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Author Topic: OCR Discussion  (Read 460 times)

UrielZarriah

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OCR Discussion
« on: May 13, 2024, 01:08:28 PM »
1st. I am firmly of the opinion that if you play an outcast. You should be accepting of the fact that you are not welcome ICly, in spaces where mundanity occurs. If you play a drow, or a caliban, or another similarly outcast race/class, you should not be sitting in the Barovian outskirts selling things during the day. From a ludic perspective, there would be factions around and forces around that would protest to you being there. Even if your OCR were to be low enough that the NPC's are not triggering their scripts.

Night is another story. And slightly more complicated.

2nd. Very importantly, I am of the certainty that OCR is an OOC metric for an ICly vague system. It's a mechanical representation of how the world should respond. OCR as a system is a simplification and demonstration of a weighted average of NPC responses to reputation and appearance. I think we can agree that that is not an opinion. If not, this discussion will just become a complex bit of nattering over whether OCR as a statistic is IC or OOC.

Those two things said. I would like to propose a few topics of discussion within this topic. And point out a few issues currently with OCR as a system.

1st. I am of the opinion that gear can overly impact and sway the system in both directions. What this means is otherwise honorable people can gain access to dishonorable things like shady merchants, by bulking up their OCR with gear. And outcast people, can gain freedom of movement in society by wearing fancier clothes and lowering their OCR. These occurrences are gamic elements, and don't make sense from a narrative perspective. That shady merchant likely wouldn't trade with someone who doesn't have the reputation to back up their OCR. Likewise, those NPC's wouldn't care that you are dressed in golden threads and nobles clothes, if you had horns wings and a tail. They would likely still be panicking and freaking out.

The first topic of discussion I would like to ask my fellow players, is this an issue to you? And how would you go about fixing this issue if so? If it's not, why is it not an issue to you?


2nd. OCR as a system is largely invisible to the player base. As is the outcasting system. You are unable to as most but not all players, see the overall reactions of the surrounding populace, to the person you examine. And this can affect your RP profusely.

My second topic of discussion for the player base would be, do you find that you can adequately judge how the world is supposed to respond to player characters? Whether your own or others? And how would you represent the OCR data as an IC hint to gauge world responses?

3rd. Outcasting as a whole is ad hoc, formalized for a few races, but it feels like a few players might play characters that should be outcasted as well just for their general behaviors.

Third topic is, would you support a sort of temporary outcast status? Not an banishment which is formal and by law, but outcasting which is informal and by social pressure? Essentially should a PC guard or a trusted native PC see something that should warrant the world responding; Would you support the ability for them to set a temporary outcast status on those people?

I have my own responses to these questions, I will share in a post later in the thread. But I want to hear peoples responses to make sure I'm not putting my mind into an echo-chamber.

myrddraal

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2024, 01:57:24 PM »
OCR can be raised and lowered manually by garda iirc.  If a player does things that would warrant it Iím pretty sure they can be outcasted.

Someone wearing a bunch of influence + gear being made ďmore tolerableĒ feels fine but they should always remember their place and that theyíre just being tolerated.  Though if you wear like, a -4 cha ghoul shell, yeah, they should be chasing you off because you smell like doodoo and youíre wearing rotting flesh.

nerdevar

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2024, 01:58:18 PM »
my hot take is that if your OCR is too low you shouldn't be allowed into underworld areas

triple

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2024, 02:22:33 PM »
So as a drow player, I find both good and bad in the situation. My character cannot hide his skin even if he wanted. But I feel like there should be a system of positive outcasts and negative outcasts. They could be human or actual outcast. Say you have a man who is outcast for murdering, that should get his ocr super high. But an outcast like a drow who has never murdered anyone..well there should be something done. But I want to at the same time state that this is the xenophobic setting. But this may be so..there are caliban npcs that work in the city. It is cannon. I think this should be looked into.

Furthermore, Iím going to raise the concern with the ferry. I canít use it and not because I mechanically canít. But because I rp wise canít. Can we please help the outcasts get from one side to the other? Underground ferry for outcast only? Plz? I did sign up for the ocr but there has to be a better way to get from point a to point b.

Lastly I am told influence gear does nothing the the rp sense for an outcast like a drow or tiefling because they visually look weird. So whatís it for then? To get better prices for merchanting? Iím all for an outcast system and again..these things should be looked into.  Thanks for bringing this up.
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Desident

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2024, 02:31:24 PM »
my hot take is that if your OCR is too low you shouldn't be allowed into underworld areas
Agreed, tbh.

nerdevar

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2024, 02:42:11 PM »
my hot take is that if your OCR is too low you shouldn't be allowed into underworld areas
Agreed, tbh.

elaborating on this.

elder scrolls iv: oblivion had a really neat mechanic. you had fame points and infamy points. as your fame points increased, your reputation with folks that kept their nose clean increased, while your reputation with shady sorts decreased. infamy did the opposite.

that's the main basis for this idea, and since OCR is a combination of physical traits and reputation, i think either barring low OCR characters from underworld areas or requiring them to get some sort of 'pass' if they're actually a shady sort would be cool

zDark Shadowz

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2024, 02:51:41 PM »
What this means is otherwise honorable people can gain access to dishonorable things like shady merchants, by bulking up their OCR with gear.
There's merchants that open up only with bad OCR? Now I feel like the outcast.

