Wizard's Spellbooks

[MAB77]

Down the road, I think what is truly missing has nothing to do with sorcerers at all, but the #1 balancing feature of wizards in P&P: the possibility to lose one's spellbook. That's really what is supposed to be the main distinction between the two classes.

I'd give all wizards a spellbook item.
- The book is required to be in their possession to rest and memorize spells.
- Each spellbook is ciphered and works only for the true owner.
- Holding the spellbook in battle could give them some advantage (spellcraft bonus?) but exposes them to the risk of being disarmed and losing the book.
- The book could be confiscated by others in RP.
- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.
- No spell knowledge is lost if a book gets destroyed, they just can't memorize spells again until the book is recreated.

When a book is destroyed.
- The player must return to one of three places where a spellbook could be recreated: Balinok's Mage Tower, Université of Port-à-Lucine, The Red Academy.
- The player pays an NPC to gather the components required to recreate the book.
- The cost and time increases based on a character's level. Going from cheap and almost instantaneous at lowest levels to prohibitive and a 2-3 days delay for highest levels.
- A player is not required to stay on site as the NPC "gathers" the components.
- Upon getting the components, the player activates a scribing desk and the spellbook is recreated on a successful spellcraft check.

[hobbknacass]

Down the road, I think what is truly missing has nothing to do with sorcerers at all, but the #1 balancing feature of wizards in P&P: the possibility to lose one's spellbook.

I'd give all wizards a spellbook item.
- The book is required to be in their possession to rest and memorize spells.
- Each spellbook is ciphered and works only for the true owner.
- Holding the spellbook in battle could give them some advantage (spellcraft bonus?) but exposes them to the risk of being disarmed and losing the book.
- The book could be confiscated by others in RP.
- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.
- No spell knowledge is lost if a book get destroyed, they just can't memorize spells again until the book is recreated.

When a book is destroyed.
- The player must return to one of three places where a spellbook could be recreated: Balinok's Mage Tower, Université of Port-à-Lucine, The Red Academy.
- The player pays an NPC to gather the components required to recreate the book.
- The cost and time increases based on a character's level. Going from cheap and almost instantaneous at lowest levels to prohibitive and a 2-3 days delay for highest levels.
- A player is not required to stay on site as the NPC "gathers" the components.
- Upon getting the components, the player activates a scribing desk and the spellbook is recreated.

Truth be told, I think that'd be great. As it stands wizards have no reason to act like they have a spellbook. I think having something like this for each class (except like, fighter), is actually warranted. Like when a paladin, (sorry, I'm INCREDIBLY biased), loses powers, they're simply not a paladin anymore, and it's a big ordeal to get powers back. I think then a wizard, if they lose their spellbook or have it destroyed, should have to embark to fix it/start from scratch in terms of spells they know.

This process would be different from each class of course, but in terms of WIZARDS, that's the way to do it.

[Di Infernis]

Down the road, I think what is truly missing has nothing to do with sorcerers at all, but the #1 balancing feature of wizards in P&P: the possibility to lose one's spellbook.

I'd give all wizards a spellbook item.
- The book is required to be in their possession to rest and memorize spells.
- Each spellbook is ciphered and works only for the true owner.
- Holding the spellbook in battle could give them some advantage (spellcraft bonus?) but exposes them to the risk of being disarmed and losing the book.
- The book could be confiscated by others in RP.
- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.
- No spell knowledge is lost if a book gets destroyed, they just can't memorize spells again until the book is recreated.

When a book is destroyed.
- The player must return to one of three places where a spellbook could be recreated: Balinok's Mage Tower, Université of Port-à-Lucine, The Red Academy.
- The player pays an NPC to gather the components required to recreate the book.
- The cost and time increases based on a character's level. Going from cheap and almost instantaneous at lowest levels to prohibitive and a 2-3 days delay for highest levels.
- A player is not required to stay on site as the NPC "gathers" the components.
- Upon getting the components, the player activates a scribing desk and the spellbook is recreated.

