Author Topic: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread  (Read 4980 times)

apeppertoo

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Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« on: August 01, 2024, 03:45:16 PM »
Hi yeah I think Pathfinder already did a good job and we should largely just crib from that system and tone it down where appropriate. I will start with Celestial as it's my go-to example and others are welcome to suggest more. This is all mostly informal and I'm bad at formatting so I apologize in advance.

Celestial

First, I think that's a perfectly good selection of bonus spells that are all already able to be represented on POTM. For those who hate clicking links, they are in order from Circles 1-9:

  • Bless (Level 3)
  • Resist Energy (Resist Elements in NWN) (Level 5)
  • Magic Circle against Evil (Magic Circle against Alignment) (Level 7)
  • Remove Curse (Level 9)
  • Flame Strike (Level 11)
  • Greater Dispel Magic (Greater Dispelling) (Level 13)
  • Banishment (Level 15)
  • Sunburst (Level 17)
  • Gate (Level 19)

The bonus feats listed would all be pretty nice to have considering sorcerer's abysmal feat economy but I don't think they really move much of a needle for me personally. Several of them can't be represented in NWN anyway, particularly the riding feats.

So, too, can the bloodline arcana not really be represented. We don't have damage reduction that can be broken by anything but attack bonuses/weapon enhancements, we can't use alignment-based DR.

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Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell of the summoning subschool, the creatures summoned gain DR/evil equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1). This does not stack with any DR the creature might have.

I would not be bothered if that were dropped too. Now we get into the nitty gritty! The bloodline powers would be what really distinguishes any particular bloodline from wizards and would be things they should not be able to replicate.

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Heavenly Fire (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash a ray of heavenly fire as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Against evil creatures, this ray deals 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. This damage is divine and not subject to energy resistance or immunity. This ray heals good creatures of 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. A good creature cannot benefit from your heavenly fire more than once per day. Neutral creatures are neither harmed nor healed by this effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Heavenly Fire, I think, could easily be adapted as-is. Perhaps it could be adapted to a Light-based power just for thematic concerns since Infernal and several Draconic bloodlines will have fire locked down. A contextual ability depending on the target's alignment is not a very common ability but it is also not unheard of: paladin and blackguard smites perform this way, and Damning Darkness (4th circle) has varied effects depending on target alignment.

Wizards cannot directly heal anyone no matter their alignment, and I think this ability is thematic, appropriately powerful at each level of scaling, and really fun. There are PVP opt-in concerns so I think there'll be some RP responsibility to carry before using this ability: I would not personally use it on anyone who hasn't given me permission, or someone with whom I do not have opt-in.

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Celestial Resistances (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain resist acid 5 and resist cold 5. At 9th level, your resistances increase to 10.

I think these are fair resistances to get. I think that the increase they get at 9 should cap there (I will get to this when we get to the capstone).

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Wings of Heaven (Su): At 9th level, you can sprout feathery wings and fly for a number of minutes per day equal to your sorcerer level, with a speed of 60 feet and good maneuverability. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.

While this would be really awesome it can't really be implemented fairly on POTM and I expect it'd be dropped entirely. Maybe someone can come up with an angelic halo-like ability to replace it, but I would not be too fussed not to get anything here (9th level) at all save the resistances.

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Conviction (Su): At 15th level, you can reroll any one ability check, attack roll, skill check, or saving throw you just made. You must decide to use this ability after the die is rolled, but before the results are revealed by the GM. You must take the second result, even if it is worse. You can use this ability once per day.

This just can't be implemented on POTM. Instead I would give the Celestial sorcerer Resist Fire 5 and Resist Electricity 5 at 15th level, to accurately represent Celestial resistances to the favored elements of their primary fiendish foes. In addition I would consider the Tongues effect (more in next segment) to take effect at 15.

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Ascension (Su): At 20th level, you become infused with the power of the heavens. You gain:

Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification
Resist electricity 10
Resist fire 10
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison
Unlimited use of the Wings of Heaven ability
the ability to speak with any creature that has a language (as per the tongues spell).

