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Author Topic: Body carrying indicator  (Read 2587 times)

Helmbreaker

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #100 on: September 14, 2024, 05:04:16 PM »
You could approach them and ask them what happened, and probably 99% of the time you will get the response that someone died while out adventuring.

I mean... that is RP. Even if it's true that in 99% of cases this lie holds even in the case of actual PvP, it's 1% more than the current system!

And I think yours is possibly a pessimistic outlook, I think that in some cases when potential clues are witnessed, it would add some depth to investigative RP.

Okay, but then what? If they wont tell you whose body it is, or why they are carrying it, can you interact with this further? If you demand they drop the corpse because they wont offer you an explanation, is that grounds to attack them?

No for the same reason why you can't just up and do bandit RP. "Stand and deliver 1000 gold or your life". I'm pretty sure people carrying corpses in middle ages settings is kind of normal anyway?

I mean I drove past a hearse today on my way to Chinese food, I didn't roll up to the guy driving it and then roll my window down and shout "HEY! WHAT HAPPENED!? WHOSE THAT?"

So far the only real reason I've seen people advocating for this is because they seem to think it will somehow give them an indication of recent PvP and I really don't see how it will. No one needs to provide an explanation for the body in their inventory, unless confronted by a guard. And even if they do answer you, it's easy enough for that person to lie (died in a dungeon).

I doubt it would be difficult to implement  from the back-end to check if there is a corpse in a player's inventory, but then becomes the larger design question of how do people know you are carrying corpses in the first place? A response from a dev was already given that it is acceptable to put bodies into bags. Other players can't see into bags:

Take the following opinion with a grain of salt, not as a ruling, but we do allow the transport of corpses in magical bag as a matter of convenience, and those visibly act as non-dimensional spaces. PC corpses are not the only large item we have that would technically be too large to carry in a backpack. A bagged corpse, pun unintended, would not be apparent. I otherwise do like the idea of an indicator.

So this simple implementation of body checks now needs to readdress and redesign how inventory and bags are handled. That is a much bigger undertaking and a much bigger ask. Personally, I don't see it worth completely overhauling how bags are designed just so that we can tell if someone is carrying a corpse.

Frankz

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2024, 05:15:14 PM »
Carrying a body around falls into the same category as walking around after dark with a pair of bolt cutters.

Both could have harmless explenations. Both definately have the chance of random people trying to get involved in your business.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2024, 05:50:24 PM »
No, we don't need to redesign the way inventory and bags are handled in the event that the team decides to add an indicator for bodies. This is where suspension of disbelief cutting both ways applies. Bodies can be a special exception.

Maybe the spotting PC sees traces of blood around the bag's neck. Maybe they see some other clue. The point is it's okay to recognise different OOC standards of fairness for someone's gear, or for a smuggling PC, or for the victim of a PvP act.

Is it weird? Maybe. The whole PvP / corpse-hiding mechanic is weird, though. You can't destroy corpses by throwing them into a volcano; you can't sink them into the bottom of a lake; and these aren't merely game engine restrictions, the point is you can't even ask a DM to do these things. The OOC logic of PVP already overrides real-world logic in a number of places.

So when considering this question, I think the more important arguments are: is it fairer, and will it drive relevant RP?

Personally I think it will drive RP because it creates the possibility for people to witness someone moving corpses, but that's my subjective opinion as a Gendarme player who spends a lot of time talking to potential witnesses to IC crimes.

As to the question of fairness, I honestly don't know. I accept that everyone's going to have a different perspective on this. In my mind, the corpse-hiding part isn't the hard part of PvP, so introducing an appropriate challenge here by introducing IC risks turns what is otherwise a risk-free and frankly quite mundane action into something with a potential element of failure, and that seems more interesting to me than the status quo at least.
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Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2024, 06:05:42 PM »
So far the only real reason I've seen people advocating for this is because they seem to think it will somehow give them an indication of recent PvP and I really don't see how it will.