Could we make this answer its own subject? It's not really related to the basic bloodlines proposal and I think it will create a lot of answers on this part alone.

[MAB77]

Done

[HM01]

You've already put wizards in a good spot for a multitude of reasons:

->The implementation of a variety of different classes, Beguiler, Warmage, Hexblade ~ and other alternative classes like Voodan. You've increased the diaspora of potential casting classes beyond the pre-Enhanced Edition days of just the duopoly of Wiz/Sorc. I have to imagine there are far less wizards rolled with the multitude of options since spellcasting and high magic options in general are more diverse.

->The implementation of new crafting materials, offering incredible save vs spells should you find enough of them and proceed to slot them all, even some offering straight up immunity to what was the most complained about spell, with simply 1 ingot in your boots.

-> Nerfs to many spells over a long period of time, Fog stacking, Time Stop, IGMS. These were necessary adjustments, but the psychological impact on some seems to persist.

-> The substantial nerfing to Wizard related drop items.  They have been nerfed into oblivion to the point where they are vendor trash. The robes are awful now, and the rings are more common than most would come to terms with.  Every Wizard related item I have ever seen has been nerfed into absolute commonality.


However, the book is a cool idea.

I see it working a couple of ways, if you really wanted to put Wizards into post World War II Germany status.

-> You implement the physical spellbook that can be taken, but a wizard should have multiple spellbooks. They would be scroll based, and you would buy the scrolls and load them into the book. You don't simply forget spells, you just prepare them. Its the only weakness a Wizard has is their own lack of prep.

-> Spellbooks could be augmented. Theres a weak, traveling spellbook that is meager at best (The most common one of reference), There should be then, enchant-able holdable spellbooks that offer even greater spell slots that could potentially be disarmed.

-> A Wizard can cast spells without their book, if they have the scroll in their inventory.

->You can give your spellbook to someone who has high UMD, and they can cast everything from it if they can read the scroll and pass the UMD check.



Ultimately, big dev task. Fun to think about.
 

[Wilkins1952]

This is a terrible idea in practice. While it sounds neat it more or less puts wizards into the spot of being a never played class. Why bother when you can be rendered entirely useless in literally several dungeons in the game (There are 5 dungeons to my knowledge that have forced underwater areas.) Beyond that a pointless and egregious insult to the players time by having them have to wait up to several IRL days to be able to play their PC again. Shows a complete lack of understanding of respecting ones players time that they invest in the server. Beyond this Forcing PCs to return to a place where spell books can be rewritten ends any and all outcast wizards. Simple as that you have killed an entire class/race combo in one fell swoop. Good job. All those places mentioned respond to OCR.

If this is to go ahead, I expect that in terms of balance the following will also happen to all other classes. "Any enchanted gear if the PC dies or goes underwater is destroyed and lost permenantly with the PC having to spend 2-3 days doing nothing before it is returned."

Wizards have been nerfed time and time again to now with the advent of Warmage/Beguiler/Voodan. Largely one of the weaker caster classes at what they do. This would futher reduce their effectiveness even more.

[MAB77]

Wow aren't you overly dramatic here? So you have to cross underwater terrain and leave your book behind, you can still cast the spells you memorized and use as many scrolls as you'd like. For most places where this applies you can do them without resting in the dungeon already so that's a mild inconvenience often negated by being with a competent party. You'd need the book only to memorize spells. It just calls to adjust your tactics about how you cast your spells. In those very rare places, a sorcerer would have some tactical advantage over a wizard. It's really not a big deal at all.

Wizards remain the king of class and is still overpowered, The presence of spellbooks would not change that. It adds a small degree of difficulty to playing an otherwise extremely easy class to play, but it does not nerf them in any way.

[Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)]

Down the road, I think what is truly missing has nothing to do with sorcerers at all, but the #1 balancing feature of wizards in P&P: the possibility to lose one's spellbook. That's really what is supposed to be the main distinction between the two classes.