This is obviously too good. I would strip out the immunities and tone down the secondary resistances. Perhaps keep the immunity to petrification only as it's very very niche yet thematic. Wings of Heaven won't be implemented so that's gone. So as I see it, the 20th level capstone would at best be:

Immunity to petrification
Resist acid and cold 10
Resist electricity and fire 5
+4 saves vs poison
and the big one: Bonus language slots equal to the Sorcerer's Charisma modifier. Celestials in D&D are always under the effects of a Tongues spell and obviously knowing every language would be absurd, but this would be a good compromise to represent their heritage and their development of their blood - it would be something unique to Sorcerers that other classes cannot benefit from. It'd be a fun way to distinguish them in RP that has a real, mechanical benefit, and it closes the gap between the Celestial sorcerer and a Wizard with respect to language slots.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2024, 03:59:19 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2024, 05:48:31 PM »
If blood lines got added in, that would be super cool. Even if its just some of the bonus spells and perhaps a skill boost as relevant.
Perhaps Influence +2 or +4 for the celestial bloodline as an example.
For anything as a capstone like what is typical for PF classes, if implemented I could see a sorc hitting a very high OCR and being considered like an outsider just as monks are at level 20.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2024, 06:00:14 PM »
I fail to see the reason behind this. Sorcerer as it is in a good place. On the other hand the module is based on D&D 3.X Edition. Those suggestions are neither Ravenloft nor edition related.

apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2024, 06:12:38 PM »
I fail to see the reason behind this.

This is the reason behind this.

Any boost to influence might as well not exist, it's the worst skill in the game by a long shot.

I don't see any reason why you'd OCR boost for this, but if you do you'd better justify it and give me my angel wings and don't tone down the power nearly as much as I have.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2024, 06:24:07 PM »
I think this Heavenly Fire parallels the Spellfire ability in FR a bit so that's mega cool.

There's also a number of Sorcerer only dragon spells in various magazines that could be implemented as a spell-like ability feat off a radial for a draconic branch of sorcerer.

My favourite experience as a sorcerer was on EFU Chap4 as a "positivist" where all fire spells were converted into healing equivalents and all other offensive spells were disabled, so I'm a bit biased towards Spellfire.

MAB77

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2024, 06:29:51 PM »
You already know my thoughts on the matter, I won't repeat them all, but for the benefits of those that do not:

- Sorcerer is a powerful and succesful class on its own merits. It does not inherently need any kind of boost whatsoever. However, it is sorely lacking in features to differentiate them from other arcane classes, and that is why the idea of bloodlines is being entertained.

- Pathfinder is a very serious power creep and that's not the goal here. There would be a power creep anyway simply by virtue of granting them more features, but we have to be careful not to over do it. The goal is to retool the class to be more interesting and fun to play, not make them Wizards 2.0.

- The pathfinder bloodlines are certainly being scrutinized, and it's not out of the question to adapt some of the features. Note however that most of them cannot be implemented as is with the NWN game engine. But it's quite alright for them to serve as inspiration.

- Sorcerous bloodlines should be complementary not replacing racial templates. It is a huge mistake of Pathfinder (IMHO) to go that route. Sorcerous bloodlines should not be a way to bypass a racial template. That would be unfair to those that made the effort to apply for an ECL race. If you want your character to have physical traits reminescent of an angel, then you 100% should pick the aasimar racial template. Whereas the perks of a sorcerous bloodline should focus on how it affects the character's magic or at the very least features not covered in the racial template. So rule of thumb, if a given racial template gives a certain perk (notably the DRs), they should not be repeated it in the corresponding bloodline.

- I would grant an extra bonus that other sorcerers would not get to those making the effort of combining a racial template with a corresponding bloodline. Combos I can think of are: Feytouched + Fey; Tainted One + Serpentine; Aasimar/Axani/Cansin/Celadrin/Fire Gnome + Celestial; Tiefling/Axani + Infernal; Tiefling/Cansin/Frost Dwarf/Tanarukk + Abyssal; Draconic Ancestry + Acidic/Electrical/Fiery/Icy Dragon Bloodline.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2024, 06:31:22 PM »
I fail to see the reason behind this.

This is the reason behind this.

