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Author Topic: Combat Style Diversity and The Server  (Read 2332 times)

EarlofEtheria

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2024, 06:16:53 PM »
As for the above, dual-wielding doesn't need int?

Ah my mistake, mixing them up with the One-Handed Dueling line. Just dexterity, and certainly good points on strength two weapon use, but you can achieve 18 STR 18 DEX depending on your race/template, certainly it is a prohibitive effort for many races.

I'd say we need to throw a bone to Daggers. They're not small weapons, they're TINY. Tiny means medium weapons are when Improved Disarm kicks in. Absolutely tragic for theme and roleplay everywhere.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 06:28:51 PM by EarlofEtheria »

Nularia

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2024, 01:22:57 AM »
I'm confused is Dual Wielding really that weird of a spot?

I have a Pure Fighter Dex Dual Weider that feels like she does really good work especially when she has an arcanist with her. Damage is a little on the lower end but it doesn't feel that bad.

Fumbles

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2024, 05:16:50 AM »
I'm confused is Dual Wielding really that weird of a spot?

I have a Pure Fighter Dex Dual Weider that feels like she does really good work especially when she has an arcanist with her. Damage is a little on the lower end but it doesn't feel that bad.
Arcane wards are absolutely busted broken. They can be used to be buff a character who doesn't even have the best base combat stats to do dungeons designed for much higher levels. So yeah things are gonna be easy if you have a pocket wizard. But regardless, massive investment for underwhelming results is a clear indicator that something is underpowered.

Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2024, 04:48:45 PM »
I'm confused is Dual Wielding really that weird of a spot?

I have a Pure Fighter Dex Dual Weider that feels like she does really good work especially when she has an arcanist with her. Damage is a little on the lower end but it doesn't feel that bad.

It kinda is yes. To get the most out of dual wielding you'll want 6-7 feats which is quite a bit. For a fighter this limitation isn't TOO bad due to the sheer amount of feats they get.

For barbarian it is invasive.

Ranger deals with it the best (As long as you are in light armor) and the Automatic Combat Style covers 3/6 feats for the ranger which is pretty darn good.

Other classes like Hexblade will find dual wielding to be taxing and invasive feat wise for very little pay off.

Greater Two Weapon Defense has a tremendous pre-requisite... 19+ DEX in addition to BAB +11 and of course the previous feat. BAB really isn't a trouble but 19+ DEX is quite an investment on a PC even when going Ranger. A character isn't even likely to achieve 19+ DEX by 11 unless they are an elf, halfling, or they maxed out DEX at char creation or both.

Dual wielding is optimal when there is a specific effect the wielder is going for that benefit from more attacks/opportunities: Sneak Attack, Critical Hits, Poisons, Spells that grant On Hit Damage or Effects, and so on.

This is why one of the thing I suggested was feats or effects for longer lasting or multi hit poison effects. Two-Weapon Fighting characters could fish their fortitude save. Blade Weave sees effective use with TWF as well.

GiganticHowlslime

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2024, 06:53:17 PM »
I'm confused is Dual Wielding really that weird of a spot?

I have a Pure Fighter Dex Dual Weider that feels like she does really good work especially when she has an arcanist with her. Damage is a little on the lower end but it doesn't feel that bad.

It kinda is yes. To get the most out of dual wielding you'll want 6-7 feats which is quite a bit. For a fighter this limitation isn't TOO bad due to the sheer amount of feats they get.

For barbarian it is invasive.

Ranger deals with it the best (As long as you are in light armor) and the Automatic Combat Style covers 3/6 feats for the ranger which is pretty darn good.

Other classes like Hexblade will find dual wielding to be taxing and invasive feat wise for very little pay off.

Greater Two Weapon Defense has a tremendous pre-requisite... 19+ DEX in addition to BAB +11 and of course the previous feat. BAB really isn't a trouble but 19+ DEX is quite an investment on a PC even when going Ranger. A character isn't even likely to achieve 19+ DEX by 11 unless they are an elf, halfling, or they maxed out DEX at char creation or both.

Dual wielding is optimal when there is a specific effect the wielder is going for that benefit from more attacks/opportunities: Sneak Attack, Critical Hits, Poisons, Spells that grant On Hit Damage or Effects, and so on.

