Author Topic: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread  (Read 4882 times)

Darkthrasher

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2024, 10:41:14 PM »
Would it be possible to introduce class features that interact with spells with certain descriptors? Say, for anything with a Fire descriptor, +2 dc, stacking with spell foci? This would be a good way to to keep some bonuses thematic to the bloodline.

That would be cool! Though how would other characters know the difference between varying sorcerers (if thats also a goal)?
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apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2024, 11:17:57 PM »
I mean this would be part of a suite of class features, to include thematic abilities that would be unique to that bloodline. Also the bonus doesn't have to be a boring + to DC - it could be, say, fire damage for infernal triggers a bonus effect even if that's just extra damage of a different type.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 12:24:19 AM by apeppertoo »
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2024, 03:57:02 AM »
This was well put, I would love any sort of mechanical function to show some differentiation between one sorcerer from another, doesn't have to be major groundbreaking amazing changes to the class, just something cool that someone can see and say "Hey, thats something I havent seen from other sorcerers (or the ones I know), thats cool".
Doesn't have to be, but it sure would be great if it was. I know that potm dev choices often skew towards nerfing but we're finally, at long last, coming around to the idea that maybe, just maybe, this class actually needs mechanical help to reinforce their roleplay, niche, and overall gameplay. Don't be cautious, don't hedge your bets. Shoot for the stars, tell us what you really want! You know, the same way we've done for almost every other class in the video game (again, poor assassins). Now make me excited for them, because one or two SLA aren't it. Make me excited the same way fighters were giddy when they got to open their christmas presents early with the combat feats (even if they're pending a nerf, the suite as it stands is an absurd power boost to what was always at worst slightly below average even as a pure class, just wholly unexciting), the same way warmages hit the jackpot when EO decided to remove not only their split casting, but also make their damage bonuses multiplicative instead of additive. The same way we've refrained from nerfing bard by keeping the notably superior 3e edition the game shipped with, and gave them new and shinier toys to boot. The same way we're finally talking about barbarian buffs or other interesting changes. I can keep going, but I hope you see what my point here is.

And though this should not need stating, I am as ever speaking only for myself. If I was speaking from my capacity as a member of the community council, or a moderator, it would have been prefaced to say as much.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 04:01:53 AM by bloodless »

MAB77

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2024, 06:35:50 AM »
Would it be possible to introduce class features that interact with spells with certain descriptors? Say, for anything with a Fire descriptor, +2 dc, stacking with spell foci? This would be a good way to to keep some bonuses thematic to the bloodline.

That's definitively something being considered, it remains to be seen how the engine can be adjusted to allow that. An alternative could be to grant some bloodlines Epic Spell Focus at some point.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2024, 08:13:00 AM »
Bloodlines is not about buffing.  We had a long discussion about this already.  It is about flavor.  Sorcerers in POTM, for probably 90% of builds, are largely indistinguishable from one another because certain spell selections are necessary to handle mechanical content.  This leaves precious little room for thematic builds.  The goal for bloodlines is to give distinguishing features to sorcerers that don't require them to waste limited spells known or limited feats, and they already have very few skill points to play with.

I don't advise having lots of additional spells like they do in Pathfinder.  The D&D 20srd has a different way of implementing bloodlines, but even that is probably not ideal.  Rather than crib wholesale from some other system's implementation, I would use those as inspirations but come up with a homebrew version of bloodlines that are appropriate for POTM.