Any boost to influence might as well not exist, it's the worst skill in the game by a long shot.

I don't see any reason why you'd OCR boost for this, but if you do you'd better justify it and give me my angel wings and don't tone down the power nearly as much as I have.



In my experience of playing a high level sorcerer I have found the class to be in a strong place when played correctly. Sure you're going to be at a disadvantage when compared to wizard when it comes to versatility, but the ability to cast spells spontaneously without any preparation has its own merit, especially when you take into account metamagic to fully maximise spell use.

On the topic of bloodlines generally, sure it'll be great to see what devs implement for flavour but I don't think it's exactly super needed to make sorcerer more viable mechanically as it's still one of the strongest classes around.



apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2024, 06:53:53 PM »
In my experience of playing a high level sorcerer I have found the class to be in a strong place when played correctly.

Thank you for joining the long parade of people who over the years have implied I'm playing incorrectly.

Sorcerer is not even in the top 4 or 5 classes, mechanically. Top four goes to, in any order, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Voodan.

Favored Soul, with its perfect saves, suite of class features, and vastly superior numbers of spells learned, is closer in mechanical strength to Cleric than Sorcerer is to Wizard.

Quote
If you want your character to have physical traits reminescent of an angel, then you 100% should pick the aasimar racial template.

My comment re:wings was a one-off reaction to the idea that I should get OCR bumped to outcast status.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2024, 06:57:03 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2024, 07:04:22 PM »
I was more laying ground rules as to what I'd like to see in future proposals. The point is that I would avoid anything inducing physical transformation in a sorcerer and bumping OCR as part of the sorcerous bloodlines. Other than casting a dubious spell-like ability in front of NPCs that is. We may have newer characters unfamiliar with all our systems and it could be disappointing that they slowly turn into an outcast for not knowing about the OCR system.
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apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2024, 07:13:12 PM »
I will generally agree to that sentiment so long as bloodline effects aren't that mechanically robust. Were they as powerful as they are in Pathfinder yeah I'd expect to be an outcast instantly.

Only Dark has commented much on specific proposals. I'll admit that besides the bonus spells the Heavenly Fire effect is pretty exciting.

If we can't have resistances because it'd step on ECL race features then we'd need to come up with more and different powers. What about the petrification immunity? AFAIK that is not reflected in Aasimar features.

I'm pretty leery of turning actual spells into spell-like abilities off a radial as they are far less robust, dynamic, and powerful than actual spells. If I get, example, bless, but only like 1 a day and I can't metamagic it, that'd be really disappointing. POTM implemented proper spellbooks for Assassin and Blackguard to get away from their crappy base NWN implementation.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2024, 07:19:57 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2024, 07:21:54 PM »
In my experience of playing a high level sorcerer I have found the class to be in a strong place when played correctly.

Thank you for joining the long parade of people who over the years have implied I'm playing incorrectly.

Sorcerer is not even in the top 4 or 5 classes, mechanically. Top four goes to, in any order, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Voodan.


-1 To buffing Sorcerer in general,  if you are knowledgeable about meta-magic the class is extremely powerful. If there is a "long parade of people" telling you something based off of their experiences and they are attempting to convey that information to you, it may not hurt to listen.  Out of the top 4 classes you just listed, you can only compare Sorcerer to Wizard, so thats a bit of a strawman. Perhaps you haven't seen a proper Warlock in action.

If Bloodlines get added, thats great. Sorcerer absolutely doesn't need a buff which is why I assume they are extremely low priority for the developers. Sorcerer is the middle-ground between Wizard and Warmage (If you are only thinking mechanically, which you shouldn't - I reject the age-old Sorcerer thesis alone based on that premise alone). It just takes a bit of conscious planning of your spells, which you can refund and swap every level. You get to spontaneous cast extremely high damage spells while also having the option to buff yourself and your party. All the bonus spells proposed I am against in general, as a wise Sorcerer should be using every metamagic option at their disposal to the maximum, so adding more spells to their pool is actually the most powerful buff you can give them.

Keep the benefits racial, that is your actual bloodlines.

MAB77

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2024, 07:31:26 PM »
Just to be clear, I'm not saying they can't have DR, I was just stating my preferences.