This is why one of the thing I suggested was feats or effects for longer lasting or multi hit poison effects. Two-Weapon Fighting characters could fish their fortitude save. Blade Weave sees effective use with TWF as well.

I think there's an argument to be made that too much stock is put in getting 19 Dex for dual-wielders. 15 Dex allows access to four feats - Ambi, TWF, ITWF, and TWD. All you're achieving by pushing up to 19 Dex is the opportunity to spend 2 more feats for 1 more AC each.

If you consider that most Barbarians and Fighters usually want 14 Dex already anyway, then 15 Dex doesn't actually look like a huge investment. You can do this, and still be a Strength-based Fighter or Barbarian, and now be swinging with two more high-AB attacks with big Strength modifier bonuses.

It puts your AC slightly above what a 2H wielder gets, and might be nearly doubling your damage (and you're good to use Dual weapons, which benefit from only needing one buff, and getting the big crafted weapon damage bonus.)

Strangely, the only class for which this isn't a good idea is... Ranger.  The class that's supposed to be the TWF guy. They really need a way to access 2WD without the requirement to provide a reason to play TWF. There is argument for them being able to ignore Dex completely and max Str, but they can't use Medium or Heavy armour whilst RangerTWFing, so... It kind of all falls apart as a build path. If you could at least get TWD, that'd mean a low-Dex Ranger could sort-of keep up on their AC with Fighters that stop at 15 Dex too.

Even if they got that - They don't benefit from Rage or Focus/Specialisation ways to boost their damage bonuses, so they'd probably go from 'outright bad' to 'acceptable'.
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Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2024, 11:57:27 PM »
I think there's an argument to be made that too much stock is put in getting 19 Dex for dual-wielders. 15 Dex allows access to four feats - Ambi, TWF, ITWF, and TWD. All you're achieving by pushing up to 19 Dex is the opportunity to spend 2 more feats for 1 more AC each.

If you consider that most Barbarians and Fighters usually want 14 Dex already anyway, then 15 Dex doesn't actually look like a huge investment. You can do this, and still be a Strength-based Fighter or Barbarian, and now be swinging with two more high-AB attacks with big Strength modifier bonuses.

I would say when you start putting 15 into an ability score it becomes a primary investment. For the point buy system everything up to 14 is 1 : 1. 14 is the soft cap and anything after 14 starts becoming a heavier investment. On it's own 14 is a very significant investment. I think a lot Barbarians will generally skip such and just take the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat and then keeping your investment as low as possible.

Strangely, the only class for which this isn't a good idea is... Ranger.  The class that's supposed to be the TWF guy. They really need a way to access 2WD without the requirement to provide a reason to play TWF. There is argument for them being able to ignore Dex completely and max Str, but they can't use Medium or Heavy armour whilst RangerTWFing, so... It kind of all falls apart as a build path. If you could at least get TWD, that'd mean a low-Dex Ranger could sort-of keep up on their AC with Fighters that stop at 15 Dex too.

Even if they got that - They don't benefit from Rage or Focus/Specialisation ways to boost their damage bonuses, so they'd probably go from 'outright bad' to 'acceptable'.

On an RP level they really aren't supposed to be the 'TWF guy' which is why I argue they should have access to more potential combat styles like in P&P, but I agree with what you are saying and yes

I wonder how much can actually be done with ranger. I hope if anything comes from this thread that one of them is at the very least the addition of TWD feats to the Ranger's dual weapon fighting bonuses, or being able to choose a combat style.

Nularia

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2024, 04:22:11 AM »
I suppose my Fighter has a slight advantage in the fact she is a Draconic Ancestry Moon Elf. Which really helps out with the stat requirements..

Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2024, 11:20:41 PM »
I suppose my Fighter has a slight advantage in the fact she is a Draconic Ancestry Moon Elf. Which really helps out with the stat requirements..

Oh yeah that's a tremendous help considering the vast ability score boosts. Moon Elf will mitigate the amount of points you need to purchase necessary stats, and Draconic Heritage will cover for everything else.

Economically it's a huge advantdge. Your character gets +STR, +DEX, +CON, +CHA. Everything a fighter needs.