On a related tangent, they weren't going to have low OCR discriminate who could pick up the jobs in the drain (even if not everyone should be taking those jobs.)

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=68863.msg791773#msg791773

UrielZarriah

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2024, 03:49:41 PM »
So as a drow player, I find both good and bad in the situation. My character cannot hide his skin even if he wanted. But I feel like there should be a system of positive outcasts and negative outcasts. They could be human or actual outcast. Say you have a man who is outcast for murdering, that should get his ocr super high. But an outcast like a drow who has never murdered anyone..well there should be something done. But I want to at the same time state that this is the xenophobic setting. But this may be so..there are caliban npcs that work in the city. It is cannon. I think this should be looked into.

Furthermore, Iím going to raise the concern with the ferry. I canít use it and not because I mechanically canít. But because I rp wise canít. Can we please help the outcasts get from one side to the other? Underground ferry for outcast only? Plz? I did sign up for the ocr but there has to be a better way to get from point a to point b.

Lastly I am told influence gear does nothing the the rp sense for an outcast like a drow or tiefling because they visually look weird. So whatís it for then? To get better prices for merchanting? Iím all for an outcast system and again..these things should be looked into.  Thanks for bringing this up.

You've engaged with me in an honest fashion, and I appreciate that.

The ferry system is something that requires it's own thread, but I dislike it's instantaneous nature. I personally as a player, wouldn't approve of adding another ferry, without rebalancing the mechanics around the ferry to respect the game world.

As far as "outcast" NPC's in the city that are in the city. They are there because they are established, they are there because presumably, like a player, they have gone through the requisite RP to become accepted members of society. And even then, they are subject to RP scrutiny, I'd imagine. A player can't come into the game with that level of background, as it is considered too "epic in scale/scope."

There is a system of positive and negative outcasts, but it's actually a faction system. Not the OCR system that handles that.

As far as what that gear should be for, I believe a possible solution, would be to split OCR.

Apparent OCR

Observed OCR.

Apparent OCR is your OCR on being looked at, glanced at, and is what NPC's would factor their perception checks on. And wouldn't take account gear or your charisma factor. It would be flat reputation, and base OCR. And would dictate NPC disposition.

While Observed OCR, would be the equivalent of someone looking into your character more deeply. And would take into account gear and the like. It would be used for things like the bank in Vallaki. Or merchants who respect OCR and adjust prices with it. Or job requirements that require OCR.


Ryujin

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2024, 04:49:38 PM »
The ferry system is something that requires it's own thread, but I dislike it's instantaneous nature. I personally as a player, wouldn't approve of adding another ferry, without rebalancing the mechanics around the ferry to respect the game world.


It is a thread that's been had before. The ferry is there for ease of access, and saving time. QOL if you will. Putting in a feature like the caravan system defeats it's entire purpose.
This mainly goes for the Ferries in Barovia, mind you. Those from port/ghastria/blaustein make more sense.

But the consensus, if i recall correctly, was to leave it as is. Because it's the least frustrating.

Aside from that, another statement you made about established outcasts in the city. Player characters have in fact achieved this, yes. Difficult but possible. But it is reliant around the guard faction rather than the base OCR system.
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Alalaurealarialelia

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2024, 10:38:16 PM »
I just wanted to point out that outcast is not the same as outcast, at times.

If you play something like a half drow or Caliban then yes, your OCR will be low enough that with a few pieces of clothing you can pass unnoticed, if you hurry.

Characters with very outlandish traits, you mentioned "horns, tails and wings", will get far higher OCR values, somewhere in the high 20s to low 30s. No clothing in the world will let them lower their OCR into a green value.

At the end of the day OCR is a helpful tool but not the be-all, end-all solution. If, for example, your OCR is red in Barovia, you still need to know, as a player, that not every NPC that ignores your OCR rating is supposed to. In the drain you should be welcome among "green" NPCs, in Degannwy you should not be but the OCR system will not trigger there and you have to know that as a player and in Dvergeheim, most people argue that outcasts should be tolerated, as the dwarves never made an official statement to oppose them, unlike the elves but I honestly can not even tell you if that is 100% correct.

