms to your wishes, but I am asking you to step back beyond the impulse to believe that the reports you see is 100% of the incidents that occur on the server. Especially in this issue area, that is not 100% of the incidents. And this is not from my perspective of only what's been made public. Despite your feelings, players talk to one another, IC and OOC. Along with stories from other who have experienced this, I've also personally seen harassment occurring to others that has gone unreported on several occasions (even when I encourage people to report).

To add to my explanation, I think it is really unfortunate to imply that victims of harassment that don't report, don't care about others. Much more often these are people who have been socialized (by society, this part isn't necessarily the server's fault - again, human issues) to believe that their perspective is not wanted or that it is normal to experience certain levels of harassment. There are players who have experienced IC and OOC harassment while playing female characters who have avoided the harasser, ignored them, stopped playing a few weeks to try and dodge them, and never thought to report them for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they think that the person is only doing it to them - again, because we're socialized to give people the benefit of the doubt and we don't like to think ill of people. Sometimes they think nothing will be done. Or it only happened IC or in tells and they have no screenshots. Again, there are so many reasons and I don't think it's okay to say that these are illegitimate. Instead, we should go out of our way to be proactive, protective, caring.

I am sorry you feel that way, I do think we did address your concerns but I'll try to rephrase it differently and alleviate some concerns about reaching the staff.

Let me first be clear that we do take harassment most seriously. I am even aware of a case where we helped someone gather proofs for legal proceedings. This says alot on how far we are willing to go to stop it. Like everyone else, we have every reasons and desire to see it eliminated for good. On this at the very least I trust that we are unanimous.

We have explained already why the option for a player to block another is not acceptable. It's not a good way to deal with harassment issues. It's only ignoring it at best, and allows the harasser to continue with others at worst. An harasser that is really motivated could also change his IP address and create a different account to just continue circumventing this feature. The staff needs to be involved if a more permanent solution is to be found. Such feature also opens the door for a different kind of unacceptable behavior, "blocking another just because I don't like him". There is actually a very good probabilty that it would be used that way much more often than we see an actual harassment case. This does not imply harassment cases are not problematic btw, but it does imply we'd be creating more problems than this proposed solution actually solves. That's reason enough not to go forward with this solution. But we'd certainly be willing to implement other measures if a more solid one can be find.

As the managers of the server, we are quite happy to share the sandbox with the community, it is why we build it in the first place, but it is still our sandbox and we remain its caretaker. We do strive to create an environment where players do not have to take care of these kind of issues in their own hands. We are the moderators, and if there is a problem, it is important that we be informed. No one in the staff is implying that people not reporting issues do not care about others, but making this place a fun and safe place to be is a collective responsibility. The crux of it is really that we can't address isues we are not made aware of.

When you say, CC and staff are only seeing a portion of harassment that actually occurs, while this may be true, be it on the forum, Discord, or in-game, we are still mainly just using a text based medium. You won't have better proofs than that to make your point. Our requirements are also really simple, if you can prove that you asked someone to stop harassing you, and that said person continues, you need no more. So I have a hard time understanding your statement about people unable to meet our requirements. I get it that sometimes we will not have taken a critical screenshot at the right moment in-game, but for the forums that would not be an issue. For the IG cases where you do not have screenshots, it is still worth a shot to relay concerns to the staff. We can still keep an eye on a given situation and have a chat with the involved people before it escalates further. And more to the point, if it does escalate we'll already have notes on the matter.

I cannot stress enough the fact that the staff can be, and should be, trusted. If there is a problem and you knock on our door in good faith, you will be helped. And if really you do not trust anyone else on the staff, try me. I will act as a liaison and make sure due process is followed. I guarantee complete confidentiality if requested. Though I can be a hardass at times, even those I have often spared with on these forums but took the time to reach out privately can attest that I don't hold a grudge and that I relay all concerns earnestly. I do not guarantee the end result will be what you wanted, but your request will be dealt with fairly. That much I can promise.


I support this, as someone that has come to the team without the needed evidence, and had them seriously go out of their way to help me resolve it. The team has always taken me seriously and when I didn't feel a normal DM was helpful, sometimes I go right to Brimstone, or EO or even MAB outright and I know I am heard. Reporting and discussing with them is the best way, and if not, speak to the CC, Agony has admittedly been my go to, always.