The spell-like abilities is an unfortunate necessity. The class is mostly hardcoded. In an ideal world what we would do is to give them thematic bonus spells in their regular known spell list and those would be cast using regular spell slots, but that can't be done in a satisfactory way. I found a way to grant them bonus known spells through a NWNX command, but those could be swapped right away for anything else which defeats the purpose, and then I could only give them spells from the sorcerer spell list. At that point we might just as well spare us the trouble of convoluted scripting and grant them more known spells through the 2da. (That too is being investigated)

Therefore the only way you can have a celestial blooded sorcerer cast a non-sorcerer spell is through a spell-like ability.

And I'm in full agreement with HM01, sorcerers are defitively still at spot #2. Their spontaneous casting abilities, coupled with their capacity to choose spells from all arcane spell, grants them an awesome versatility. While the spells may be locked for a full level, they can still change them at next level up if need be. We still witness the greatness of sorcerers daily on the server. I accept that your perception is different, but you will never be able to convince me otherwise. Hence my stance that I wish to grant them flavor, not power. (Although more power will come by default).
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2024, 08:03:19 PM »
Bloodlines is not about buffing.  We had a long discussion about this already.  It is about flavor.  Sorcerers in POTM, for probably 90% of builds, are largely indistinguishable from one another because certain spell selections are necessary to handle mechanical content.  This leaves precious little room for thematic builds.  The goal for bloodlines is to give distinguishing features to sorcerers that don't require them to waste limited spells known or limited feats, and they already have very few skill points to play with.

I don't advise having lots of additional spells like they do in Pathfinder.  The D&D 20srd has a different way of implementing bloodlines, but even that is probably not ideal.  Rather than crib wholesale from some other system's implementation, I would use those as inspirations but come up with a homebrew version of bloodlines that are appropriate for POTM.

For example, 20srd has "lycanthrope bloodline" (thematically appropriate for POTM) and the flavor boosts it receives are:
4th   +2 on Search checks
8th   Power Attack or Dodge
12th   Constitution +1
16th   Scent (Ex) [not implemented in NWN]
20th   Lycanthrope affinity +2 [not implemented in NWN]

For a POTM homebrew version of this, you could substitute more reasonable flavor options along with some appropriate drawbacks:
4th   Disguise Self 1/day as a bonus ability (descended from shapeshifters)
8th   Since we are descended from shapeshifters, Charlatan [think "Werewolf of London" -- his hair was perfect], but a corresponding malus like -2 concentration or discipline [because you are easily distracted -- "squirrel!"]
12th   Since we don't use ability boosts in POTM, a feat like endurance instead, coupled with a small vulnerability (bludgeoning, for example -- a silver sling bullet?)
16th   Lunatic feat (both a positive and negative for the player)
20th   Voracious (again, both a positive and negative for the player)

The bloodline should be designed thematically with progressively more evidence of the bloodline emerging.  This is definitely doable without creating any sort of weird power creep.  Sorcerers have not been updated at all since the invention of NWN, while the other classes have had multiple revamps and tweaks to make them more interesting.


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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2024, 08:26:53 PM »
The resistance to giving sorcs any mechanical power is so outlandish to me as to be nigh on incomprehensible. Yes the class works, yes there's a cookie cutter build and spell book loadout that's very powerful. One. And? It remains unchanged from the dawn of nwn, the earliest of early 3e content. Not only the game itself but the server we play on has long since left this sad red headed step child of a class in the dust. We've had so many more new spells added over the years, but not one spell selection expansion. We've had so many feats added over the years, but not one feat selection expansion, for the class that has both the fewest feats of any on the server, and is tied for fewest class features. We have updated classes to their 3.5 variants where that was a buff, we've added classes from way later down the development life of third. Some we have homebrewed into the stratosphere. Fighter. Warmage. The obstinacy on display every time this sort of conversation pops up is frankly ridiculous.The whole thing is a badly written joke with no punch line.