For example, 20srd has "lycanthrope bloodline" (thematically appropriate for POTM) and the flavor boosts it receives are:
4th   +2 on Search checks
8th   Power Attack or Dodge
12th   Constitution +1
16th   Scent (Ex) [not implemented in NWN]
20th   Lycanthrope affinity +2 [not implemented in NWN]

For a POTM homebrew version of this, you could substitute more reasonable flavor options along with some appropriate drawbacks:
4th   Disguise Self 1/day as a bonus ability (descended from shapeshifters)
8th   Since we are descended from shapeshifters, Charlatan [think "Werewolf of London" -- his hair was perfect], but a corresponding malus like -2 concentration or discipline [because you are easily distracted -- "squirrel!"]
12th   Since we don't use ability boosts in POTM, a feat like endurance instead, coupled with a small vulnerability (bludgeoning, for example -- a silver sling bullet?)
16th   Lunatic feat (both a positive and negative for the player)
20th   Voracious (again, both a positive and negative for the player)

The bloodline should be designed thematically with progressively more evidence of the bloodline emerging.  This is definitely doable without creating any sort of weird power creep.  Sorcerers have not been updated at all since the invention of NWN, while the other classes have had multiple revamps and tweaks to make them more interesting.

Bloodline levels in 3.5 are not adding any additional benefits to the characters. Those levels should be taken seperately on level up. So, you have to spent your level ups on those bloodline levels and if you stop levelling on your bloodline before a certain level, you do not gain further bonus. I saw only a limited amount of players choose them over class. They're not flavor options but less optimized semi-classes.

Quote
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.



This means bloodlines should be implemented as Classes and you have to take them on level up. I believe there are engine limitations on this. So, strengthing a bloodline by inner focusing in exchange of focusing your magical studies sounds fair to me but I doubt players will choose it over 20 level casting progression. And I don't think we require that much effort for a thing that only a small fraction of playerbase would enjoy.

The answer could be out there but I doubt it's 3.X's editions Bloodline's implemention.

What I offer is, just like Wizards get a feat on every 5th level, a sorcerer could get small bonus as their capabilities increase. Levelling on a sorcerer could be read as unlocking oneself's true blood potential so it could go like this:

As a template:

Level 1: You're a sorcerer, thanks to your bloodline, nothing new
Level 5: +2 on a skill related to the bloodline chosen
Level 10: Free feat related to the bloodline chosen and Related Elemental Resistance X
Level 15: Visual changes (Glowing eyes, unusual skin color, whatever themetically fits)
Level 20: Free feat and Increased Elemental Resistance X and +2 on a skill related to the bloodline chosen

Here, there is nothing broken, now every sorcerer has some variety to their appearance if they wish and free feats could give them oppurtunity to create alternative playstyles.

We can see a melee sorcerer comes from a Frost Giant Bloodline thanks to Martial Weapon Proficiency and Power Attack feats given free, with resistance to cold and skill bonus on Discipline. Now this one would probably select less used Tenser's transformation and Blackstaff over some other spells.

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2024, 11:25:52 AM »
Bloodline levels in 3.5 are not adding any additional benefits to the characters. Those levels should be taken seperately on level up. So, you have to spent your level ups on those bloodline levels and if you stop levelling on your bloodline before a certain level, you do not gain further bonus. I saw only a limited amount of players choose them over class. They're not flavor options but less optimized semi-classes.

This is only if you want to crib directly from other source material.  The bloodline discussion we've been having for a long time isn't about adding a new class, or destabilizing new powers.  It is about a homebrew batch of flavorings to make sorcerers FUN again.  Note that I didn't say more powerful.  FUN.  Right now, they aren't really much fun because every sorcerer I have ever made has been largely cookie-cutter from every other sorcerer -- not because I lack imagination, but because the mechanical content on POTM forces certain spell selections over others, and sorcerers have minimal feats and skills to allow for significant distinguishing RP.


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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2024, 11:45:19 AM »

Fey and Fiendish bloodlines would likely be the most common ones encountered in the Mists, and if we have to restrict ourselves those would be the ones I'd consider in priority.

