Author Topic: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread  (Read 1933 times)

bloodless

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2024, 08:15:14 AM »
Devs, please, we have literally had the opposite be done several times over to accommodate outcast access to dungeons and content, don't start walking the other way now.

I feel like arguing against making something more difficult for an outcast because past concessions were given is the sort of precedential slippery slope that inherently discourages further concessions.
It's not "something", it's literally the same thing - access to dungeons.

MAB77

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2024, 11:54:54 AM »
Disclaimer, it's the player speaking here, not the dev team. I am thoroughly uninvolved with anything related to Tejeda, I have no stakes in the matter of accessing Tejeda nor am I against the idea of an alternate route for outcasts, but I can offer the following perspective.

The server rules have to be fair for all. In-game situations do not.

So you have an accursed island known to be plagued by a zombie curse. Everyone but a single captain gives it a wide berth and wants nothing to do with it. Said captain happens to be from a location that has every reasons to dislike outcasts and to not take them on his ship. An entirely logical situation from an in-game perspective. That's tough luck for outcasts, but that's seemingly how it was intended. That's entirely that dungeon's developer's prerogative to make it so. That captain is not the only NPC that refuses to deal with outcasts either. It should not come as a surprise that such situations exist.

I of course agree with the notion that a dungeon should be accessible to all players, but never that equal conditions should be offered to all races, nor that any dungeons should be reached quickly. Therefore I find it perfectly fine that the provided alternative be a way through the Mists. More dangerous and hazardous, longer to reach and certainly unreliable, but there nonetheless, quite manageable by a level 12-14 party, and the seed for an entertaining trip if done in a RP manner.

That does not mean other options will not be explored, but what we already have works well enough. And what comes next could be inverted too, could be a dungeon location that a caliban guide only takes outcasts too, forcing others on the long walk around.
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MAB

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ProfanityTM

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2024, 02:03:01 PM »
Lock/trap dcs could be upped a little to ensure rogues/beguilers are involved, not that a multi skilled wiz can handle the lot instead.

Lock/trap DCs need to go up, but even if they do, they won't ensure rogue/beguillers are involved. Trap variety and placement has to be upped because as it stands, said multiskilled wizard can already tank them. All upping them does is make said wiz have to put on their trapping gear for it, and prepare an extra spell or two.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2024, 02:59:54 PM »
It's not meant for high levels, so what do you think is a reasonable number of OL/DT for lv 12-14 to achieve? I'd rather not have dungeon numbers to be inflated due to tailoring/loot gear, it gatekeeps dungeons behind who has wealth and who doesn't, along with who in the party is primarily buying in with their asset & expenses commitment just to be a key.

Imo anything above (DC 40 Lock/trap) is high.

I'm a little bothered that there are OCR issues with accessing the new covid island. We all know people would and did smuggle across borders for various stupid reasons facilitated by people looking for a quick buck, not to mention everything other people left behind would be there for the looting. There would and should be illegal runners travelling to and from, putting a risk at spreading the plagues beyond the island. It's genuinely real and proven, expected human behaviour.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2024, 03:07:33 PM »
It's not meant for high levels, so what do you think is a reasonable number of OL/DT for lv 12-14 to achieve? I'd rather not have dungeon numbers to be inflated due to tailoring/loot gear, it gatekeeps dungeons behind who has wealth and who doesn't, along with who in the party is primarily buying in with their asset & expenses commitment just to be a key.

Imo anything above (DC 40 Lock/trap) is high.

I'm a little bothered that there are OCR issues with accessing the new covid island. We all know people would and did smuggle across borders for various stupid reasons facilitated by people looking for a quick buck, not to mention everything other people left behind would be there for the looting. There would and should be illegal runners travelling to and from, putting a risk at spreading the plagues beyond the island. It's genuinely real and proven, expected human behaviour.

I'm fine with having specialized lock and trap DCs that value utility characters. There's always the option of taking the damage and smacking the chest instead. Though, I'd have to ask; If your idea of the alternative for Outcasts is finding a shifty smuggler, what sort of premium are you willing to pay against the base price of the normal transit vendor? If it cost a hundred gold, are you willing to pay a thousand?