I'd give all wizards a spellbook item.
- The book is required to be in their possession to rest and memorize spells.
- Each spellbook is ciphered and works only for the true owner.
- Holding the spellbook in battle could give them some advantage (spellcraft bonus?) but exposes them to the risk of being disarmed and losing the book.
- The book could be confiscated by others in RP.
- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.
- No spell knowledge is lost if a book gets destroyed, they just can't memorize spells again until the book is recreated.

When a book is destroyed.
- The player must return to one of three places where a spellbook could be recreated: Balinok's Mage Tower, Université of Port-à-Lucine, The Red Academy.
- The player pays an NPC to gather the components required to recreate the book.
- The cost and time increases based on a character's level. Going from cheap and almost instantaneous at lowest levels to prohibitive and a 2-3 days delay for highest levels.
- A player is not required to stay on site as the NPC "gathers" the components.
- Upon getting the components, the player activates a scribing desk and the spellbook is recreated on a successful spellcraft check.

This has the Birdman seal of approval. Let's do it brother. 

- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.

Actually, I will say I think it being immediately destroyed at 0 HP is a bit rough. I would before it dropping upon 0 HP, like gold and held weapons armor and gear. But not automatically destroyed.

[Noah]

Create more unique spellbooks with unique effects to follow, and I'm all for it, or give us the ability to enchant our own.

[Lady Duck]

New spellbooks who dis? Important question...can I UMD from it like scrolls?

[Fumbles]

The spell book should drop at 0 HP not destroyed. And you should be able to make a spare. And the ability to learn spells from another wizard's spellbook just like in tabletop. They really need a power nerf not a QOL nerf.  A QOL nerf has a tendency to either not matter or make the class absolutely torture to play but still just as powerful as before. Wizard needs a power nerf. Just nerf a few of the most overpowered Wiz/Sorc spells and make bloodlines for Sorcs provide a spell known for every level, some of which not being on the Wiz/Sorc list, and an extra spell known for each level for Sorc.

[Alcoholic Squirrel (Birdman)]

New spellbooks who dis? Important question...can I UMD from it like scrolls?

Based idea. I like this too.

[HM01]

Thats what I think we were getting at here, a downed wizard, or dead one, or just the focus on the book concept.

I love that its being considered, but we are looking at a wizard buff giving the book away. Its a UMD gris-gris, ya? They are still objectively king, but the nerf weights remain heavy.

The wizard nerf choir doesn't sing so loudly these days imo, theres a reason for that.

[FinalHeaven]

I don't really have a preference one way or the other tbh.  Generally I'm all for anything that distances us from the diehard PnP Holy Texts route and this sort of does that, even if it is meant to replicate a PnP aspect.

In terms of fairness and respecting players' time I really don't think there's much difference between a Wizard having to wait for their spellbook or a player having to wait to be found/respawn from PvP deaths.

[HM01]

Wizards remain the king of class and is still overpowered, The presence of spellbooks would not change that. It adds a small degree of difficulty to playing an otherwise extremely easy class to play, but it does not nerf them in any way.

I fully agree with this, but the spellbook is the meta player based logic of the game and reading the situation while considering future probabilities. The actual out of game player strategy of slotting your spells in the right situation is a metric worth considering. You can be a high level Wizard and be abhorrent with your spell economy and be totally unaware of that fact. Just because you are a Wizard, does not make you a powerful or a good one simply because you are one.

[BluegrassMagician]

- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.

I really like the flavor and RP that this whole suggestion brings, but I agree with others that some of this might be too punishing.

I concur with other suggestions that simply dropping the book at 0HP is a better option.  It also opens up some interesting RP options for people to interact with other people's books.  Additionally, this mechanic would be especially punishing against new and low-level wizards who are the most likely to get KO'd in combat.  A trip to the mage tower is likely beyond them (especially without a book) and seems a bit harsh.  I think it would be interesting to have different levels of book repairs.  For example: 1-5 can be repaired by the Vistani near Vallaki, 6-9 the mountain tower, 10-15 Dementliue, etc. (It doesn't have to be any of these, just examples.)