Though if you wish the complete list of bloodlines I'd like to see in-game, I had those in mind

Acidic Dragon
Electrical Dragon
Fiery Dragon
Icy Dragon
Fey
Abyssal
Infernal
Celestial
Primordial
Necromantic
Arcane
Fortune (Fate/Divination/Curses)
Serpentine
Eldritch
Blighted (Corrupted Nature)
Verdant (Nature touched, but not Fey)

Just a few clarifying questions MAB.  I have no prejudice against dragons, but given that Ravenloft doesn't really have them as native species, is it really thematic?  By primordial, this would encompass the different elemental bloodlines?  Is necromantic the same as an undead bloodline? For setting flavor, we could add some version of a Shapechanger bloodine, Hag bloodline (although Hagspawn may have this partially covered already), Possessed bloodline [an ancestor was once possessed by "something"].


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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2024, 12:26:46 PM »
Just a few clarifying questions MAB.  I have no prejudice against dragons, but given that Ravenloft doesn't really have them as native species, is it really thematic?  By primordial, this would encompass the different elemental bloodlines?  Is necromantic the same as an undead bloodline? For setting flavor, we could add some version of a Shapechanger bloodine, Hag bloodline (although Hagspawn may have this partially covered already), Possessed bloodline [an ancestor was once possessed by "something"].

We already have draconic bloodlines through characters with the Draconic Ancestry template and our legacy Dragon Disciples. It is logical that these characters be allowed to pick a draconic sorcerous bloodline.

For Primordial, I am more thinking about sorcerers attuned to the Inner Planes in general, but they could be divided into Air, Earth, Fire & Water bloodlines if we can reasonably come up with interesting powers for them.

Necromantic is used here on a general level. It could encompass undead influence as much as the spell school itself.

Draconic (Fire/Cold/Electrical/Acid), Fey, Infernal and Abyssal, are, IMHO, the quintessential bloodlines that should be covered through bloodlines. All others are icing on the cake. The problem remains that the more you make the harder it gets to keep them all balanced with each other. Not that there is any obligation toward that, but it's best if each bloodlines have an enticing trait of their own that makes it fun to play.

I'm certainly in favor of Ravenloft themed bloodlines if you have any to propose. Shapechangers and Hags could be interesting.
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armybrat69

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2024, 01:54:37 PM »
Mag would any of these changes benefit current sorcs or will this be more an option for newly created?
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2024, 02:20:50 PM »
It's very far from a done thing, but if it happens we're talking about reworking the core mechanics of class. All sorcerers would require a relevel. Therefore even pre-existing ones would benefit from the change.
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SynZero

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2024, 02:46:21 PM »
Alright let's refocus, this back and forth debate is pointless. We do not have to agree, but it is absolutely fair for all to point out why sorcerers would, or not, need more powers. Our mileage and experience differ and will be biased by our play style and preferences.

Fey and Fiendish bloodlines would likely be the most common ones encountered in the Mists, and if we have to restrict ourselves those would be the ones I'd consider in priority.

Though if you wish the complete list of bloodlines I'd like to see in-game, I had those in mind

Acidic Dragon
Electrical Dragon
Fiery Dragon
Icy Dragon
Fey
Abyssal
Infernal
Celestial
Primordial
Necromantic
Arcane
Fortune (Fate/Divination/Curses)
Serpentine
Eldritch
Blighted (Corrupted Nature)
Verdant (Nature touched, but not Fey)

Okay these look pretty good actually. I like this idea a lot. And I'd also agree that Fey and Fiendish are the likely focuses, but I'd couple on Primordial and possibly Blighted as well. They sound like they'd fit the setting. Any ideas what you'd have in mind for blighted?

apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2024, 03:29:47 PM »

Level 1: You're a sorcerer, thanks to your bloodline, nothing new
Level 5: +2 on a skill related to the bloodline chosen
Level 10: Free feat related to the bloodline chosen and Related Elemental Resistance X
Level 15: Visual changes (Glowing eyes, unusual skin color, whatever themetically fits)
Level 20: Free feat and Increased Elemental Resistance X and +2 on a skill related to the bloodline chosen

Here, there is nothing broken, now every sorcerer has some variety to their appearance if they wish and free feats could give them oppurtunity to create alternative playstyles.