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2024, 03:17:41 PM »
Sure. Or its the return trip that's the one that'll cost, if someone doesn't want to leave via the mistway. (In this instance, this makes the mistway viability to escape much nicer, rather than trying to use it for an entrance)

Similar to Perfidus, domains don't necessarily need to have a way currently open from the mistways to the domain, to be able to go from the domain and escape into the mistways.

People will be selling loot in MC anyway.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2024, 03:20:03 PM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2024, 05:28:15 AM »
Sure. Or its the return trip that's the one that'll cost, if someone doesn't want to leave via the mistway. (In this instance, this makes the mistway viability to escape much nicer, rather than trying to use it for an entrance) [...]

This makes sense. I see no reason why a captain wouldn't look at the opportunity to go "I hate outcasts! Wait, they want to go to a plague island? Maybe they'll die there, you can come." and then, "... Wait, you're alive? I'm not taking you back lmao you can stay here."

Besides, it costs nothing to go there right now.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 05:30:00 AM by ProfanityTM »

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2024, 06:18:25 AM »
Besides, it costs nothing to go there right now.

It doesn't? Why are we arguing over whether or not this guy will take some smelly mutants to a plague island, when this dude's taking people to a plague island FOR FREE? Let's back this train up on the tracks a moment.

MAB77

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2024, 06:30:55 AM »
There are plenty of potential reasons why the captain would not take outcasts on his ship at all, or why no other captains would approach an accursed island altogether. Racism and hatred in themselves are often not rational emotions. Perhaps the captain has a trauma related to past events. Perhaps it cost him the life of a family member or made him lost something that made him say "never again", that doesn't mean he'd be evil to the point of abandoning people on this island. If he was that kind of man, the dark powers would possibly take an interest in his case and that might mean troubles even for non-outcasts.

Again, I'm not saying no change is coming, it is being discussed among devs. I understand also why as players you'd like outcasts to have the same ease of reaching this island, but you are not entitled to easy solutions for all situations. As devs we will purposefully create situations where it is more difficult for outcasts to better reflect the setting. It's just one of these. It's not a punishment, you signed up for these selecting your race. As it stands right now, the situation costs nothing to your character, outcasts are not nerfed, the island is optional content you can skip, and there still is a way for them to visit the island if you insist.
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MAB

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MAB77

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2024, 06:54:11 AM »
PS, if you ask me my solution would be that no ship would go to Tejeda at all, I'd change all boats to work like caravans, with each trips to or from Ghastria or Blaustein with a 5% chance of shipwrecking on Tejeda, leaving the mistways as the most reliable way to reach the island for all.
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MAB

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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2024, 06:59:50 AM »
PS, if you ask me my solution would be that no ship would go to Tejeda at all, I'd change all boats to work like caravans, with each trips to or from Ghastria or Blaustein with a 5% chance of shipwrecking on Tejeda, leaving the mistways as the most reliable way to reach the island for all.

Yo I like this. Can we get a 5% chance for caravans to get attacked and overturned in the Mists, spawning you randomly in a Mist area and forcing you to mistwalk back

ProfanityTM

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2024, 08:54:49 AM »
Besides, it costs nothing to go there right now.

It doesn't? Why are we arguing over whether or not this guy will take some smelly mutants to a plague island, when this dude's taking people to a plague island FOR FREE? Let's back this train up on the tracks a moment.

It's free. The Captain was hired by the University to take brave adventurers to the island in order to help them study plagues and diseases, hence, your fare is being paid for by the University. The Captain even has a healer on-site to heal disease and wounds, for free. The only condition in which you're denied normally (outside of OCR) is if you're diseased, but that is handled... For free.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2024, 09:46:50 AM »
Besides, it costs nothing to go there right now.

It doesn't? Why are we arguing over whether or not this guy will take some smelly mutants to a plague island, when this dude's taking people to a plague island FOR FREE? Let's back this train up on the tracks a moment.

It's free. The Captain was hired by the University to take brave adventurers to the island in order to help them study plagues and diseases, hence, your fare is being paid for by the University. The Captain even has a healer on-site to heal disease and wounds, for free. The only condition in which you're denied normally (outside of OCR) is if you're diseased, but that is handled... For free.

Filthy. This server needs more gold sinks. Maybe the stipulation about Caliban has to do with the fact the Université de Dementlieu doesn't want to be associated with them, in a world where appearances are everything. Can you imagine the scandal?

