Author Topic: Yuan-Ti Pureblood  (Read 1590 times)

Talis

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2024, 12:28:17 PM »
snip

Wistfully stares at Kobolds, Goblins and Pixies.

MAB77

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2024, 12:32:56 PM »
Furthermore, it is not our custom to tone down PC races per se. Features that cannot be implemented are usually dropped and not replaced, with the remaining features replicated as closely as possible to the original. But here even if we dropped the humanoid levels, you are still left with a race we consider unsuitable for PC play.

A breed of lesser yuan-ti that could be easier to justify as a PC race would be the Extaminaars of Forgotten Realms. But that's a rather marginal and lackluster subrace which is partly why we left them out when we last reviewed the roster of PC races. Dropping the features that can't be replicated they'd look like this in NWN. I doubt many would play them, if at all.

  • -2 STR, +2 DEX
  • Lowlight Vision
  • +2 ST vs poison
  • Spell-like ability: Charm Person or Animal 3x day*

* IF it could be made to work on snakes only.
Because they'd retain the bonus feat and skils of humans, they'd be ECL +1.
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Wilkins1952

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2024, 12:51:42 PM »
Ignoring the stats and even the monsterous aspects (Of which personally I don't think that should be a consideration given that we have far more monsterous things. Than greenish skinned people with serpentine features. And stats can be adjusted to suit NWN anyway. Something that has been done considerably in the past with both races and classes to a large degree in certain cases.)

 The fact of the matter is the Yuan-ti offer a RP avenue that can't be explored on POTM currently. Sseth is a god with a lot of very unique worshiping aspects. The culture of the Yuan-Ti and personality of the purebloods as lessers in society. The fact that they are unique biologically being obligate carnivores. (Something that no other race we have on POTM currently is.) Is also an incredibly Unique RP angle to explore and uncover. It would also prove to be a potential interesting conflict even within Yuan-Ti races in terms of religion given that some could come from a time when Merrshaulk was the name and aspect of Sseth. All of these along with the demon worshipping and the fact that many Yuan-Ti live on the surface in Toril leads to a race that could add a considerable amount of RP weight to the server and be a good addition to the Gothic Horror setting as they explore all aspects of their life in this new world that is vastly different from the one of their home.

The Extaminaars are a good option though as well given they are functionally identical to Yuan-Ti purebloods in all but stats. In essence they are Yuan-Ti that were members of House Extaminos. I could see justification for extending that to allow them to come from any house as a way to give playable option to explore that RP.

As for the default Yuan-Ti being purely MPCs I disagree with this as it portrays the race as very much one dimensional. Something we as a community should be trying to avoid. Characters should be complex individuals as that makes for richer RP all around. Gothic Horror is as much Romanticism as it is Body Horror as it is Psychological Horror. Often blending these aspects together. "Let the Right one in." Is a prime example of this. if you have ever seen it.
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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2024, 05:14:30 AM »
Here are my last thoughts on the matter. I hope it becomes discussed with other Devs.

You can explore those same RP themes with several other races. For instance, nothing prevents you to play a tiefling that takes on after a serpentine demon, or even a human that'd like to gain the traits of a yuan-ti (something that could be done by failing power checks) and/or admires Serpentine deities/demons. If truly it is the roleplay you want, you have plenty of avenues and do not need the mechanical boons of the yuan-ti pureblood.

Again, I'm not against the Yuan-Ti as an AMPC, but certainly not as a PC. They are a monstrous race and any exception to this norm should be overwhelmingly rare and restricted to NPC status IMHO. Their mechanical traits are furthermore problematic. We're looking at a non-outcast race, starting with a bonus 4 humanoid levels (not currently supported for PCs), with better ability modifiers and stronger spell resistance than the drow, that also gains bonus feats and bonus skill points, for the same ECL than Drow. That is an excellent reason not to go through with that.

1. Just as someone can select Half-Drow and find the same "RP Themes" As a pure-blooded Drow, it truly is not the same in the end. Yuan-Ti culture and actually being that race gives new possible RP that, while yes you can try and mimick, doesn't actually fill the same role as the given race.