For pity's sake, bring this tragedy home, it plays by rules literally nobody else does except Assassin (give them HiPS). It's fifteen years out of date but it's never too late.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2024, 08:32:06 PM by bloodless »

MAB77

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2024, 08:37:21 PM »
The resistance to giving sorcs any mechanical power is so outlandish to me as to be nigh on incomprehensible. Yes the class works, yes there's a cookie cutter build and spell book loadout that's very powerful. One. And? It remains unchanged from the dawn of nwn, the earliest of early 3e content. Not only the game itself but the server we play on has long since left this sad red headed step child of a class in the dust. We've had so many more new spells added over the years, but not one spell selection expansion. We've had so many feats added over the years, but not one feat selection expansion, for the class that has both the fewest feats of any on the server, and is tied for fewest class features. We have updated classes to their 3.5 variants where that was a buff, we've added classes from way later down the development life of third. The obstinacy on display every time this sort of conversation pops up is frankly ridiculous.The whole thing is a badly written joke with no punch line.

For pity's sake, bring this tragedy home, it plays by rules literally nobody else does except Assassin (give them HiPS). It's fifteen years out of time but it's never too late.

The very fact that we are investigating bloodlines means that we are willing to give them mechanical powers and it's a given that they ought to bring some tangible benefits. But those do not have to be immensely powerful effects. Sorcerers are already near the mountain top.

Do not forget however, our main concern is to emulate within reason the P&P ruleset. Though we are willing to depart from it here, there would be nothing wrong nor ridiculous with the status quo either in light of our purpose and intent for the server.
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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2024, 08:40:08 PM »
While I haven't been here long, every time I think of playing a Sorcerer, I'm struck with the same feeling of 'this is going to be painful'.

Mechanically, they have meta magic and no spell preparation, which is great, but that's it. They're meant to have magic born from force of will. Hell, just wiki 'Sorcerer'. There's a lot missing from sorcerer on here. Thematically, there's almost no point to playing sorcerers at the moment, since the origin of your magic literally does not matter. You're far better off playing wardbot or warmage, at least they have a force multiplier to use.

apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2024, 08:53:11 PM »
-1 To buffing Sorcerer in general,  if you are knowledgeable about meta-magic the class is extremely powerful. If there is a "long parade of people" telling you something based off of their experiences and they are attempting to convey that information to you, it may not hurt to listen.

I'm going to just state this outright since you were rude enough to persist in this line of thought.

If you or anyone else continue to imply, insinuate, or otherwise state that I do not know how to play a class I've played on this server for three years straight I am going to escalate this to CC.

The reason I dismiss these statements as a matter of course is not one person saying this, or even arguing against my position that sorcerer needs something, has displayed even a tenth of the analysis and thought demonstrated in Viktor's thread, which I had a very small hand in assisting with. Indeed, most have not demonstrated that they've even read and understood it. Most come back with arguments Viktor preemptively answered in apologia.

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And I'm in full agreement with HM01, sorcerers are defitively still at spot #2.

No. This is just wrong, and I don't think it was ever true. We're not even top 5, every class I've named (Cleric Wizard Druid Voodan) is mechanically superior. There's an argument pure fighters are better. Favored Soul, despite only having the Divine spellbook compared to Arcane, is also arguably better because of its many and varied advantages. Sorcerer's only edge over it is that the Arcane spellbook is considered better, but I submit it's a very close thing and that tons of spells in the Divine book are completely slept on.

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At that point we might just as well spare us the trouble of convoluted scripting and grant them more known spells through the 2da. (That too is being investigated)

Therefore the only way you can have a celestial blooded sorcerer cast a non-sorcerer spell is through a spell-like ability.

Then just do this, and add the thematic spells to only the Sorcerer list. The only spell like abilities should be things like Heavenly Fire, above. If I get, example, Sunburst as a spell like ability it'll be awful because it will be worse than just taking the spell in your real spellbook with respect to spell foci, metamagic, caster level, uses per day, etc.
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2024, 09:00:34 PM »
While I haven't been here long, every time I think of playing a Sorcerer, I'm struck with the same feeling of 'this is going to be painful'.