Maiyannah

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2024, 02:28:50 PM »
Meaningfully? Or to their satisfaction? That's 2 quite different outcomes. And I did say I was preparing my reply. Which has now just be posted.

Unless your intention is making POTM a single-player game, these are one and the same.

Quote
We have explained already why the option for a player to block another is not acceptable. It's not a good way to deal with harassment issues. It's only ignoring it at best, and allows the harasser to continue with others at worst. An harasser that is really motivated could also change his IP address and create a different account to just continue circumventing this feature. The staff needs to be involved if a more permanent solution is to be found.

So I have been on the administration end in several other roleplaying communities and while I'm certain this might sound compelling to the average player, to someone who's been dealing with these kinds of things from the admin end it really isn't.

Let me put a hard truth out there: no admininstration team on this Earth is going to solve every problem of harassment or abuse proactively - it isn't going to happen.  So this, yes, does seem to indicate we should be relying on reports, doesn't it?  Except no amount of victim-blaming, shaming, or calling people whom don't want to deal with this "dead weight" shirking their reponsibilities to their fellow players is going to change the fact that the average person playing a video game for their personal enjoyment does not want to deal with a reporting process to not have their tells spamming with homophobia for two hours, or whatever other disruptive trolling you may imagine.

Moreover, even the most excellent administration team is going to take time to properly arbitrate these reports - time during which an ongoing scene is being disrupted, time during which the harm is happening, clear and present, and no one can take any meaningful course of action to stop it.

I cannot shut off my tells, at the present time.  I cannot turn off PMs if someone decides to spam me with 1000 messages of their dong.  It is not something I can do.  In that time I am powerless.  And that harm is present and ongoing for as until the DMs do something about it - often days, sometimes weeks later, which is not a tenable turnaround.

If you leave players feeling powerless for long enough, their action is going to be "play something else" - which, you personally may not consider a problem, hey no more reports, right?  Don't have to deal with May whom you often disagree with if she sods off somewheres else.  And that much is true, as sardonically as I may express it, I do mean it genuinely.  This is a path you can take - but I feel it is a non-constructive one.  Sweeping issues under the rug hasn't worked in the past for POTM and I don't expect that something so rank as this is going to change that fact.

Much of the argument against having a block functionality seems to be made coached in the language of free speech, of an ideal that we should be reasonable adults and communicate freely, however I would point out that there is no freedom of speech without also freedom of association: whom I choose to associate with, and whom I choose not to associate with, are in and of themselves speech that I make or do not make through ommission, and it is, as William Roberts, suggests, the adult thing to do, to try to avoid players with whose personality you clash.  If you adopt a position where you have to talk to all players at all "honest dialogue" points, then what you have done is adopted a position whereby people whom already feel they cannot express themselves are squeezed out of the environment.  Perhaps you do not consider those people a loss, but I have lost good roleplaying partners to just this discomfort - my own IRL partner doesn't want to play here for just that reason, as one pointed example - as have other players, such as Limine, as related in their thoughtful post.

Mab, you and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things but I think you're an intelligent and caring enough person to realize that this position is the reason, at least in part, for the poor reputation POTM has among some players that you have posted in complaint of sometimes.  Whether the administration cares to rectify that is a choice you make, and all I can do is to try to persuade you towards paths that I think are more helpful.  And to be clear, respectfully, I don't think "just deal with it" or "leave" are reasonable options to put on the table when people feel uncomfortable.

We seem to have drawn lines between the perennial "everything is working okay for me" argument and those to whom it hasn't; and I would posit that some self-reflection as to why that it is the case, and how to address that failure, is more viable than persisting in the unhelpful refrain "works for me!"  No one has ever fixed a problem by stating "works for me!"