2. Yuan-Ti are not near the level needed for AMPC when you compare to what we currently have; Undead, Lycanthropes, etc. I once more use the Tanarukk and Draconic Ancestry as example. Even when looked at personality wise, this is also a personality that any PC can have, I do not understand their mentality/personality should be reserved for AMPCs.

3. As pointed out before a few times, the 4 humanoid levels have been ignored in the past, and can also be ignored in this context as well.


Furthermore, it is not our custom to tone down PC races per se. Features that cannot be implemented are usually dropped and not replaced, with the remaining features replicated as closely as possible to the original. But here even if we dropped the humanoid levels, you are still left with a race we consider unsuitable for PC play.

A breed of lesser yuan-ti that could be easier to justify as a PC race would be the Extaminaars of Forgotten Realms. But that's a rather marginal and lackluster subrace which is partly why we left them out when we last reviewed the roster of PC races. Dropping the features that can't be replicated they'd look like this in NWN. I doubt many would play them, if at all.

  • -2 STR, +2 DEX
  • Lowlight Vision
  • +2 ST vs poison
  • Spell-like ability: Charm Person or Animal 3x day*

* IF it could be made to work on snakes only.
Because they'd retain the bonus feat and skils of humans, they'd be ECL +1.

These statblock is rather bad for ECL+1, as it's comparable to Xeph which receive no ECL boost.

MAB77

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2024, 08:00:50 AM »
Yes, they are bad. No question here. It's the reason we did not go forward with it when EO and I revised the roster of available races. I still don't see a value in it myself, but if yuan-ti RP is really what you seek, that would be an option and mechanics should not hold you back.

Anyway, we are looking at different options here. We'll let you know in due time if it pans out.
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McNastea

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2024, 08:25:20 AM »
It's not the same as draconian ancestry by any means. They get quite a few spell like abilities, a shape-shifting and a lot of spell resistance. +2 ECL doesn't sound like enough to me but I think it's a cool idea. Also I'm not looking at nor familiar enough with other +2 ECL races to give that a fair comparison off the top of my head but there it is anyway xD
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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2024, 01:43:14 PM »
After discussion within the team, we'll add the Tainted One template for humans from certain settings. The 3.5 stats are available here.

Desident

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2024, 11:02:37 PM »
While I would prefer a yuan-ti be added over this, I think that if the 'template' is added, I think +2 ECL is just a bit too much and I think it should instead be +1 at most, and want to get the discussion going before too much effort in implementing them is invested.

Comparing the stats of the Tainted Ones to the six other supported subraces/template we can see some trends.


Edit: The attached image is a bit long, so you may need to scroll to the right to see the last bit.

Spell Resistance: The biggest reason I can see for giving it a really high ECL, is it's spell resistance which is in roughly the same power level of most all of the other comparable SR's to start, but is ultimately -roughly- 69% the potency of the others by the end, barring Xakhun who have no ECL. By level 18, Xakhun and Tainted Ones are matched in SR, and at +2 ECL that's where Tainted ones STOP while Xakhun get 2 more levels and 2 more points of SR.

Poison Bite: I -assume- and thus could be wrong, this will be treated like an infinite Melee range ability prompting a Fort save to apply a realistic DC 9-15 CON poison?. This... is okay? The application can be spammed, but this is... pretty useless in PvE and not anything to talk about in PvP. It doesn't work on undead at all, which is such a healthy chunk of the enemy base, and really after seeing how high the con saves are on most other things, making a DC 12 (rough guess) average Fort Save for poison... is... really not going to affect anything. Most fights are over so quick it won't affect anything, and if the fight even LASTS long enough for the monster to make the secondary save... that con damage probably isn't gonna make a difference, since you're clearly not doing very well in the fight to have it last that long.

Immunity to Snake vemon: I assume this will just become Immunity to all poison, which is nice. A solid racial ability. Which Duergar and Frost Dwarves get as +1 ECL characters.