We can see a melee sorcerer comes from a Frost Giant Bloodline thanks to Martial Weapon Proficiency and Power Attack feats given free, with resistance to cold and skill bonus on Discipline. Now this one would probably select less used Tenser's transformation and Blackstaff over some other spells.

Sorry but this is mostly flavorless and pretty unimpactful mechanically. Even in the example you cite you'd be a garbage melee combatant compared to literally any wizard, who can afford those and better feats as well as the skill points necessary to actually engage in melee combat (parry, discipline, tumble). What's worse, the wizard can simply change his spellbook when he's done half assing a martial whereas you're stuck with the bad choices you made.

Bloodlines need to be substantially better than +2 to a random skill and a random feat, especially if we take your level 15 idea and you turn us into outcasts.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 03:35:23 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2024, 04:38:12 PM »
I am not a total and complete specialist on sorcerer bloodlines, but simply allowing (or giving) the spell like abilities feats to sorcs would be a big big way of boosting the class.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2024, 05:01:18 PM »
What about like, cleric domains where you get certain spells at certain circle levels, but for sorcerers? Is that something that could be done?
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2024, 05:15:05 PM »
What about like, cleric domains where you get certain spells at certain circle levels, but for sorcerers? Is that something that could be done?

It's been tried, but the sorcerer class is mostly hard coded and the clerical domains mechanic does not work for it. We'd have to rescript sorcerers as a custom class, but that's a whole new caliber of worms. At this point, custom feats granting unique powers reminiscent of the bloodline seems the best option, or perhaps using existing feats wizards don't get access to would fit.

For instance I,d make the fey bloodline as this
4th: Hardiness vs Illusion
8th: Woodland Stride
12th: Fey Resilience (Will ST +4)
16th: Epic Spell Focus Enchantment
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Darkthrasher

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2024, 05:16:08 PM »
What about like, cleric domains where you get certain spells at certain circle levels, but for sorcerers? Is that something that could be done?

It's been tried, but the sorcerer class is mostly hard coded and the clerical domains mechanic does not work for it. We'd have to rescript sorcerers as a custom class, but that's a whole new caliber of worms. At this point, custom feats granting unique powers reminiscent of the bloodline seems the best option, or perhaps using existing feats wizards don't get access to would fit.

For instance I,d make the fey bloodline as this
4th: Hardiness vs Illusion
8th: Woodland Stride
12th: Fey Resilience (Will ST +4)
16th: Epic Spell Focus Enchantment

These would be like free feats? Or required to be taken?
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2024, 05:21:45 PM »
There's a few options, but in my mind they would get an extra feat to select their bloodlines then the rest is gained as free feats.
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apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2024, 05:25:48 PM »
They need to be automatically granted on level up, selected by an early feat at 2 or 3 to lock the sorcerer into a certain path. If they're offered as optional feats it's a non-starter: we don't have the feat economy for that.

I think they should be more robust than a few points toward the ST that is already the class' primary save. It's good, but it's not IMO sufficient. There should be some powers to go along with it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 05:30:49 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2024, 05:29:02 PM »
I love the thematic ideas for sorcs in the bloodlines MAB, including the ones you want to get implemented. I don’t have any current ideas on what to add but the posted example sounds cool already. I will post later on if I have something along those lines to offer up.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2024, 05:54:11 PM »
I hesitantly am for 'Bloodlines'. Class is great but has been knocked down a peg a little when you take PoTM's additions from vanilla.

- Larger spell lists and necessary utility means sorcerer is missing out on something due to its limited spell selection that hits harder than it otherwise would in Vanilla.

- Multiclassing rules on the server destroy classic sorcerer builds: 19 Sorcerer/1 Paladin for instance which is frankly a little silly from an RP stand point but on a mechanical level this was something that sorcerer characters did.