I'm not against the underwater idea entirely, but I'd like to see it balanced out by adding a rare item or craftable waterproof bag that would protect it.

[Lucadia]

Why are we telling a class they cant  visit  some dungeons for balance?  A class that can cast water breathing. I had to rest three times in one water dungeon.  My pc would be useless after the first rest? I would have pay money to store my spellbook and never pull it out again.

Lets make it to nerf fighters. Your allowed  a hundred swings per level before you run out gas and  need a rest.

[bloodless]

Most of the suggestions are fine, interesting even, but if you intend to go through with this

- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, [...]

Then you damn well better make holding that thing actually worth it. I'm talking something to the tune of extra spell slots from top to bottom, not a meager skill points bonus. Wizard has been continually nerfed over and over again, and especially with regards to their gear. Now introducing something which kneecaps you at the first hint of trouble is a bridge too far, not without ample compensation. I'd just forget about the underwater part altogether, to he honest. The book is magical and enchanted, it can stand a high IPX factor. Not only would random environmental factors like that preclude several dungeons but also be a massive hindrance in dm events. I've personally been to the bottom of the ocean before, and many others have dived the lake and sank in the seas. Imagine if that meant any weapons in your inventory automatically floated away never to be retrieved as a martial, that would be absurd.

[Madame Trousers Son]

The suggestion that a Wizard can be forced to run to the wizard tower and sit on the bench for 2-3 days because they went into an underwater area or fell to 0 HP sounds genuinely hostile to me and enabling of griefing. For any other class, if I wanted to interfere with them at that level I'd have to corpse hide them and have implicit DM approval.

[Mordalynne]

As a Wizard, I would love this idea if we are also considering bringing in item degradation for armour and weapons so that you have to sharpen and maintain them...

Because I seem to remember that when the suggestion was made for actually having to sharpen a sword or have it lose effectiveness over time, or maintaining armour through using a player character tradesman like a blacksmith, people thought it was "too bureaucractic" and "micro-managing" in a fantasy setting. Having spellbooks now be ruined from passing through water areas of dungeons and destroyed when you are downed sounds like unnecessary penalties directed to one class but absent from everyone else. Then having to not be able to do anything (game content) for a period of time whilst it's "repaired"....

If people want to RP that their spellbook is destroyed then that should be good enough, right?

[SamDemonium]

Down the road, I think what is truly missing has nothing to do with sorcerers at all, but the #1 balancing feature of wizards in P&P: the possibility to lose one's spellbook. That's really what is supposed to be the main distinction between the two classes.

I'd give all wizards a spellbook item.
- The book is required to be in their possession to rest and memorize spells.
- Each spellbook is ciphered and works only for the true owner.
- Holding the spellbook in battle could give them some advantage (spellcraft bonus?) but exposes them to the risk of being disarmed and losing the book.
- The book could be confiscated by others in RP.
- A book is otherwise destroyed if the PC falls to 0 HP, enters an underwater area with it, or is burnt in a campfire.
- No spell knowledge is lost if a book gets destroyed, they just can't memorize spells again until the book is recreated.

When a book is destroyed.
- The player must return to one of three places where a spellbook could be recreated: Balinok's Mage Tower, Université of Port-à-Lucine, The Red Academy.
- The player pays an NPC to gather the components required to recreate the book.
- The cost and time increases based on a character's level. Going from cheap and almost instantaneous at lowest levels to prohibitive and a 2-3 days delay for highest levels.
- A player is not required to stay on site as the NPC "gathers" the components.
- Upon getting the components, the player activates a scribing desk and the spellbook is recreated on a successful spellcraft check.

+1

I’m in favour of this. It reinforces the roleplay nature of a wizard which can often be forgotten about at times. I don’t think I recall consistent encounters with wizards where their spellbook has been brought up in roleplay and I am guilty of this myself having played one, especially as it’s meant to be the main crux of their power.