Poison Once a day: Basing this -solely- off the Poison spell the arkalseif hotlink connects to, I assume this is a DC 10 + 1/2 CL + Wis modifier for 1d10 Con+1d10 Con poison a minute later. Potentially -lethal- and I can see this being a big reason to try and keep it a +2 ECL, and since it presumably scales off CHA, since it references 'cast as if a sorcerer of the tainted one's level' as a CHA build could -really- juice this up and cause problems in PvP and PvE for the non-poison immune enemies. This would be the highest level per day spell any subrace/template has gotten so far.

Snake Polymorph 3 time a day: Nothing to write home about in any meaningful sense beyond level 2, beyond roleplay reasons. The server doesn't support the scent ability, let alone climb, or swim speeds. It has a VERY low dc poison. on bite, which... at least is easier to apply than spamming a useable feature, but the time it'll take for it to make any difference the thing is either already dead or you're probably dead for fighting as a snake. This is largely an RP tool, and shouldn't be considered when balancing mechanically.

Alertness: +2 Spot/Listen is... just worse in ever way to what all elves get by default, in terms of sensory skills, most of which are +0 ECL.

To summarize:
Spell Resistance is the worst of all SR playable subraces/templates that we have, including the +0 ECL Xakhun. Poison Bite is... something, though ultimately weak on this server in particular due to the low Fort save potential and sheer number of poison immune enemies. Venom immunity is only present on +1 ECL races. Poison 1/day is good, but it's not enough to carry from a solid +1 ECL to +2, IMHO. The Snake polymorph is an RP tool, and should'nt add anything to the 'power' of the class, since the things it gets that are unique to being a snake are largely not able to be represented by the game engine, (slithering into small places, climb/swim speen, etc.). Alertness is a nearly stock standard level skill buff for SO many subraces and base races, that it shouldn't really be valued much at all in evaluating its ECL.

To be continued, with Yuan-ti Pureblood and why mechanically they aren't particularly out of the current range of other subraces, once I take a short break from crunching numbers and spreadsheets!




« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 06:51:26 AM by Desident »

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2024, 11:34:06 PM »
Spell-like abilities on creatures will generally use charisma modifiers for the spellcasting, but unfortunately the poison is a psionic ability with a specific DC modifier written. It'll have caster level equal to their character level, but a DC of 13 + con modifier.

Maybe it'll be fun for a barbarian boosting the DC, with that polymorph -> viper being used as a self-heal, and they can mystic rage up for better SR (wont stack though)

MAB77

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2024, 07:15:43 AM »
ECL +2 seems adequate to me. What matters is what the template gains over the base race not how it compares to other races. Tainted yuan-ti retain all the perks of the humans, the bonus skill points and bonus feat. For the price of 2 levels, the tainted one is then given 6 racial features. That spell resistance still is worth a +1 ECL alone. Not all spellcasters you'll meet will be 20th level ones. The other +1 is for all the rest. Up to you to decide if it is worth it or not, but you will soon have the option of roleplaying a proper yuan-ti breed.
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Desident

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2024, 04:37:30 PM »
Is there a sort of metric you use to evaluate the quality of the racial features to ensure that it is in-line with the power of comparable other subraces?

EO

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2024, 04:59:20 PM »
While I would prefer a yuan-ti be added over this, I think that if the 'template' is added, I think +2 ECL is just a bit too much and I think it should instead be +1 at most, and want to get the discussion going before too much effort in implementing them is invested.

Comparing the stats of the Tainted Ones to the six other supported subraces/template we can see some trends.


...

As MAB mentioned, you forgot to include Quick to Master in your Tainted One entry. Also, out of curiosity, why showcase only 6 of the many ECL or non-ECL subraces? What were the criteria? And finally, it's a template, not a subrace, though, like blooded one, it's restricted to one racial type, so it's a pseudo-subrace I guess.

Is there a sort of metric you use to evaluate the quality of the racial features to ensure that it is in-line with the power of comparable other subraces?

We adhere, for the most part, to the PnP level adjustments for ECL calculation. If you're interested, they go into detail in the second chapter of Savage Species on how a level adjustment is determined.