It will, especially if your buddy on discord messages you "yo they shanked Tommy in the camp and took a caravan lmao" "Oh bro I wanted that bounty rofl". I truly see nothing more than PVP shenanigans and meta-gaming.

No one needs to provide an explanation for the body in their inventory, unless confronted by a guard. And even if they do answer you, it's easy enough for that person to lie (died in a dungeon)

+1

That is a much bigger undertaking and a much bigger ask. Personally, I don't see it worth completely overhauling how bags are designed just so that we can tell if someone is carrying a corpse.

+1 it's really not worth it and I see the potential for more harm than good.

Both could have harmless explenations. Both definately have the chance of random people trying to get involved in your business.

Not if you've lived in a bad neighborhood before. You either mind your own business or you call the cops. No one wants to be tangled in business that isn't theirs especially if it will get you in trouble with the wrong people. Especially not... whatever the hell some strange guy is doing with bolt cutters in the middle of the night.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 02:13:54 AM by The True Form of Giygas' Attack (Birdman) »

Maiyannah

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #104 on: September 14, 2024, 09:17:15 PM »
No for the same reason why you can't just up and do bandit RP. "Stand and deliver 1000 gold or your life". I'm pretty sure people carrying corpses in middle ages settings is kind of normal anyway?

No it wasn't, actually, it was considered unholy to touch a corpse prior to the viaticum and it was believed that you would be accursed by God if you did.

Also that quote you have from Mab doesn't actually say that.
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Frankz

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2024, 10:09:07 PM »
If you think people in the hood "mind their own business" you shouldn't care if they are carrying a body by your same logic.

Making things intentionally vague helps no one.

 If bags are okay to hide corpses. Why cant I just hide a bag with a corpse inside it behind a mountain? Way smaller and attracts less attention.

Logic =/= gameplay

Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #106 on: September 15, 2024, 02:13:30 AM »
If you think people in the hood "mind their own business" you shouldn't care if they are carrying a body by your same logic.

That's not what I said. What I said is in bad neighborhoods it's better to mind your own business or if you're really worried call the police. It's not what I 'think' either I've lived in bad neighborhoods for a good chunk of my life.

As for carrying a body that could be anything from; dead man, sick man, drunk man. I mean you see something suspicious you can and should report it to the police. You don't get yourself involved though. That's a huge mistake and is asking for way may trouble than you would bargain for.

The people that don't want to mind their own business are usually up to something. There's never a reason to approach potential criminals and personally get in the way of whatever it is their doing.

If bags are okay to hide corpses. Why cant I just hide a bag with a corpse inside it behind a mountain? Way smaller and attracts less attention.

Logic =/= gameplay

Because that's against game rules. It isn't really a matter of Logic vs Gameplay. Letting everyone know you have a corpse but not other things does nothing but invite other players to bother you over what is 99% of the time a trivial and non-pvp related matter, or open a can of worms for meta gaming in pvp matters.

>Get Killed in PVP
>Come back as a ghost
>See Ted has your body
>Tell Ralph that Ted has your body over Discord or Skype or something
>Ralph confronts Ted. Claims he had a friend in stealth see him pick up Ted's body so he knows (even though he truly wouldn't).
>PVP Ted over OOCly acquired knowledge masqueraded as IC knowledge.

Current system ain't broke no need to fix it.

Also that quote you have from Mab doesn't actually say that.

Oh my bad I dissected the quote incorrectly on accident. I'll fix it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 02:16:01 AM by The True Form of Giygas' Attack (Birdman) »

Frankz

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #107 on: September 15, 2024, 03:13:00 AM »
>Ralph confronts Ted. Claims he had a friend in stealth see him pick up Ted's body so he knows (even though he truly wouldn't).

Sounds like meta gaming is already involved. Compare this to what? Ted's friend kills you then gives Ted your body and now you can never know who did it? Or is Ted's friend apparently disguised? How is the person not just OOCly reading Ted's friends name in the combat log, then claiming the same stealther friend who never existed witnessed the assassination and the same thing takes place?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 04:21:07 AM by Frankz »

AKnownyMouse

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #108 on: September 15, 2024, 03:45:34 AM »
>Ralph confronts Ted. Claims he had a friend in stealth see him pick up Ted's body so he knows (even though he truly wouldn't).