Nularia

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2024, 12:32:04 AM »
It's neutral con, due to moon elves malus, but yeah. It made squeezing the things in really nicely. I really like my Dual Wielding fighter.

And the lack of a 45 LBS (Or even like 25ish on a "light" tower shield) is massive for QoL. The downside being low damage feels like it balances out the high attack rate and good AC. That might also be on me as I've had my elf favor weilding two shortswords though. Due to being under the impression I need both weapons to be light to keep my AB malus low? I can't imagine people dual wielding effectively with non-light weapons.. unless there's something I just missed.

Honestly I always felt like 2h Weapons were Over Represented, due to how much AC you could get while maintaining full damage. Felt like everyone I saw for a while was a two-handed weapon wielder in some variety. But I am prone to taking several months off at a time so things might have shifted.

You get Full AB because your only wielding one weapon, better than average damage. 2h Weapons generally had more potent effects as well, and you could reach a "decent" ac bonus even in full plate with improved parry. Felt like you gained way more than you lost.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2024, 12:37:23 AM by Nularia »

Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2024, 01:55:31 AM »
It's neutral con, due to moon elves malus, but yeah. It made squeezing the things in really nicely. I really like my Dual Wielding fighter.

And the lack of a 45 LBS (Or even like 25ish on a "light" tower shield) is massive for QoL. The downside being low damage feels like it balances out the high attack rate and good AC. That might also be on me as I've had my elf favor weilding two shortswords though. Due to being under the impression I need both weapons to be light to keep my AB malus low? I can't imagine people dual wielding effectively with non-light weapons.. unless there's something I just missed.

The thing about the weight is; players who value the shield will make it work. It's not a question of "Do I want to this trade off or the other" it's "I need to make a plan to manage this" which... I'll be honest does not require too much planning at all in the end. SaB characters unless they are using the small buckler will generally build STR and so managing the carry weight is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Honestly I always felt like 2h Weapons were Over Represented, due to how much AC you could get while maintaining full damage. Felt like everyone I saw for a while was a two-handed weapon wielder in some variety. But I am prone to taking several months off at a time so things might have shifted.

Well 2H isn't sub-optimal or necessarily weak by any means. It's not the BEST option but it's certainly an option, and 2H has one of the strongest 'Rule of Cool' arguments. Guts from Berserk? Cloud Strife from FF7? etc. You'll see a lot of 2H users on that merit alone.

It maxes out at +4 if you dedicate equipment to Parry which makes it kind of unfortunate, and you really do need about 32 STR or so to really make the Damage considerable vs the +3 AC + Saving Throws + Added bonuses. I know the 45 lbs is a thing... but at the same time? It's less of a "Oh no 45lbs is impacting my decision" and more of a "I'm going to figure out how to make the 45lbs work."

I know I will be for my SaB fighter.

You get Full AB because your only wielding one weapon, better than average damage. 2h Weapons generally had more potent effects as well, and you could reach a "decent" ac bonus even in full plate with improved parry. Felt like you gained way more than you lost.

By comparison to SaB the loss of +3 AC and added benefits for more damage is... it's just not super worth it. Options to make it stand out more wouldn't be bad thing, especially since characters are going to have to compete against their ACP for their parry bonus. Fullplate provides a -8 ACP which will apply to Parry. Not only does this reduce the maximum AC rank it can achieve but also you the player are going to have to work against that penalty.

Not only are you going to need the necessary skill amount to reach your +4 Cap, you're also going to need to overcome the -8. My two handed fighter had to rely on Parry oriented crafted gear which; isn't terrible. It's not optimal though and otherwise will be able to invest in much superior equipment.

2 Handed isn't a major concern as far as the thread is aware, although I would say a little nudge for them wouldn't be bad. My suggestion was ultimately a feat that allowed two handed users to subtract AC instead of AB for power attack and instead apply damage. Iirc someone suggested the damage bonus also be doubled.

In terms of economy AC is far more valuable than Damage on NWN. A good defense is usually leagues better than a great offense; there is of course circumstances and exceptions but generally speaking and I've noticed other players that include expertise in their build tend to get it early and it really helps in that early game tremendous and still finds use in the later game whereas Power Attack I normally don't invest in. If my character acquires it somehow or does invest in it; I will usually use it for mining or in dungeons and situations where enemy AC is low and my AB is high.