I believe that giving people tools to regulate their environment and set their boundaries is only a healthy thing, and this is something I know very well from experience, both as an admin on countless MUDs before now, and also from my experience developing social networking software.  Expecting everyone to get along and the admin to deal with everyone who won't is niave, and it's a niavete I myself reflected when I first started work on said social networking software.  I learned this the hard way, and I am begging, pleading for you to learn from the negative outcomes I have myself faced in other projects.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 02:34:00 PM by Maiyannah »
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Destinysdesire

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2024, 02:39:09 PM »
Just gonna say, if someone is spamming you 1000 messages of their dong...go on the discord and say you need a DM urgently....DMs can and WILL respond if its urgent, because that is sexual in nature and not allowed on the server and I have asked DMs urgently to step in, and they have. Something like that where the abuse is happening and cannot be stopped needs a more urgent response and sometimes...DMs can and will step in. I can say I have asked DM Enigma to step in and he has.

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2024, 02:51:57 PM »
I just want to reiterate the point that for every anecdote of the system working (whether from the perspective of staff who see it working, or reporters who felt their report was dealt with in a satisfying manner), there are anecdotes which many of us arguing in this thread have, as well as heaps of anecdotes of those who have stayed silent or been driven off.

You can't say the system is working based only on cases you see within your system, when what we're telling you is that your system is not working for everyone.

Needing to access someone like yourself MAB, or EO, or Brimstone, speaks to the reality that when you report something often you will not even be told your report was received unless you insist on asking if it was. You will get 0 followup at all after that. You cannot have a completely opaque system and then tell us "the system is working" while we sit here with countless experiences in which the system did not work. Harassers and homophobes and the such that we see are still here.

Finally, a note - I deeply believe that when you manage such a large community of human beings, you have a duty to try to understand differing perspectives from your own. While I understand it is hard for you to understand that people are cowed from reporting, despite your posts encouraging them to (while the rest of the server victim-blames and offers dog whistles), I asked you to at least accept that this is the situation and seek proactive measures to protect against harassment better.

If staff was open to it, there are a lot of suggestions I could make but I get the sense it would be a waste given the tenor of the thread. I'll leave a few just for the sake of having a complete argument.

-Chat filters in discord and on the forums to prevent the use of slurs and detect when people attempt their use.
-Expand on the rules against harassment - make them more clear, comprehensive, and make it easier to get banned for harassment.
-Add additional rules and expand the definition of disallowed language. There is harassing language used frequently in the discord, for example, and it is ignored when players express discomfort in the chat.
-Onboard and train additional moderators - I know we have moderators and active CC mods know that I will report things when I can, and I know that they deal with things, but there's simply not enough of them and they are not active enough. Ideally a position totally separation from CC/DM/Dev, particularly drawing from pools of active and reliable players.
-Affirmatively approach people who are potential victims of harassment. This is something moderators could do. When people have bubble-ups of toxic conversations on the forums or discord, or someone implies they have blocked someone on discord, or ridicules someone, staff needs to check in with one or both players to ensure nothing is happening that needs to be stepped-in on. Allowing these incidents to sit unaddressed fosters toxicity, and it leaves harassed players feeling even more alone.
-Ticket System & Truly Anonymous Reporting - tickets can be part of ensuring there is some transparency. A staff member will let you know when it's been seen, ask for additional information. Staff can provide updates here too. On the other hand, a place to submit reports anonymously, at least temporarily until trust is restored, could be helpful.
-Do not allow ban appeals for those banned on egregious harassment charges (especially sexual-themed issues IC and OOC)
-Open up a modicum of transparency, or at least compassion on submission of reports. Do not leave reporters on read. People will never report again when you do this - you can draw from real life examples of how to handle harassment claims in real life (and they will tell others, who will be convinced not to report). This should be an institutional policy, meaning staff or moderators can get in trouble if they do not provide proper feedback to a report. If the counterargument here is that telling a victim "we looked into this and enforcement has taken place" with no other information, somehow creates problems or toxicity in other communities, I'd like specifics and proof.

Just a few thoughts, lots of other proposals out there on the internet, like blocking tools. This is not the only community facing this problem, this community just hasn't moved forward in its approach to moderation in a very long time.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 02:58:32 PM by Limine »
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Destinysdesire

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2024, 02:58:14 PM »
Spoiler: show
I just want to reiterate the point that for every anecdote of the system working (whether from the perspective of staff who see it working, or reporters who felt their report was dealt with in a satisfying manner), there are anecdotes which many of us arguing in this thread have, as well as heaps of anecdotes of those who have stayed silent or been driven off.