Sounds like meta gaming is already involved. Compare this to what? Ted's friend kills you then gives Ted your body and now you can never know who did it? Or is Ted apparently disguised? How is the person not just OOCly reading Ted's name in the combat log, then claiming the same stealther friend who never existed witnessed the assassination and the same thing takes place?

Disguises don't hold in death.
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Frankz

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #109 on: September 15, 2024, 04:22:51 AM »
Also, on the subject of just straight up cheating and concerns. What if the person actually is just carrying a body around and not actively planting it? Wouldn't this help combat that problem?

MAB77

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2024, 07:54:04 AM »
So this simple implementation of body checks now needs to readdress and redesign how inventory and bags are handled. That is a much bigger undertaking and a much bigger ask. Personally, I don't see it worth completely overhauling how bags are designed just so that we can tell if someone is carrying a corpse.

That's getting off-topic but I would totally overhaul how it works if not for the fact we're nearly 2 decades too late to do that.

I would have it that bags in themselves would no longer be containers, but would instead grant the weight reduction bonus to the whole of your inventory. That way characters would only ever carry a single bag, the best one they can find. That would increase server performance, and force players to sell or let go more of their stuff instead of hoarding them.

Rest soundly though, that will never happen. Too many systems, notably crafting, that would need overhauling. (Would also kill the Red Vardo's gold printing machine, so that'd be an extra plus right? :mrgreen:)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 07:55:41 AM by MAB77 »
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Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #111 on: September 15, 2024, 11:56:50 AM »
>Ralph confronts Ted. Claims he had a friend in stealth see him pick up Ted's body so he knows (even though he truly wouldn't).

Sounds like meta gaming is already involved. Compare this to what? Ted's friend kills you then gives Ted your body and now you can never know who did it? Or is Ted's friend apparently disguised? How is the person not just OOCly reading Ted's friends name in the combat log, then claiming the same stealther friend who never existed witnessed the assassination and the same thing takes place?

Ralph will just get his homie Alan to claim he was there when he wasn't. Ralph, You, and Alan are all part of a clique of buddies on the server and each of them have each others back even if it comes at the expense of other players.

While Ted is frustrated his bounty collection didn't work out somewhere in a far off Discord server "lol we got u fam don't worry we won't let someone like Ted kill you" "Hahahaha stupid Ted" "Let's hide Ted in mostly un-navigated parts of Sithicus! lmao" and of course their buddy Steve checks in "Ted is a jerk rofl"

It's not so much that it would cause metagaming but better facilitate it.

I would have it that bags in themselves would no longer be containers, but would instead grant the weight reduction bonus to the whole of your inventory. That way characters would only ever carry a single bag, the best one they can find. That would increase server performance, and force players to sell or let go more of their stuff instead of hoarding them.

Rest soundly though, that will never happen. Too many systems, notably crafting, that would need overhauling. (Would also kill the Red Vardo's gold printing machine, so that'd be an extra plus right? :mrgreen:)

Better if things are not that way. Unless the Claim Check system was more advanced like instead of getting  a piece of paper as big as the item you are carrying you got a 1x1 receipt that said had the title, description and stats of the item on the claim check that you turn in and get a real item.

No bags would make merchanting rather difficult.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2024, 07:04:41 AM »
You could approach them and ask them what happened, and probably 99% of the time you will get the response that someone died while out adventuring.

I mean... that is RP. Even if it's true that in 99% of cases this lie holds even in the case of actual PvP, it's 1% more than the current system!

And I think yours is possibly a pessimistic outlook, I think that in some cases when potential clues are witnessed, it would add some depth to investigative RP.

Okay, but then what? If they wont tell you whose body it is, or why they are carrying it, can you interact with this further? If you demand they drop the corpse because they wont offer you an explanation, is that grounds to attack them?