I think Bloodlines is good for identification purposes something that I think both Wizard and Sorcerer lack. The differences between the two classes should be more visible and apparent.

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2024, 05:55:56 PM »
Gonna crib from Pathfinder again, will focus on bonus spells and powers:

Undead/Necromantic Bloodline

Bonus spells, in order by circle:

  • Chill Touch (Not implemented in PotM. Suggest negative energy ray instead?)
  • False Life
  • Vampiric Touch
  • Animate Dead (Not certain there is an arcane undead-summoning spell at this level. Replace with Enervation or Bestow Curse?)
  • Waves of Fatigue (Could be a new spell to interact directly with our fatigue system, otherwise just put Animate Dead or Thalassemia)
  • Undeath to Death
  • Finger of Death
  • Horrid Wilting
  • Energy Drain

Naturally I think most of these are either middling-and-evil to incredible-but-evil, which is pretty much how the Necromancy school is. I personally think animate dead (and Celestial's Gate) are mostly a waste as summons are terrible and require too much feat investment just to still be terrible, but that's fine for a strict list of spells a bloodline has to take.

Next, bloodline powers!

Quote
Grave Touch (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can make a melee touch attack as a standard action that causes a living creature to become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1). If you touch a shaken creature with this ability, it becomes frightened for 1 round if it has fewer Hit Dice than your sorcerer level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

I like this ability and it's thematic, but we'd need different effects to apply to it. It's sort of a budget palemaster arm without the RP or commitment, but it doesn't turn you into a notably evil outcast. I think simplifying it to a fear effect would do, but of course I'd be willing to hear suggestions. It's a pretty steep risk to make a melee touch attack for a fear, after all.

Quote
Death’s Gift (Su): At 3rd level, you gain resist cold 5 and DR 5/— against nonlethal damage. At 9th level, your resistance to cold increases to 10 and your DR increases to 10/— against nonlethal damage.

We don't really have nonlethal damage unless we count subdual, so I propose an alternative to go with the cold resistance: an undead-blooded sorcerer is immune to bleeding out while downed. They still have to make the check to eventually recover but if they're not finished off they will get back up. I think this is obviously extremely thematic and fun and plays to the class promise of the sorcerer being something less and more than human(oid). I think this would be an appropriately creepy power!

Quote
Grasp of the Dead (Sp): At 9th level, you can cause a swarm of skeletal arms to burst from the ground to rip and tear at your foes. The skeletal arms erupt from the ground in a 20-foot-radius burst. Anyone in this area takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area receive a Reflex save for half damage. Those who fail the save are unable to move for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The skeletal arms disappear after 1 round. The arms must burst up from a solid surface. At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day. This power has a range of 60 feet.

I think this is wildly cool and were I doing things I'd implement it as-is. It's got a reasonable DC for its power - were my sorcerer of this bloodline the max DC she could reach would be 30 with a perfect roll of an empowered Eagles Splendor.

Quote
Incorporeal Form (Sp): At 15th level, you can become incorporeal for 1 round per sorcerer level. While in this form, you gain the incorporeal subtype. You only take half damage from corporeal sources as long as they are magic (you take no damage from non-magic weapons and objects). Likewise, your spells deal only half damage to corporeal creatures. Spells and other effects that do not deal damage function normally. You can use this ability once per day.

This could, more or less, be implemented as a bonus, spell-like Ethereal Jaunt, maybe one that doesn't require somatic or verbal components. Nothing too earth shaking but still fits the theme.

Quote
One of Us (Ex): At 20th level, your form begins to rot (the appearance of this decay is up to you) and undead see you as one of them. You gain immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. You also gain DR 5/—. Unintelligent undead do not notice you unless you attack them. You receive a +4 morale bonus on saving throws made against spells and spell-like abilities cast by undead.