ProfanityTM

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2024, 10:05:41 AM »
Filthy. This server needs more gold sinks. Maybe the stipulation about Caliban has to do with the fact the Université de Dementlieu doesn't want to be associated with them, in a world where appearances are everything. Can you imagine the scandal?

I'd say they shouldn't charge to take them there, but charge them to bring them back - or, let them take the mistway. I know I'd take the opportunity to dump a malformed monster in some plague island if I were some horribly haughty, racist frenchman.

Rainor

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2024, 10:29:59 AM »
You know, really, there's nothing ICLY stopping any player from just buying/building their own ships to sail to these locations.

There's my take, provide an alternative that isn't the mistway, or let the players provide their own transport and tell the captain to screw off when they won't even ferry a groups whole party.

Really, there's characters out there that can kill Strahd or worse ten times over. They can and should be able to get their own boat if they really wanted to.

Maiyannah

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2024, 10:38:39 AM »
You know, really, there's nothing ICLY stopping any player from just buying/building their own ships to sail to these locations.

There's my take, provide an alternative that isn't the mistway, or let the players provide their own transport and tell the captain to screw off when they won't even ferry a groups whole party.

Really, there's characters out there that can kill Strahd or worse ten times over. They can and should be able to get their own boat if they really wanted to.

Even if we grant your premise, "defeat powerful monster" does not contain skills transferable to "being a shipwright capable of making a seaworthy vessel"
Currently:
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Emmanuelle Skyshard - Ezran escapee from Hazlan

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Desident

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2024, 10:40:42 AM »
Gimme a level 6 class feature for rogues. They can interact with a placeable near these spots that allows them to escort a party to new places. Represents them juking the system and using boats, hidden trails, etc. Fits nicely into a smuggler theme for them. Unlocks a transition their party can use for a minute.

Or... To simplify it, a Search check transition if you wanna be goofy. Like a boat hidden. In some bushes.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 10:43:09 AM by Desident »

Rainor

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2024, 11:34:21 AM »
You know, really, there's nothing ICLY stopping any player from just buying/building their own ships to sail to these locations.

There's my take, provide an alternative that isn't the mistway, or let the players provide their own transport and tell the captain to screw off when they won't even ferry a groups whole party.

Really, there's characters out there that can kill Strahd or worse ten times over. They can and should be able to get their own boat if they really wanted to.

Even if we grant your premise, "defeat powerful monster" does not contain skills transferable to "being a shipwright capable of making a seaworthy vessel"

But one should be able to become that capable, a reminder that woodworking and carpentry are skills that a character can master.

Or, how about I put it another way. Why can't an experienced enough druid just shapeshift and fly/swim somewhere? Or a mage do some form of wizardry to get there, and skip dealing with the locals entirely?

myrddraal

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2024, 11:39:04 AM »
You know, really, there's nothing ICLY stopping any player from just buying/building their own ships to sail to these locations.

There's my take, provide an alternative that isn't the mistway, or let the players provide their own transport and tell the captain to screw off when they won't even ferry a groups whole party.

Really, there's characters out there that can kill Strahd or worse ten times over. They can and should be able to get their own boat if they really wanted to.

Presumably there is a naval arm of the gendarme that would in fact stop you from just building and sailing boats on their waters.  Mostly because who knows what you might bring in if that was allowed to just happen.  Smugglers, human trafficking, ferrying in disease, etc.

Maiyannah

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2024, 11:50:14 AM »
But one should be able to become that capable, a reminder that woodworking and carpentry are skills that a character can master.

Or, how about I put it another way. Why can't an experienced enough druid just shapeshift and fly/swim somewhere? Or a mage do some form of wizardry to get there, and skip dealing with the locals entirely?

Dark Powers checks, for one.
If they wanted you to be able to freely traverse the core the mists wouldn't be a thing.
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Emmanuelle Skyshard - Ezran escapee from Hazlan

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Rainor

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2024, 11:52:12 AM »
You know, really, there's nothing ICLY stopping any player from just buying/building their own ships to sail to these locations.

There's my take, provide an alternative that isn't the mistway, or let the players provide their own transport and tell the captain to screw off when they won't even ferry a groups whole party.

Really, there's characters out there that can kill Strahd or worse ten times over. They can and should be able to get their own boat if they really wanted to.