Desident

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2024, 06:25:10 PM »
Im compiling a larger post on the whole discussion in a new thread as I realized this is somewhat of a derailment. But I included those 6 as those are all the races that include spell resistance, for clarity on what I suspected was the main culprit of demanding such a large ecl.

I didn't include quick to master or skilled because the template does not grant them. They are included on my entry for standard human and other human base sub races. This is considered a template, so I did not include it for consistency to the other 90 potential PC available racial variants you support. Templates don't include the base race additions, but subraces do, it's simply my way of coping with categorization in a way that can properly display both templates that have specific races and those that don't. Its already a thing my sheet has to deal with in regards to the several identical or near identical variants of base bases like Shiye elf, sidhelien, shadow elf, etc.

But I'll be posting some time soon in greater detail on this topic in a new thread. I do appreciate your mentioning Savage species, as it will help me in my research for the topic immensely.

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2024, 08:32:52 PM »
We've implemented the Yuan-Ti Tainted One template. You can find more information on the template here. For now, unfortunately, they won't have access to their spell-like abilities, those will be added with the next hak update.

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2024, 09:11:56 PM »
Disappointing we got this down-watered version that doesn't fit the theme.

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2024, 09:23:56 PM »
Disappointing we got this down-watered version that doesn't fit the theme.

Pureblood being ECL 11 (or 6 if we discount their monster levels), they were never on the table. Purebloods are not meant for player characters in DnD (only one book lists them as a playable option, at the aforementioned ECL 11).

Edit: Just to clarify that's the 3E version. The 3.5 is somewhat toned down mechanically but still beyond what we'd want to add. Tainted Ones are presented in the majority of books as the best option for characters.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 09:32:59 PM by EO »

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2024, 09:46:21 PM »
Disappointing we got this down-watered version that doesn't fit the theme.

Pureblood being ECL 11 (or 6 if we discount their monster levels), they were never on the table. Purebloods are not meant for player characters in DnD (only one book lists them as a playable option, at the aforementioned ECL 11).

Edit: Just to clarify that's the 3E version. The 3.5 is somewhat toned down mechanically but still beyond what we'd want to add. Tainted Ones are presented in the majority of books as the best option for characters.

Debunked this already in the thread, guess it wasn't read.

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2024, 10:03:07 PM »

Debunked this already in the thread, guess it wasn't read.

Your feedback was read, and we took it into account, otherwise this template would not even have been added, but we're not obligated to accept all suggestions. The team didn't feel they were a suitable player race because of their lore and statistics. Not to mention how our disguise rules don't support disguising as another race, which prevents them from acting as infiltrators.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 10:06:42 PM by EO »

Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2024, 10:47:21 PM »
ECL 2 is harsh if you ask me. I wouldn't play one. I guess CON is a cool stat and the spell resistance is nice but... I think CON is overvalued. Sure every class uses it but enh in a point buy setting it becomes excessive after 14 imho

Would reduce ecl to +1. Solid race otherwise

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Re: Yuan-Ti Pureblood
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2024, 10:27:21 AM »
Disappointing we got this down-watered version that doesn't fit the theme.

I am curious, what is it you feel doesn't fit the theme here? What is it you feel is the theme anyway? The theme is whatever you want it to be for your character so long as it is a concept that meshes well with Ravenloft in general. That makes up for endless RP possibilities. The main difference between Tainted Ones and Purebloods is their place in yuan-ti society and their stats. Stats are irrelevant to the theme and there is nothing you would do as a pureblood PC that you cannot accomplish with a tainted one roleplay-wise. As a servant cut off from its masters, tainted ones are free to do as they will. They may attempt to attain positions of powers themselves in a manner befitting a yuan-ti, they may try to create a snake deities cult, they may even continue their work for the potential return of their masters or, to the contrary, prepare against their return. That is pretty much what a lone pureblood PC options would be as well once misted. You wanted yuan-ti roleplay, you have it. You have your theme.

On a purely mechanical level, tainted ones are better suited to our module setup where templates are involved and balance is concerned. I strongly suspect that 3e creators also felt that the pureblood template was too strong for PCs and that is why they made the more nuanced tainted one template. It would not have been required otherwise.
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