Mechanically, they have meta magic and no spell preparation, which is great, but that's it. They're meant to have magic born from force of will. Hell, just wiki 'Sorcerer'. There's a lot missing from sorcerer on here. Thematically, there's almost no point to playing sorcerers at the moment, since the origin of your magic literally does not matter. You're far better off playing wardbot or warmage, at least they have a force multiplier to use.

I strongly disagree. As someone who has played both wizard and sorcerer I have found sorcerer a far more enjoyable experience when it comes to playstyle. I have often found having to manually select spells for specific encounters a bit of a chore as a wizard, whereas as a sorcerer that spontaneous casting is a real perk, especially as you go up the levels and your spells per day increase.

And if you're considering warmage and a 'wardbot' as alternatives to sorcerer, both have limitations in what they can offer to a group compared to a sorcerer which can usually cover both wards and offensive power when it comes to its spells.

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2024, 09:00:55 PM »
-1 To buffing Sorcerer in general,  if you are knowledgeable about meta-magic the class is extremely powerful. If there is a "long parade of people" telling you something based off of their experiences and they are attempting to convey that information to you, it may not hurt to listen.

I'm going to just state this outright since you were rude enough to persist in this line of thought.

If you or anyone else continue to imply, insinuate, or otherwise state that I do not know how to play a class I've played on this server for three years straight I am going to escalate this to CC.


I have no idea who you are, or who you play - and since a CC member seems to have posted in agreement with your sentiments here, I won't say anything else even though I believe  they shouldn't be buffed at all. It's not exactly fair to argue any further with you based on that threat if you aren't accepting other people's logic or opinions.

You've also named this thread after your perspective on the class, and invite criticism based on the very thing you are threatening to report people on. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2024, 12:20:23 AM by HM01 »

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2024, 09:05:31 PM »
While I haven't been here long, every time I think of playing a Sorcerer, I'm struck with the same feeling of 'this is going to be painful'.

Mechanically, they have meta magic and no spell preparation, which is great, but that's it. They're meant to have magic born from force of will. Hell, just wiki 'Sorcerer'. There's a lot missing from sorcerer on here. Thematically, there's almost no point to playing sorcerers at the moment, since the origin of your magic literally does not matter. You're far better off playing wardbot or warmage, at least they have a force multiplier to use.

I strongly disagree. As someone who has played both wizard and sorcerer I have found sorcerer a far more enjoyable experience when it comes to playstyle. I have often found having to manually select spells for specific encounters a bit of a chore as a wizard, whereas as a sorcerer that spontaneous casting is a real perk, especially as you go up the levels and your spells per day increase.

And if you're considering warmage and a 'wardbot' as alternatives to sorcerer, both have limitations in what they can offer to a group compared to a sorcerer which can usually cover both wards and offensive power when it comes to its spells.

That isn't how it feels to me at all. Because you're levels behind in spell circles, you're fighting at a lower level than if you were playing either of the other types of caster. You do get more casts, I can accept that for sure, but either one is *far* more useful. Some people don't want a jack of all, master of none, they want something that actually has it's own purpose, and bloodlines makes a lot of sense to me.

Darkthrasher

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2024, 09:10:18 PM »
I think a very minor bonus given as like a starter feat (I know everyone hates more feats, but maybe something sorc specific that wouldnt count to the feat total) would be enough maybe? Something to differentiate bloodlines and offer more RP avenues (maybe like a class related 1x per rest spell based on bloodline choice, if thats simple to add?). All the caster classes are pretty strong on potm, I am pretty sure you can solo content with any of the caster classes, though utility is not something offered to favored souls or sorcs as much as the others.

On MABs note about looking into just flat out having more spells, I think that would be a simple addition that would provide alot more RP possibilities for Sorcerers. The argument against that would be, "it would make them stronger", but they are already (very much the same as every class that has spell slots) limited to number of spell slots that dictates their strength (imo).

What if for example, it was changed to have an one extra spell from circles 1-3? Would that create a imbalance that could be unworkable?
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Darkthrasher

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2024, 09:17:05 PM »
Bloodlines is not about buffing.  We had a long discussion about this already.  It is about flavor.  Sorcerers in POTM, for probably 90% of builds, are largely indistinguishable from one another because certain spell selections are necessary to handle mechanical content.  This leaves precious little room for thematic builds.  The goal for bloodlines is to give distinguishing features to sorcerers that don't require them to waste limited spells known or limited feats, and they already have very few skill points to play with.