Like most capstones this would need to be toned down especially on POTM as it stomps on the toes of an app PRC. We'd toss the cosmetic effect and immunity to cold.

I think keeping the paralysis and sleep immunity would be alright. Powerful but niche, kind of like the Celestial petrification immunity. I don't think we should do the unintelligent undead thing unless we're fine with Dirgists having friends. I think the +4 bonus vs the effects of undead would be awesome if it can be done in NWN.

The 5 DR is also pretty nice. So to summarize this capstone:

Immunity to paralysis and sleep.
DR 5 physical, kind of like a barbarian.
+4 bonus to saving throws vs the effects of undead creatures

All in all, this is one of the easier bloodlines to adapt. I don't think the power scaling needs to be peeled back all that much.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 06:05:42 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2024, 07:26:33 PM »
What about like, cleric domains where you get certain spells at certain circle levels, but for sorcerers? Is that something that could be done?

It's been tried, but the sorcerer class is mostly hard coded and the clerical domains mechanic does not work for it. We'd have to rescript sorcerers as a custom class, but that's a whole new caliber of worms. At this point, custom feats granting unique powers reminiscent of the bloodline seems the best option, or perhaps using existing feats wizards don't get access to would fit.

For instance I,d make the fey bloodline as this
4th: Hardiness vs Illusion
8th: Woodland Stride
12th: Fey Resilience (Will ST +4)
16th: Epic Spell Focus Enchantment

I think something like this for each bloodline would be amazing... although for me it doesn't solve the problem completely. With the current level of spells known sorcerer's spell lists are 80-90% identical, and although these bloodline feats might sway my selections to some degree, there is still very little actual room to do so. Even with epic spell focus Enchantment in this case, it would surprise me if a sorcerer was able to fit more than two or three relevant enchantment spells in their entire list without majorly impacting their ability to function. (See they fey-blooded sorcerer package as an example, which is making some major sacrifices already).

A small increase in spells known to go along with flavorful bloodline feats would help immensly for sorcerer's to differentiate themselves. Personally I find the odd circles to have slightly more flexibility than the evens as it is currently. Perhaps one additional spell known for the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th circles at max level would go a long way to facilitating this.

Hemolymph

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2024, 08:29:43 PM »
It's been tried, but the sorcerer class is mostly hard coded and the clerical domains mechanic does not work for it. We'd have to rescript sorcerers as a custom class, but that's a whole new caliber of worms. At this point, custom feats granting unique powers reminiscent of the bloodline seems the best option, or perhaps using existing feats wizards don't get access to would fit.

For instance I,d make the fey bloodline as this
4th: Hardiness vs Illusion
8th: Woodland Stride
12th: Fey Resilience (Will ST +4)
16th: Epic Spell Focus Enchantment

If this gets implemented I'd hope the ESF can be chosen from a couple alternatives. Fey have bonuses to recognize and to make illusions too, not just enchantments. Something like a Primordial or Infernal bloodline could also be a choice between ESF evocation and conjuration for instance.
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myrddraal

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2024, 10:34:24 PM »
Gonna crib from Pathfinder again, will focus on bonus spells and powers:

Undead/Necromantic Bloodline

Bonus spells, in order by circle:

  • Chill Touch (Not implemented in PotM. Suggest negative energy ray instead?)
  • False Life
  • Vampiric Touch
  • Animate Dead (Not certain there is an arcane undead-summoning spell at this level. Replace with Enervation or Bestow Curse?)
  • Waves of Fatigue (Could be a new spell to interact directly with our fatigue system, otherwise just put Animate Dead or Thalassemia)
  • Undeath to Death
  • Finger of Death
  • Horrid Wilting
  • Energy Drain

Naturally I think most of these are either middling-and-evil to incredible-but-evil, which is pretty much how the Necromancy school is. I personally think animate dead (and Celestial's Gate) are mostly a waste as summons are terrible and require too much feat investment just to still be terrible, but that's fine for a strict list of spells a bloodline has to take.