 I think everyone here has mainly identified big questions with TWF, and 1H (No off hand), and Ranger's role with Melee combat.

Mathematically speaking however and Economically speaking you don't gain a lot more than what you lose; I'd say 2H finish more quickly than SaB users but in the long run, they do lose out. Two-Weapon Fighting is kind of in a similar boat economically to SaB Where they are enchanting an extra item in their build.

It generally does not feel like it's worth it 6 Feat set up and very demanding stat requirements, Enchanting two-weapons rather than one is unfortunate as well. Unlike SaB where you are enchanting a companion item and getting extra bonuses when you enchant a weapon you are just getting the weapon enchantments.

Double-Weapons would you'd think see great use then; the problem is it adds a 7th feat to the collection your character needs and since the double-weapons are not finessable you find yourself stuck putting points into DEX for your TWD feats. It would be beneficial to build STR for a Double-weapon build but it's not very feasible on the server.

Adding TWD to the Ranger TWF Combat Style I think would eliminate this problem entirely. As characters would then be able to comfortably build for STR while not needing to make such massive investments into a stat that kind of only offsets short comings.

GiganticHowlslime

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2024, 04:52:33 AM »
Two points -

I was a little mistaken earlier when I said that Barbarians can easy go to 15 Dex - I had some other editions mixed in my brain at the time and thought they lost features in Heavy armour, which isn't true. That said, they're not particularly desperate for any mental stat like Fighter is, so it's still an option - although perhaps not the best, I'd say it's got arguments to take. Fighters still can, but honestly Combat Focus eats up as many feats as Fighters gain these days, so fitting 4 more in isn't as easy as it sounds.

Second, it's worth noting that Ranger TWF -is- Light Armour dependant. So if you're going an 18 Str/10 Dex ranger to benefit from the requirement-free TWF, your AC is going into the toilet. It's going to be quite likely the lowest AC being sported by any character aspiring to be in melee. Not even TWD would save you. And this sacrifice is -not- rewarded by comparatively impressive DPR - Barbarians or Fighters doing TWF would absolutely make a mockery of your damage, whilst packing more AC and HP.

IF they got the TWD line in their levels, then taking the heaviest Light armour they can find and boosting to around 18 with Cats might keep them at least survivable, but right now a low-Dex Ranger is just a joke.
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Nularia

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2024, 03:33:58 AM »
That's fair, I'm not saying your wrong. I just was mentioning what I was observing when I was playing a few months back. It felt like finding someone whom was Sword and Board was relatively rare, it seemed like -everyone- was a two-handed weapon user. Certainly there was people that used Sword and Shield, but they were vastly outnumbered by people using Halbards or Two-handed Weapons of some kind. (Usually they were clerics too from my experience)

Though I would point out that part of the reason Fighters are harder to do this sort of thing on Ravenloft is that all the combat styles all have somewhat significant attribute investments required and it eats into many of the bonus feats Fighters are usually known for. Ignoring them makes you lose out on a lot of power as a fighter as well so it's not a realistic option if you are planning on going deep fighter. I'm not personally against it it gives fighters some reason to exist past level 4 in most cases, but Needing to have such a wide spread of stats is not usual for Fighters, usually they are allowed to more specialize in combat relevant stats.

GiganticHowlslime

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2024, 04:48:34 AM »
(stuff)

I think you could just about squeak in a 2WF Fighter whilst still taking the Combat Styles and usual feats desires. You'd have very little room for anything else (no Cleave for you) but I think you could just about make it work.
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Maiyannah

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2024, 11:44:08 AM »
That's fair, I'm not saying your wrong. I just was mentioning what I was observing when I was playing a few months back. It felt like finding someone whom was Sword and Board was relatively rare, it seemed like -everyone- was a two-handed weapon user.

*peers suspiciously at the entire church of people going sword & board*
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Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2024, 05:10:25 PM »
That's fair, I'm not saying your wrong. I just was mentioning what I was observing when I was playing a few months back. It felt like finding someone whom was Sword and Board was relatively rare, it seemed like -everyone- was a two-handed weapon user.

It does not surprise me. SaB is optimal, but it also doesn't hit 'Rule of Cool' as hard as two handers in my opinion.