Presumably there is a naval arm of the gendarme that would in fact stop you from just building and sailing boats on their waters.  Mostly because who knows what you might bring in if that was allowed to just happen.  Smugglers, human trafficking, ferrying in disease, etc.

With the amount of crime on land in Lucine, I imagine there's also a thriving criminal business out on the waters too, that isn't being addressed as an alternative. With the extreme poverty, there are 100% captains out there that will smuggle some caliban happily if given a few pouches of coin.
Or, go to a Ghastrian sailor. Tell them, here's a ton of imported food that has taste. It's all yours if you transport me and my friends, no questions asked.

Also does not address legal travel. There are characters that have successfully managed to purchase their own ships with a DM event. Imagine owning a ship with no issues, and being told you can't sail it anywhere.

Rainor

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2024, 11:54:26 AM »
But one should be able to become that capable, a reminder that woodworking and carpentry are skills that a character can master.

Or, how about I put it another way. Why can't an experienced enough druid just shapeshift and fly/swim somewhere? Or a mage do some form of wizardry to get there, and skip dealing with the locals entirely?

Dark Powers checks, for one.
If they wanted you to be able to freely traverse the core the mists wouldn't be a thing.

It's... A dark powers check to use druid's shapeshift, or to cast a non-evil spell?

Also, you're telling me noname captain can freely sail through the mist between all these locations, but a highly experienced adventurer just can't figure it out without going so evil they risk getting their own domain?

UrielZarriah

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2024, 12:21:44 PM »
But one should be able to become that capable, a reminder that woodworking and carpentry are skills that a character can master.

Or, how about I put it another way. Why can't an experienced enough druid just shapeshift and fly/swim somewhere? Or a mage do some form of wizardry to get there, and skip dealing with the locals entirely?

Dark Powers checks, for one.
If they wanted you to be able to freely traverse the core the mists wouldn't be a thing.

It's... A dark powers check to use druid's shapeshift, or to cast a non-evil spell?

Also, you're telling me noname captain can freely sail through the mist between all these locations, but a highly experienced adventurer just can't figure it out without going so evil they risk getting their own domain?
The powers check is representative of you gaining the interest of the dark powers by doing something that is notable, and worthy of examination for it's hubris or within the wheelhouse of being worthy of punishment for it's notable cruelty. It's not just a rote morality pool check.

Traversing the mists is a difficult task. One which requires known routes, trained crew, to accomplish with mundane skills.

Traversing the mists, and travelling the core solo would draw their eyes relatively fast.

Rainor

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2024, 12:33:44 PM »
Spoiler: show
But one should be able to become that capable, a reminder that woodworking and carpentry are skills that a character can master.

Or, how about I put it another way. Why can't an experienced enough druid just shapeshift and fly/swim somewhere? Or a mage do some form of wizardry to get there, and skip dealing with the locals entirely?

Dark Powers checks, for one.
If they wanted you to be able to freely traverse the core the mists wouldn't be a thing.


It's... A dark powers check to use druid's shapeshift, or to cast a non-evil spell?

Also, you're telling me noname captain can freely sail through the mist between all these locations, but a highly experienced adventurer just can't figure it out without going so evil they risk getting their own domain?

Quote
The powers check is representative of you gaining the interest of the dark powers by doing something that is notable, and worthy of examination for it's hubris or within the wheelhouse of being worthy of punishment for it's notable cruelty. It's not just a rote morality pool check.

Traversing the mists is a difficult task. One which requires known routes, trained crew, to accomplish with mundane skills.

Traversing the mists, and travelling the core solo would draw their eyes relatively fast.

Okay.
Except many players do traverse the mists, or do other, much more incredible things that would draw eyes, but do not.

Also, in other words, in order for an outcast to reach these dungeons, they'd have to risk a powers check? Because, without alternative methods, they'd... Have to travel through the mists.
(Which, again, is something many already do without any powers checks on the server.)

Im being told that it's an extremely incredible thing for an adventurer to travel a trade route between two domains, but it's mundane to walk through the Mists of Death to get to almost teleport to where you want to go.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 01:17:47 PM by Rainor »

Desident

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Re: Plague Island Tejeda Feedback thread
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2024, 12:53:00 PM »
Travelling the mists would draw Dark powers... So the intended solution... is to make it so the only way for outcasts to get there... is to... mist walk...