Next, bloodline powers!

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Grave Touch (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can make a melee touch attack as a standard action that causes a living creature to become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1). If you touch a shaken creature with this ability, it becomes frightened for 1 round if it has fewer Hit Dice than your sorcerer level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

I like this ability and it's thematic, but we'd need different effects to apply to it. It's sort of a budget palemaster arm without the RP or commitment, but it doesn't turn you into a notably evil outcast. I think simplifying it to a fear effect would do, but of course I'd be willing to hear suggestions. It's a pretty steep risk to make a melee touch attack for a fear, after all.

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Death’s Gift (Su): At 3rd level, you gain resist cold 5 and DR 5/— against nonlethal damage. At 9th level, your resistance to cold increases to 10 and your DR increases to 10/— against nonlethal damage.

We don't really have nonlethal damage unless we count subdual, so I propose an alternative to go with the cold resistance: an undead-blooded sorcerer is immune to bleeding out while downed. They still have to make the check to eventually recover but if they're not finished off they will get back up. I think this is obviously extremely thematic and fun and plays to the class promise of the sorcerer being something less and more than human(oid). I think this would be an appropriately creepy power!

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Grasp of the Dead (Sp): At 9th level, you can cause a swarm of skeletal arms to burst from the ground to rip and tear at your foes. The skeletal arms erupt from the ground in a 20-foot-radius burst. Anyone in this area takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area receive a Reflex save for half damage. Those who fail the save are unable to move for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The skeletal arms disappear after 1 round. The arms must burst up from a solid surface. At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day. This power has a range of 60 feet.

I think this is wildly cool and were I doing things I'd implement it as-is. It's got a reasonable DC for its power - were my sorcerer of this bloodline the max DC she could reach would be 30 with a perfect roll of an empowered Eagles Splendor.

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Incorporeal Form (Sp): At 15th level, you can become incorporeal for 1 round per sorcerer level. While in this form, you gain the incorporeal subtype. You only take half damage from corporeal sources as long as they are magic (you take no damage from non-magic weapons and objects). Likewise, your spells deal only half damage to corporeal creatures. Spells and other effects that do not deal damage function normally. You can use this ability once per day.

This could, more or less, be implemented as a bonus, spell-like Ethereal Jaunt, maybe one that doesn't require somatic or verbal components. Nothing too earth shaking but still fits the theme.

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One of Us (Ex): At 20th level, your form begins to rot (the appearance of this decay is up to you) and undead see you as one of them. You gain immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. You also gain DR 5/—. Unintelligent undead do not notice you unless you attack them. You receive a +4 morale bonus on saving throws made against spells and spell-like abilities cast by undead.

Like most capstones this would need to be toned down especially on POTM as it stomps on the toes of an app PRC. We'd toss the cosmetic effect and immunity to cold.

I think keeping the paralysis and sleep immunity would be alright. Powerful but niche, kind of like the Celestial petrification immunity. I don't think we should do the unintelligent undead thing unless we're fine with Dirgists having friends. I think the +4 bonus vs the effects of undead would be awesome if it can be done in NWN.

The 5 DR is also pretty nice. So to summarize this capstone:

Immunity to paralysis and sleep.
DR 5 physical, kind of like a barbarian.
+4 bonus to saving throws vs the effects of undead creatures

All in all, this is one of the easier bloodlines to adapt. I don't think the power scaling needs to be peeled back all that much.

While summons arent great, I think create undead and create greater undead would be good fits for a necromantic themed sorcerer for bloodline spells granted.  Something like the augment undead feats being granted would also be a good touch.

For fiendish / celestial you could probably lump most of them together with the augment summon feats, give them planar binding, etc, and gate (especially since now gate calls on something based on alignment)

Beyond that I dont really have any other 2 cents as far as as fully fleshed out bloodlines.

apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2024, 05:19:50 AM »
Here comes more, maybe I'll get this to thread to a quarter of the length of the last two wizard threads if I just keep posting.