And if we’re looking at this from a balance perspective (as let’s be frank, wizard is still the strongest caster class) it would also let other caster types shine during any inconvenience a wizard may encounter with their spellbook, such as waiting on a replacement or in underwater areas.

[MAB77]

Why are we telling a class they cant  visit  some dungeons for balance?  A class that can cast water breathing. I had to rest three times in one water dungeon.  My pc would be useless after the first rest? I would have pay money to store my spellbook and never pull it out again.

Lets make it to nerf fighters. Your allowed  a hundred swings per level before you run out gas and  need a rest.

Under no circumstances would it prevent wizards to visit anywhere. It is actually a very good thing in my book that in some dungeons wizards would have to pace their spellcasting in certain places. This helps makes the required tactics different for different dungeons. But I take note that options to protect one's spellbook would be liked.

Dropping the book instead of losing it when dropped at 0 hp sounds fair.

And yes adjustments to fighter's combat feats are being discussed already.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Here are three practical problems with the suggestion as laid out:

(1) In PNP, losing your spellbook prevents you from memorising a new spell load out. It doesn't simply stop you from being able to rest and re-memorise your current spell selection. Why deviate from this? There have been plenty of side-nerfs and adjustments to the meta of late. Going over and above PNP into the territory of custom nerfs is not necessary and is unfair. There is no need to break PNP rules, turning a Wizard into a severely sub-par Sorceror is consequence enough for losing the spellbook.

(2) a) The idea of having to go to a wizard tower and spend days to re-scribe your spellbook is disrespectful of players' time. As a Gendarme/Garda player, these days we take serious consideration to the idea of sticking someone in a jail cell for 2-3 days because we're aware that players come here to have fun and play their character, not to languish around like a peasant.

 b) Moreover the suggestion is not lore-accurate within the context that PotM has already created. A wizard is supposed to be able to make their grimoire and spellbook copies themselves. They don't need the help of a wizard tower to do it, and they can do it ahead of time. A wizard should be able to re-scribe their spell book themselves from any safe area. Yes, any at all. Any suggestion that this should take days of OOC time is akin to the suggestion that rest periods should take 8 hours IRL: we're here to play a game, not grind out a job.

(3) a) Having spell books automatically get destroyed in water ignores the fact that water-proof spellbooks exist. Frankly, why is this even a suggestion? It just sounds like an arbitrary restriction designed to punish people in the name of so-called "balance". Are we going to start destroying all papers that go into water? Are we going to make non-gilded metal rust and clothing & leather armour rot? No?

b) Having spellbooks automatically destroyed at 0 HP is a non-starter. Destroying a wizard's spellbook should be a deliberate choice, not an automatic anti-class restriction because lulz.

c) Frankly even the suggestion that the spellbook be automatically dropped at 0 HP should be handled with serious consideration for its PvP impact rather than casually allowed. Again, if it's any other class, the suggestion that someone could be interfered with for days would be a PvP escalation equivalent to corpse-hiding.


Why can't wizards make back-up spellbooks? Because they're already restricted by the inability to have a permanent home where they can store them.

Is the implementation of scroll-scribing going to be brought back? That's part of "Spellbook RP" too, it's rather dismaying and telling that this is only being brought up as a restriction and not the boon it ought to be.

[Lucadia]

3 rests is already pacing. That over an hour your playing. 

Just no. Why do wizards need to pace when sorcs are faster at clearing content?

Why are you disabling a class for going underwater.  They cant- memorize-new spells if they go underwater. That biggest hogwash Iv heard.

Seriously if Im not required have it in hand, it going in bank. I rather lose what ever bonus you think is worth  the risk  for  not playing days at a time.

Its a sorry guys, dungeon run over, I took a critical hit and now have to wait 3 days.

[Zyemeth]

It's rare enough to find wizards these days. Miss me with most of these suggestions.