No for the same reason why you can't just up and do bandit RP. "Stand and deliver 1000 gold or your life". I'm pretty sure people carrying corpses in middle ages settings is kind of normal anyway?

I mean I drove past a hearse today on my way to Chinese food, I didn't roll up to the guy driving it and then roll my window down and shout "HEY! WHAT HAPPENED!? WHOSE THAT?"

I'm pretty sure you can do Bandit RP and rob someone, but there's a fine line between, "I'm mugging you for 1k," and, "I'm going to repeatedly harass you, and mug you for 1k," the latter bending into griefing. Technically, the opt-out of the PvP is paying the thug, and there's nothing illegal about antagonism.

Wilkins1952

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2024, 07:37:35 AM »
You could approach them and ask them what happened, and probably 99% of the time you will get the response that someone died while out adventuring.

I mean... that is RP. Even if it's true that in 99% of cases this lie holds even in the case of actual PvP, it's 1% more than the current system!

And I think yours is possibly a pessimistic outlook, I think that in some cases when potential clues are witnessed, it would add some depth to investigative RP.

Okay, but then what? If they wont tell you whose body it is, or why they are carrying it, can you interact with this further? If you demand they drop the corpse because they wont offer you an explanation, is that grounds to attack them?

No for the same reason why you can't just up and do bandit RP. "Stand and deliver 1000 gold or your life". I'm pretty sure people carrying corpses in middle ages settings is kind of normal anyway?

I mean I drove past a hearse today on my way to Chinese food, I didn't roll up to the guy driving it and then roll my window down and shout "HEY! WHAT HAPPENED!? WHOSE THAT?"

I'm pretty sure you can do Bandit RP and rob someone, but there's a fine line between, "I'm mugging you for 1k," and, "I'm going to repeatedly harass you, and mug you for 1k," the latter bending into griefing. Technically, the opt-out of the PvP is paying the thug, and there's nothing illegal about antagonism.

EO's comment on this explicitly states this is not allowed.

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2024, 11:34:50 AM »
We're getting a bit off topic here, but there are ways to do banditry RP that has some teeth to it.

Just popping out of invis and demanding money is going to go poorly. They are more than welcome to just walk past you, walk away. Instead, I recommend considering setting up a toll at a narrow crossing, either a corridor or a bridge. Make it clear what's ahead, and if they try to avoid paying the toll they are trespassing and there are going to be consequences for such.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2024, 11:49:39 AM »
We're getting a bit off topic here, but there are ways to do banditry RP that has some teeth to it.

Just popping out of invis and demanding money is going to go poorly. They are more than welcome to just walk past you, walk away. Instead, I recommend considering setting up a toll at a narrow crossing, either a corridor or a bridge. Make it clear what's ahead, and if they try to avoid paying the toll they are trespassing and there are going to be consequences for such.
Just seconding this as a person who was a part of a Bandit group in an NCE and did this exact thing. Had a lot of really good and some really funny interactions with people, very rarely was any serious PvP involved and when it was we just took the toll and sent them on their way.



BraveSirRobin

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Re: Body carrying indicator
« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2024, 07:12:51 PM »
We're getting a bit off topic here, but there are ways to do banditry RP that has some teeth to it.

Just popping out of invis and demanding money is going to go poorly. They are more than welcome to just walk past you, walk away. Instead, I recommend considering setting up a toll at a narrow crossing, either a corridor or a bridge. Make it clear what's ahead, and if they try to avoid paying the toll they are trespassing and there are going to be consequences for such.
Just seconding this as a person who was a part of a Bandit group in an NCE and did this exact thing. Had a lot of really good and some really funny interactions with people, very rarely was any serious PvP involved and when it was we just took the toll and sent them on their way.

This was what I was referring to. Random gold or death scenarios is a bit trolly, but if there's substance behind the roleplay, you can do it, is what I was getting at. But yes, we're off-topic.