I don't advise having lots of additional spells like they do in Pathfinder.  The D&D 20srd has a different way of implementing bloodlines, but even that is probably not ideal.  Rather than crib wholesale from some other system's implementation, I would use those as inspirations but come up with a homebrew version of bloodlines that are appropriate for POTM.

For example, 20srd has "lycanthrope bloodline" (thematically appropriate for POTM) and the flavor boosts it receives are:
4th   +2 on Search checks
8th   Power Attack or Dodge
12th   Constitution +1
16th   Scent (Ex) [not implemented in NWN]
20th   Lycanthrope affinity +2 [not implemented in NWN]

For a POTM homebrew version of this, you could substitute more reasonable flavor options along with some appropriate drawbacks:
4th   Disguise Self 1/day as a bonus ability (descended from shapeshifters)
8th   Since we are descended from shapeshifters, Charlatan [think "Werewolf of London" -- his hair was perfect], but a corresponding malus like -2 concentration or discipline [because you are easily distracted -- "squirrel!"]
12th   Since we don't use ability boosts in POTM, a feat like endurance instead, coupled with a small vulnerability (bludgeoning, for example -- a silver sling bullet?)
16th   Lunatic feat (both a positive and negative for the player)
20th   Voracious (again, both a positive and negative for the player)

The bloodline should be designed thematically with progressively more evidence of the bloodline emerging.  This is definitely doable without creating any sort of weird power creep.  Sorcerers have not been updated at all since the invention of NWN, while the other classes have had multiple revamps and tweaks to make them more interesting.

This was well put, I would love any sort of mechanical function to show some differentiation between one sorcerer from another, doesn't have to be major groundbreaking amazing changes to the class, just something cool that someone can see and say "Hey, thats something I havent seen from other sorcerers (or the ones I know), thats cool".
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apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2024, 09:42:37 PM »
I have no idea who you are, or who you play - and since a CC member seems to have posted in agreement with your sentiments here, I won't say anything else even though I believe  they shouldn't be buffed at all. It's not exactly fair to argue any further with you based on that threat if you aren't accepting other people's logic or opinions.

You've also named this thread after your perspective on the class, and invite criticism based on the very thing you are threating to report people on.

I don't care if you have a contrary opinion to mine. I care if you or others rhetorically hint at the idea that I don't know how to play the class I'm invested in.

I dismiss your points because I don't think they're compelling. I don't see much in the way of support behind them - certainly nothing approaching even a single post in Viktor's behemoth thread.

I would like this thread to be about suggested bloodline traits, spells, abilities. We can talk about the details as pertains to that, but I'm not interested in hearing from the crowd who doesn't think Sorcerer needs anything at all. I think they're wrong, and this thread was made on the assumption that Sorcerer does need adjustment.
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2024, 10:21:47 PM »
Alright let's refocus, this back and forth debate is pointless. We do not have to agree, but it is absolutely fair for all to point out why sorcerers would, or not, need more powers. Our mileage and experience differ and will be biased by our play style and preferences.

Fey and Fiendish bloodlines would likely be the most common ones encountered in the Mists, and if we have to restrict ourselves those would be the ones I'd consider in priority.

Though if you wish the complete list of bloodlines I'd like to see in-game, I had those in mind

Acidic Dragon
Electrical Dragon
Fiery Dragon
Icy Dragon
Fey
Abyssal
Infernal
Celestial
Primordial
Necromantic
Arcane
Fortune (Fate/Divination/Curses)
Serpentine
Eldritch
Blighted (Corrupted Nature)
Verdant (Nature touched, but not Fey)
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apeppertoo

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Re: Apeppertoo's Mega Cool Bloodlines Suggestions Thread
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2024, 10:28:00 PM »
Would it be possible to introduce class features that interact with spells with certain descriptors? Say, for anything with a Fire descriptor, +2 dc, stacking with spell foci? This would be a good way to to keep some bonuses thematic to the bloodline.
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