Talis

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2024, 06:33:49 AM »
My probably controversial take is that the OCR/Outcast system has it wrong - at least when it comes to Caliban. They're a base race in tabletop, who are intended to be in a party alongside humans/elves/halflings etc.

They're absolutely supposed to suffer for their higher OCR (5, compared to 3 for Dwarves and Elves - Caliban are closer to the latter than the latter are to humans) and a huge part of their vibe is dealing with mistreatment, racism and prejudice. Most Caliban NPCs choose to live in hiding or are expelled from their communities because of these factors. However, they are also supposed to be able to function with difficulty as part of a Ravenloft party and to subvert the unfairness of their birth by working to improve their OCR in a local community. That achieving a lower OCR is not considered a valid reason to linger in town during the day seems at odds with the setting to me, never mind the rp implications.

IMO they should be able to sit at a table in a tavern alongside their non-Caliban friends and - whilst receiving glares or having to have their drinks bought for them - not be chased out by the guards or murdered by Radu. Their non-Caliban friends should also suffer for that association, which can come out in roleplay as well and potentially make them have to decide if they want to be loyal to their friend or suffer social consequences. Social consequences, not legal.

Right now, the reactions are so extreme that I think this is a real opportunity lost. I am sure you can imagine - or may have experienced - fun rp with the current status quo or scenarios that still tap into this vibe, but I would contend that this is in spite of an unnecessary and not particularly setting accurate barrier rather than because of it. My honest feeling is that by being so puritanical OOC with this we are preventing the Caliban from playing out that fairly key aspect of what they are. You can't really have a Quasimodo or Igor like figure if they're just going to be murdered on sight by the guards and there is no room for individuals to gain even the most basic tolerance.

Basic tolerance that would allow the real prejudice and intolerance of Vallaki or other lands to show. This is evident when it comes to Halflings, Elves and to a lesser extent Dwarves (the latter seem to get treated fairly well in live rp, despite having triple the OCR of halflings.) People often ICly assume 'pitic' are thieves and treat them like children and/or basically subhuman. They often treat 'fey' like they are dangerous creatures who might curse you or bewitch you. This is only possible because both halflings and elves are allowed to share the stage with everyone else and we therefore get opportunities to roleplay out these nuances.

Moreover, making all of the Caliban hang out together in the sewers (rather than it being an IC option to escape prejudice) just means they will likely face less prejudice in their everyday roleplay than they otherwise would. It would work so much better if it was a -reprieve- from the unfairness of the surface rather than the default.

This is just my take on it.


TLDR: Caliban are supposed to suffer unfairly for their birth. The current system takes this to an extreme and severely hinders rather than helps roleplaying this out. IMO.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 06:49:27 AM by Talis »

BraveSirRobin

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2024, 06:58:56 AM »
My probably controversial take is that the OCR/Outcast system has it wrong - at least when it comes to Caliban. They're a base race in tabletop, who are intended to be in a party alongside humans/elves/halflings etc.

They're absolutely supposed to suffer for their higher OCR (5, compared to 3 for Dwarves and Elves - Caliban are closer to the latter than the latter are to humans) and a huge part of their vibe is dealing with mistreatment, racism and prejudice. Most Caliban NPCs choose to live in hiding or are expelled from their communities because of these factors. However, they are also supposed to be able to function with difficulty as part of a Ravenloft party and to subvert the unfairness of their birth by working to improve their OCR in a local community. That achieving a lower OCR is not considered a valid reason to linger in town during the day seems at odds with the setting to me, never mind the rp implications.

IMO they should be able to sit at a table in a tavern alongside their non-Caliban friends and - whilst receiving glares or having to have their drinks bought for them - not be chased out by the guards or murdered by Radu. Their non-Caliban friends should also suffer for that association, which can come out in roleplay as well and potentially make them have to decide if they want to be loyal to their friend or suffer social consequences. Social consequences, not legal.

Right now, the reactions are so extreme that I think this is a real opportunity lost. I am sure you can imagine - or may have experienced - fun rp with the current status quo or scenarios that still tap into this vibe, but I would contend that this is in spite of an unnecessary and not particularly setting accurate barrier rather than because of it. My honest feeling is that by being so puritanical OOC with this we are preventing the Caliban from playing out that fairly key aspect of what they are. You can't really have a Quasimodo or Igor like figure if they're just going to be murdered on sight by the guards and there is no room for individuals to gain even the most basic tolerance.

Basic tolerance that would allow the real prejudice and intolerance of Vallaki or other lands to show. This is evident when it comes to Halflings, Elves and to a lesser extent Dwarves (the latter seem to get treated fairly well in live rp, despite having triple the OCR of halflings.) People often ICly assume 'pitic' are thieves and treat them like children and/or basically subhuman. They often treat 'fey' like they are dangerous creatures who might curse you or bewitch you. This is only possible because both halflings and elves are allowed to share the stage with everyone else and we therefore get opportunities to roleplay out these nuances.