Fey

Bonus spells, in order by circle:

  • Entangle
  • Hideous Laughter
  • Deep Slumber
  • Poison (Would have to be Spider Poison)
  • Tree Stride (Not a POTM spell. Baleful Polymorph would be a pretty standard replacement, or Dominate Person, Hold Monster, or even Lesser Mind Blank)
  • Mislead (Also not a POTM spell. Could do Coma but redundant spells on a sorcerer suck and it's already getting deep slumber. Could also be Ethereal Visage, Mass Haste, or Power Word Daze)
  • Phase Door (Will never be a POTM spell. Mass Hold Person, Power Word Blind, Improved Invis Sphere, and even maybe Prismatic Spray could replace it, maybe?)
  • Irresistible Dance (this would rule if it were a POTM spell. If not... I'd never recommend Mass Charm on this server for any reason and I won't recommend it here even if it's thematic. Power Word Stun is really all that fits. Could also take Deadly Lahar for an offensive option though it's far less thematic.)
  • Shapechange

There's a lot of varied DC spells in these suggestions which I'd frown upon normally, especially as they are spread across various spell schools. Still, I think a dedicated sorcerer could do a fair amount with these choices supplementing their normal spell selection.

Bloodline powers!

Quote
Laughing Touch (Sp): At 1st level, you can cause a creature to burst out laughing for 1 round as a melee touch attack. A laughing creature can only take a move action but can defend itself normally. Once a creature has been affected by laughing touch, it is immune to its effects for 24 hours. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This is a mind-affecting effect.

I could probably see this as fair even if it's redundant with Hideous Laughter considering the restrictions if, and only if, the effect had no DC. Yes, immunity to mind-affecting effects should confer immunity, but if a sorcerer is taking the risk to walk up and touch an enemy, and succeeds, they should be rewarded for this. It would also be a fairly funny opener in combat.

Quote
Woodland Stride (Ex): At 3rd level, you can move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at your normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect you.

This would be simplified to be a copy of the Druid class feature of the same name: Woodland Stride - Immunity to Grease, Web, and Entangle spells.

Quote
Fleeting Glance (Sp): At 9th level, you can turn invisible for a number of rounds per day equal to your sorcerer level. This ability functions as greater invisibility. These rounds need not be consecutive.

I'm not sure if the exact features and restrictions here would be able to be implemented but I think a self-only spell-like improved invisibility spell-like effect is perfectly fine.

Quote
Fey Magic (Su): At 15th level, you may reroll any caster level check made to overcome spell resistance. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed by the GM. You must take the second result, even if it is worse. You can use this ability at will.

Given it's not tabletop this cannot be implemented, as we can't roll first and have the combat log hide it. This could simply be a small boost to spell penetration, instead?

Quote
Soul of the Fey (Su): At 20th level, your soul becomes one with the world of the fey. You gain immunity to poison and DR 10/cold iron. Creatures of the animal type do not attack you unless compelled to do so through magic. Once per day, you can cast shadow walk as a spell-like ability using your sorcerer level as your caster level.

We can't really replicate DR that is pierced by particular materials. This could be 5DR/- again like undead, above. Immunity to poison is pretty niche but I suppose that's alright. So, too, can we not put something like Shadow Walk in POTM, as its more-or-less used like a budget teleport with some effects that would need to be overseen by a DM.

I'm having a hard time coming up with a replacement for the Shadow Walk effect. I think a bonus to will saves would be appropriate, +2 or so.

Capstone summary:
5 DR / -
Immunity to Poison
+2 to Will Saves

I had a harder time with this one, and I think that the capstone is markedly weaker than Celestial or Undead! Still, the prior effects feel pretty alright. My takeaway? Make Irresistable Dance a real spell pls.
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