Sword and Shield has... Link and that's pretty much all that comes to mind

2H has Guts, Cloud, Nightmare & Siegfried,

two weapon has... Legolas and Kratos(?)

but uh... let's not forget the Chadimus:



I think you could just about squeak in a 2WF Fighter whilst still taking the Combat Styles and usual feats desires. You'd have very little room for anything else (no Cleave for you) but I think you could just about make it work.

Oh you certainly could the question in the end is what you lose as a result of doing so. While it's easy to say "yeah sure they have feats, they can pay for it". The question is more what are others getting in place of those 6 feats and how worth it is it actually by comparisson. WHich really is the heart of the discussion is comparing and suggesting value to different weapon styles.

I really think double-weapons need more support overall, TWF I think we've talked to death right now but could maybe use a little nudge to make the investment more worth it and of course adding TWD to the Ranger combat style, two handed I've found is fine but could use a little more pay off

Single weapon can have some interesting niches and...

Can we talk a bit about 'Sword and Shot'? One of the cool and unique things about PoTM is the inclusion of fire arms. A sword in one hand and a loaded pistol in the other I think should see some parry/AC support of some kind.

The benefit of doing this is I suppose is that enemies can't really run away and that's pretty much it; of course this is no guarantee and the feat investment for the firearms is rightfully a bit hefty. I wouldn't be opposed to adding more heft if it meant bonuses for sword + gun styling of some kind.

Frankz

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2024, 05:27:47 PM »
Having personally used sword and shot. As long as the parry bonus is applied from mainhand seems viable. Less so then tower shield but making everything the same is also dull.

Fumbles

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2024, 05:52:47 PM »
Having personally used sword and shot. As long as the parry bonus is applied from mainhand seems viable. Less so then tower shield but making everything the same is also dull.
Speaking of guns, muskets should have some kind of improvement so that they are viable instead of all gun users going dual pistols.

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2024, 06:05:28 PM »
Speaking of guns, muskets should have some kind of improvement so that they are viable instead of all gun users going dual pistols.

We will likely be making some improvement to muskets as they fall pretty far behind. What exactly those changes are hasn't been hammered down, but we do feel they need to be improved.  Stay tuned.

Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2024, 06:58:47 PM »
Having personally used sword and shot. As long as the parry bonus is applied from mainhand seems viable. Less so then tower shield but making everything the same is also dull.

'Making things the same' is not the same thing as trying to make matching viability. They won't ever be the same simply based on the inherent facts of it all. A two handed sword is not a tower shield, a second weapon in the off hand isn't a single one held in two hands etc.

The goal here mainly is to bring attention to and discuss different styles and how they lag behind, possible/desired solutions, and opinions. The trade off will always be You lose X but gain Y.

I'm just encouraging development look into making Option: A on par with option Z even if they are entirely different weapons. It helps encourage a wider and broader range of characters and concepts since people do generally want to be mechanically viable.

Before that can of worms even opens up, Yes. Typically speaking a player wants a PC that is functional for all kinds of content. In mine and many other players experiences as a tabletop Dungeon Master it has always been more fun when everyone in the party has a chance to hold the spotlight; so it can be difficult and unfun if there is a player who can't really stand in that spotlight. for whatever reason.

It's not at all bad or boring to have options work well but having their own unique ups and downs.

As for pistol and shot... your trade off is receiving any possible AC boosts at all in comparison to another class. So against a tower shield for example... your Sword and Pistolereo is down about 6 AC which is ROUGH especially since your character does plan to melee. It uses the rules of TWF so you're going to have to get the TWF feats but no TWD feats and your off hand is kind of stuck being the 1d3 bludgeon pistol.

The trade off is that you always have a ranged weapon on hand. Okay cool. This isn't incredibly useful in PVE as enemies that engage you in melee will usually stay there. SOMETIMES they will run and then you could use the pistol as a comfortable means to attack without chasing it down but it does feel like a lot of sacrifice just to accomplish a satisfying kill on cowardly monsters.

In PVP I'd say too much AC is sacrificed for it to be super considerable in its niche. Shooting into melee iirc will always provoke AoO. I really don't see a reason why this shouldn't get support.