You can't say the system is working based only on cases you see within your system, when what we're telling you is that your system is not working for everyone.

Needing to access someone like yourself MAB, or EO, or Brimstone, speaks to the reality that when you report something often you will not even be told your report was received unless you insist on asking if it was. You will get 0 followup at all after that. You cannot have a completely opaque system and then tell us "the system is working" while we sit here with countless experiences in which the system did not work. Harassers and homophobes and the such that we see are still here.

Finally, a note - I deeply believe that when you manage such a large community of human beings, you have a duty to try to understand differing perspectives from your own. While I understand it is hard for you to understand that people are cowed from reporting, despite your posts encouraging them to (while the rest of the server victim-blames and offers dog whistles), I asked you to at least accept that this is the situation and seek proactive measures to protect against harassment better.

If staff was open to it, there are a lot of suggestions I could make but I get the sense it would be a waste given the tenor of the thread. I'll leave a few just for the sake of having a complete argument.

-Chat filters in discord and on the forums to prevent the use of slurs and detect when people attempt their use.
-Expand on the rules against harassment - make them more clear, comprehensive, and make it easier to get banned for harassment.
-Add additional rules and expand the definition of disallowed language. There is harassing language used frequently in the discord, for example, and it is ignored when players express discomfort in the chat.
-Onboard and train additional moderators - I know we have moderators and active CC mods know that I will report things when I can, and I know that they deal with things, but there's simply not enough of them and they are not active enough. Ideally a position totally separation from CC/DM/Dev, particularly drawing from pools of active and reliable players.
-Affirmatively approach people who are potential victims of harassment. This is something moderators could do. When people have bubble-ups of toxic conversations on the forums or discord, or someone implies they have blocked someone on discord, or ridicules someone, staff needs to check in with one or both players to ensure nothing is happening that needs to be stepped-in on. Allowing these incidents to sit unaddressed fosters toxicity, and it leaves harassed players feeling even more alone.
-Ticket System & Truly Anonymous Reporting - tickets can be part of ensuring there is some transparency. A staff member will let you know when it's been seen, ask for additional information. Staff can provide updates here too. On the other hand, a place to submit reports anonymously, at least temporarily until trust is restored, could be helpful.
-Do not allow ban appeals for those banned on egregious harassment charges (especially sexual-themed issues IC and OOC)
-Open up a modicum of transparency, or at least compassion on submission of reports. Do not leave reporters on read. People will never report again when you do this - you can draw from real life examples of how to handle harassment claims in real life (and they will tell others, who will be convinced not to report). This should be an institutional policy, meaning staff or moderators can get in trouble if they do not provide proper feedback to a report.

Just a few thoughts, lots of other proposals out there on the internet, like blocking tools. This is not the only community facing this problem, this community just hasn't moved forward in its approach to moderation in a very long time.




Following up on this..

I would love to see a lot more response on receiving messages, be it from the DMs, Devs, CC, anyone that is part of this. Some DMs do actively do this, I know DM Brimstone is very good for this as are a few others....but it is not uncommon for no answer to ever come forward as to whether or not our message was received or lost to the eternal void of the internet which can and often does make people feel unheard. Also even a follow up of...Hey there, we have addressed this, we cannot discuss details but if you have any further concerns, please do not hesitate to reach out to us....would likely leave a lot of reassurance that things are being dealt with....just my 2 cents in the matter.

RedMoney

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2024, 04:02:24 PM »
I don't see how an ignore feature would actually increase how insular the community is, nor do I think the community is as insular as people think it is.  There are plenty of people here that put in tons of effort to be inclusive.

I think if an ignore feature was added, people would rarely use it. The idea that it would be used for pettiness actually suggests a lack of faith in the community to behave maturely, which is ironic when the staff's vision is that people should resolve their conflicts by behaving maturely.

Also, the ignores can be tracked and data can be viewed to see who is being ignored and by how many people, mass ignores being a symptom of an underlying issue that could then be looked into.
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MAB77

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2024, 04:31:30 PM »
[...]

I will reply to you in private as to not derail this thread.

I just want to reiterate the point that for every anecdote of the system working (whether from the perspective of staff who see it working, or reporters who felt their report was dealt with in a satisfying manner), there are anecdotes which many of us arguing in this thread have, as well as heaps of anecdotes of those who have stayed silent or been driven off.