Moreover, making all of the Caliban hang out together in the sewers (rather than it being an IC option to escape prejudice) just means they will likely face less prejudice in their everyday roleplay than they otherwise would. It would work so much better if it was a -reprieve- from the unfairness of the surface rather than the default.

This is just my take on it.


TLDR: Caliban are supposed to suffer unfairly for their birth. The current system takes this to an extreme and severely hinders rather than helps roleplaying this out. IMO.

Not that controversial. I agree with it entirely, -- Which means it probably is, controversial, to everyone else. Prejudice and discrimination are excellent roleplaying tools, and the OCR system less encourages that, and more encourages factionalism because it limits your exposure with such extreme consequences. Even in Dementlieu, where this sort of thing should in theory be possible, it's hampered by making the roleplaying center of the region (its' equivalent of the Outskirts) forcing Caliban to move along, and not linger.

The only place where Caliban characters can regularly exchange with non-Caliban is the Mist Camp/Keep of the Dyad, which isn't a good stage to explore these themes as it's typically kinder to them than even the Drain, which has a thuggish underworld hierarchy.

RedMoney

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Re: OCR Discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2024, 07:28:57 AM »
My probably controversial take is that the OCR/Outcast system has it wrong - at least when it comes to Caliban. They're a base race in tabletop, who are intended to be in a party alongside humans/elves/halflings etc.

They're absolutely supposed to suffer for their higher OCR (5, compared to 3 for Dwarves and Elves - Caliban are closer to the latter than the latter are to humans) and a huge part of their vibe is dealing with mistreatment, racism and prejudice. Most Caliban NPCs choose to live in hiding or are expelled from their communities because of these factors. However, they are also supposed to be able to function with difficulty as part of a Ravenloft party and to subvert the unfairness of their birth by working to improve their OCR in a local community. That achieving a lower OCR is not considered a valid reason to linger in town during the day seems at odds with the setting to me, never mind the rp implications.

IMO they should be able to sit at a table in a tavern alongside their non-Caliban friends and - whilst receiving glares or having to have their drinks bought for them - not be chased out by the guards or murdered by Radu. Their non-Caliban friends should also suffer for that association, which can come out in roleplay as well and potentially make them have to decide if they want to be loyal to their friend or suffer social consequences. Social consequences, not legal.

Right now, the reactions are so extreme that I think this is a real opportunity lost. I am sure you can imagine - or may have experienced - fun rp with the current status quo or scenarios that still tap into this vibe, but I would contend that this is in spite of an unnecessary and not particularly setting accurate barrier rather than because of it. My honest feeling is that by being so puritanical OOC with this we are preventing the Caliban from playing out that fairly key aspect of what they are. You can't really have a Quasimodo or Igor like figure if they're just going to be murdered on sight by the guards and there is no room for individuals to gain even the most basic tolerance.

Basic tolerance that would allow the real prejudice and intolerance of Vallaki or other lands to show. This is evident when it comes to Halflings, Elves and to a lesser extent Dwarves (the latter seem to get treated fairly well in live rp, despite having triple the OCR of halflings.) People often ICly assume 'pitic' are thieves and treat them like children and/or basically subhuman. They often treat 'fey' like they are dangerous creatures who might curse you or bewitch you. This is only possible because both halflings and elves are allowed to share the stage with everyone else and we therefore get opportunities to roleplay out these nuances.

Moreover, making all of the Caliban hang out together in the sewers (rather than it being an IC option to escape prejudice) just means they will likely face less prejudice in their everyday roleplay than they otherwise would. It would work so much better if it was a -reprieve- from the unfairness of the surface rather than the default.

This is just my take on it.


TLDR: Caliban are supposed to suffer unfairly for their birth. The current system takes this to an extreme and severely hinders rather than helps roleplaying this out. IMO.

Not that controversial. I agree with it entirely, -- Which means it probably is, controversial, to everyone else. Prejudice and discrimination are excellent roleplaying tools, and the OCR system less encourages that, and more encourages factionalism because it limits your exposure with such extreme consequences. Even in Dementlieu, where this sort of thing should in theory be possible, it's hampered by making the roleplaying center of the region (its' equivalent of the Outskirts) forcing Caliban to move along, and not linger.

The only place where Caliban characters can regularly exchange with non-Caliban is the Mist Camp/Keep of the Dyad, which isn't a good stage to explore these themes as it's typically kinder to them than even the Drain, which has a thuggish underworld hierarchy.


I think this is a good point overall, and something like a caliban registry or city dwelling license would be a good way for the Garda to extort calibans out of money and create more outcast RP outside of "rawr caliban bad".
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