We will likely be making some improvement to muskets as they fall pretty far behind. What exactly those changes are hasn't been hammered down, but we do feel they need to be improved.  Stay tuned.

That's good to hear. I would say muskets should play into the benefit of the fact that they have a bayonet at the end of them. This kind of makes them mechanically independent of Pistols.

Pistol ideally would be for characters who either want to focus entirely on the ranged combat aspect of firearms, or want to enjoy the comfort of having access to a ranged weapon  on hand at any time while they are fighting with a sword.

Muskets on the other hand would be abotu a combination of styles leaning heavily into melee combat while also being an opportunity to play with ranged combat.

Maybe a feat geared towards musket use that increases movement speed, attack and damage for a brief amount of time after landing a successful hit with the ranged weapon portion of the musket? Kind of encouraging players to use the musket as an opener before charging in.

Could honestly be the beginning of 'Charging' and 'bull rush' feats on the server. Players would perform a specific action or simply activate a number of times per day to enable an increased movement speed, attack, and damage at the cost of extra attacks in their round. I don't know sounds like it'd be a bit of hell to script but would be really neat for not just musket play but other weapons as well.

GiganticHowlslime

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2024, 05:35:31 AM »
but uh... let's not forget the Chadimus:

I think personally that dual-weapons (as in, Double Sword et al) should be niche to the point of rarity. They're certainly usable by a dual-wield, 15-Dex fighter, as they benefit in a few ways over TWF if you're not needing Finesse. Barbarians could pull one off, even if it's not their best option. And, if Str rangers do become a thing and are blessed with TWD, it becomes a viable option for them too.

Thing is, if they become generally good, they'll be a lot more common, and at the end of the day they are a pretty silly weapon. It should be very rare to see one in action, and you should have about twenty people with more realistic weaponry before you see someone Maulin' it.
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Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2024, 01:17:44 PM »
I think personally that dual-weapons (as in, Double Sword et al) should be niche to the point of rarity. They're certainly usable by a dual-wield, 15-Dex fighter, as they benefit in a few ways over TWF if you're not needing Finesse. Barbarians could pull one off, even if it's not their best option. And, if Str rangers do become a thing and are blessed with TWD, it becomes a viable option for them too.

Thing is, if they become generally good, they'll be a lot more common, and at the end of the day they are a pretty silly weapon. It should be very rare to see one in action, and you should have about twenty people with more realistic weaponry before you see someone Maulin' it.

From a design perspective, Player Characters (to some end) are supposed to be the 'exception'. I don't think making it more accessible will necessarily mean we'll see a boom of it and I would say the fun of having the option should be more at the forefront. As a weapon it's... not that good anyway?

Basically you're getting all the benefits of TWF except; harder to disarm, and 1 item to enchant instead of 2.

These weapons are so wildly unique anyway that I just don't see them overtaking the game world by storm. It's a tough one to build for though... you need the 19 DEX to complete the TWD track.

You need STR for Attack and Damage they are non-finessable.

The exotic nature of the weapon should already be represented by the 'Exotic Weapon Proficiency' feat. At least for some of these. It would be actually really nice to see Quarterstaff made into a double weapon or at least the option to equip as a double weapon.


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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2024, 04:53:23 PM »

Basically you're getting all the benefits of TWF except; harder to disarm, and 1 item to enchant instead of 2.


They also have a better base damage die so they are better to enchant than dual light weapons. Would be a straight upgrade if it wasn't for the fact that they don't work with Weapon Finesse. Don't think they will ever be common unless there are serious TWF buffs given.

GiganticHowlslime

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2024, 05:44:56 PM »

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Oh yeah, I think they could do with a benefit - I will once again underline though, they don't need 19 Dex. You can dual-wield quite happily, with better AC than a 2H user, with only 15. You only need 19 Dex if you want to have AC almost as high as sword-and-board. 15 is much more achievable. Just because the feat is there doesn't mean you need to get it. I'd go so far as to say that going to 19 Dex is -only- a good idea if you're intending to play a finesse, on-hit style attacker, like a Rogue multiclass.
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Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)

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Re: Combat Style Diversity and The Server
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2024, 05:57:30 PM »
Just because the feat is there doesn't mean you need to get it.

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