You can't say the system is working based only on cases you see within your system, when what we're telling you is that your system is not working for everyone.

Well, yes, I can actually say that the system is working well enough. I am priviledged to have the backroom access to what's happening on the server. Granted I don't get the same access as DMs or CCs, but I've been a CC before (and likely will again at some point) I have a good idea of what is working and what is not. And I'm told the current CC is pretty much on top of things. I have no reasons to doubt them.

There is such things in computing called metrics. There is a lot of things that we can measure and evaluate. For sure, harassment isn't something that is so obvious or easy to calculate. But people do talk a lot, and it turns out most talk to us too. Whenever there is a genuine harassment issue, we are usually informed of it. And when most players tell us things are going fine, it probably is. So yeah, we do have a good idea of what happens on the server.

I'm well aware that there are stories around of how the staff failed. I've seen the off-forum posts. Some of the horror stories did happen. Yes. I will never pretend everything was always peachy or that we don't make mistake. But for the most part, it's a lot of bullshit that really never happend the way they say it did. Disgruntled players that shared only a one-side part of the story, leaving out their actual misdeeds out of it. People manipulating a whole group of persons for their own personal gains. That too I have seen. The truth still is that most players punished for a reason or another did deserve it.

Now is it to your liking? That is for you to answer. Could we do better? I'm sure we could. Is it working for everyone? No. In every communities, and we are no exception, there will always be the disgruntled and their will be division. But the truth is more on the side of it's going rather well, better than what some say, and maybe a bit worse than what I say (but not by much). Fact is, its the lack of staff more than anything else that hurts us now. So do volunteer if you think you have what it takes.

I'll be 100% honest with you, I'd totally shut down the Tell channel permanently for RP reasons, if not for the fact that it is actually useful to coordinate things OOCly and that we'd otherwise be flooded with even more //OOC messages in the main channel. But that would adress your IG harasment issues would it not?
 

Needing to access someone like yourself MAB, or EO, or Brimstone, speaks to the reality that when you report something often you will not even be told your report was received unless you insist on asking if it was. You will get 0 followup at all after that. You cannot have a completely opaque system and then tell us "the system is working" while we sit here with countless experiences in which the system did not work. Harassers and homophobes and the such that we see are still here.

As a witness to the great implosion of the original Richterm Retreat server precisely because of too much transparency. Yes, I still dare say the current system is rather good. You best make a reason of it though. That's not about to change. It protected the community from needless toxicity for nearly 2 decades and still does. I understand why some players do not like that and the issues that cause in itself, but it better that than the way around.

As for harassers and homophobes and the such, if you can proove they are still around, you likely can prove their misdeeds too.
One more thing, we have a punishment track. Except in special cases there will be warnings before a ban. That does not mean the situation was not addressed.

Finally, a note - I deeply believe that when you manage such a large community of human beings, you have a duty to try to understand differing perspectives from your own. While I understand it is hard for you to understand that people are cowed from reporting, despite your posts encouraging them to (while the rest of the server victim-blames and offers dog whistles), I asked you to at least accept that this is the situation and seek proactive measures to protect against harassment better.

Oh trust me we do. You have no idea the wide range of opinions out there. Don't believe for an instant that 20 disgruntled fews speak for the 500+ players out there. There are at best the Vocal Minority (and they certainly reach the +50 cap on the Scream skill). They are not always wrong. But I wish they would learn to moderate the way they pass their concerns. It's easier to reach a compromise when both sides are willing to talk.

Never assume that I do not understand why people do not wish to report. I actually do. But that does not justify bypassing the staff when there is a problem.

If staff was open to it, there are a lot of suggestions I could make but I get the sense it would be a waste given the tenor of the thread. I'll leave a few just for the sake of having a complete argument.

-Chat filters in discord and on the forums to prevent the use of slurs and detect when people attempt their use.
-Expand on the rules against harassment - make them more clear, comprehensive, and make it easier to get banned for harassment.
-Add additional rules and expand the definition of disallowed language. There is harassing language used frequently in the discord, for example, and it is ignored when players express discomfort in the chat.
-Onboard and train additional moderators - I know we have moderators and active CC mods know that I will report things when I can, and I know that they deal with things, but there's simply not enough of them and they are not active enough. Ideally a position totally separation from CC/DM/Dev, particularly drawing from pools of active and reliable players.
-Affirmatively approach people who are potential victims of harassment. This is something moderators could do. When people have bubble-ups of toxic conversations on the forums or discord, or someone implies they have blocked someone on discord, or ridicules someone, staff needs to check in with one or both players to ensure nothing is happening that needs to be stepped-in on. Allowing these incidents to sit unaddressed fosters toxicity, and it leaves harassed players feeling even more alone.
-Ticket System & Truly Anonymous Reporting - tickets can be part of ensuring there is some transparency. A staff member will let you know when it's been seen, ask for additional information. Staff can provide updates here too. On the other hand, a place to submit reports anonymously, at least temporarily until trust is restored, could be helpful.
-Do not allow ban appeals for those banned on egregious harassment charges (especially sexual-themed issues IC and OOC)
-Open up a modicum of transparency, or at least compassion on submission of reports. Do not leave reporters on read. People will never report again when you do this - you can draw from real life examples of how to handle harassment claims in real life (and they will tell others, who will be convinced not to report). This should be an institutional policy, meaning staff or moderators can get in trouble if they do not provide proper feedback to a report. If the counterargument here is that telling a victim "we looked into this and enforcement has taken place" with no other information, somehow creates problems or toxicity in other communities, I'd like specifics and proof.

Just a few thoughts, lots of other proposals out there on the internet, like blocking tools. This is not the only community facing this problem, this community just hasn't moved forward in its approach to moderation in a very long time.

Now THAT is a constructive part. Criticism with suggestions on how to improve things does accomplish a lot more than just disagreeing endlessly. These points will be evaluated by the staff.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 05:59:37 PM by MAB77 »
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Alalaurealarialelia

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2024, 07:49:06 PM »
Ideally, every person breaking the server rules should get reported and every time you told someone to leave you alone and they did not do so afterwards, staff should also get informed. Because, as Chadyo pointed out and should be obvious to everyone, they can only help if they know.

I think Limine has already pointed out very well what might cause issues to go unreported and made great ideas for improvement. Expanding on these points and ideas, I believe, from experience, that a certain amount of unreported incidents result from people who are so used to putting others before themselves that they feel terrible reporting, and thus in their mind "harming", even those who wronged them. Or they may be in the unfortunate situation where an entire group of people is mistreating them and telling them that this is fine or they deserve this and they have no one close they can trust instead to talk about it.

Anonymity can often be key in getting people like that to talk at all about these issues so I like the idea Limine has brought up in that regard the most. I was also wondering if it could help to put fictional examples of what would constitute a certain rule break up on the forums for each and every rule. That way, people who really should be reporting someone but are too insecure to be certain about it, could maybe get some extra safety if they see that their situation is really similar to a certain misconduct example.

Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2024, 09:06:46 PM »
I don't think the community is big enough for an ignore feature. It's one thing if this was like OSRS or something and there was literally millions of players...

We have a little over 100 peak. The community is small and kind of insular everyone knows each other or of each other.

Game is also over 20 years old and everyone would consider NWN a 'retro' game. We should try to get along and work with the team to work out problems rather than trying to 'ignore' each other. It eventually becomes impossible.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Can we implement Simple Machine Forums ignore list feature?
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2024, 04:43:23 PM »
I swear a thread like this props up in one form or another every... Year or so. I don't think it's particularly healthy for people to just ignore other people using digital functions, this isn't social media, it's a roleplaying community in a small, niche game. If you have issues with someone, get it resolved, or get over it, and move on. We're all adults here, and the mature way of handling disagreements is to find the middle-ground where everyone can get along and be productive, not focusing on your differences and exacerbating them to the point you can't co-exist.

Ignore functions only aid the latter outcome. You aren't being asked to make the people here your best friends, you're being asked to be professional and respectful with them as roleplayers for the sake of the goal of being here: Roleplaying.

Like, you don't have to read someone's forum post. If you see they've posted, gloss over it. If you lack that self-control, then there's a deeper issue here than the need for a block button. I sometimes think the era of social media has ruined our ability to utilize basic social skills.