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Author Topic: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings  (Read 1649 times)

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2024, 12:07:36 AM »
I would change the spawn reset trigger. Sometimes people enter the dungeon, kill a few mobs and then realize it is not worth it. Making the spawn not reset in those cases is good.
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myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2024, 12:41:57 AM »
How do you want to control the loot influx in a fixed spawn system?

Lower the chests to an average and some things may stop dropping entirely. Keep it relative to the spawn and there'll be a huge influx. Make the treasure vary based on how recently it was last cleared, and people take a heavy hitter challenge for trash rewards.

Then account for repeat dungeon runners that are flagging everything that reset to the ninjalooting script for being there more than once a reset. The XP reward isn't the only issue.

Once per player lootboxes is what the MMO's use for that spawn system, but they can control player numbers. We'd have to limit party sizes to stop swarm tactics, and increasing the number of enemies relative to party size causes other balancing issues.

There's a lot of balancing checks that a "No xp gained" message doesnt fix.

You say that as if prices on many formerly rare items have not plummeted recently with the sheer volume of ninja looters around.  Some items that were reliably like 10-15k even a few months back you cant even give away anymore lol.

Coal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2024, 05:03:26 AM »
Lock all dungeons and make the key to opening them a set amount of rp xp.

DoctorLuxo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2024, 05:20:22 AM »
I want to say that a ninjalooter can already go into a dungeon and loot while at max spawn which grants them the best loot table. Having it available to parties would surely mean that the dungeon would reset very often thus increasing the ratio of good loot tables/time. So if the dungeons are to be always max spawn, the loot table must be tied only to a timer.

myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2024, 11:06:37 AM »
I want to say that a ninjalooter can already go into a dungeon and loot while at max spawn which grants them the best loot table. Having it available to parties would surely mean that the dungeon would reset very often thus increasing the ratio of good loot tables/time. So if the dungeons are to be always max spawn, the loot table must be tied only to a timer.

Simply make more areas not ninja lootable.  Have bosses in higher dungeons carry the best loot and have tremor sense and counterspell timestop.  That is a solveable problem.  Even if they skip just the boss thereís plenty of places where they can collect oodles of things.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 11:09:53 AM by myrddraal »

DoctorLuxo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2024, 12:13:08 PM »
It's not only a ninjalooting problem. Two groups can chain clearing a dungeon to have always good loot table.

myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2024, 12:46:30 PM »
It's not only a ninjalooting problem. Two groups can chain clearing a dungeon to have always good loot table.

and thats bad...why?  Ninja looters have already flooded the market with a plethora of items.  Bringing down prices doesnt really hurt anyone except people who want to hoard gold for no reason.  Rare drops are still rare.  If the % chance to drop needs tweaking, again, this is a fixable problem.  MMOs have been doing this for ages.  Over three years I still have never seen arcane steel for example after running plenty of max spawn dungeons.  I really dont see the harm.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 12:57:34 PM by myrddraal »

Desident

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2024, 07:57:26 PM »
I hate the current system, and am in support of static spawns. Maybe there is a better answer, but the current one is terrible, time wasting, and discouraging. Though I strongly doubt that anything significant will change from the status-quo.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2024, 05:24:41 AM »
The tokens the server gives to people who have been in dungeons looting them during a reset period can just be tied to that, and make the loot spawns distinctly separate from the dungeon strength if the dungeon strength doesn't change. If nothing else, the CR of the mobs within the dungeon can remain the same, and the quantity of those present can be lessened, with juicy/looty bosses being absent.

The crux of the issue is that you can travel and get a party together for an hour and get nothing because the spawn is too low to provide any XP at all, not just a reduced amount. The problem could be fixed by changing what a low spawn is considered -- The number of mobs within the dungeon, or complexity of them, without drastically lowering the challenge rating. At least then, you'll get something for having gone in there. Concerns about farming for XP shouldn't matter, really, given the XP Cap system, and repeated running of the dungeon, even on it's 'Low' spawn of fewer mobs, won't yield any significant loot for the party, whereas rotating their dungeon of choice will.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 05:30:29 AM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2024, 11:32:16 AM »
As the thread goes on, I think it is telling there are a good number of tweaks that should be considered to adjust for our high population of players.

I have another to add to the pile. Since we at least have a way to actually scry locations with high loot and monsters available by going to the vistani seer.  However, I don't know if it is intended to be very accurate or not, because I've used the service before and when I arrived to the dungeon everything seemed to suggest it was still a middling spawn. Maybe the accuracy of the madame's reports could be adjusted.

Main points I suggest to update the whole crying thinga-ma-jig system:
1. Ensure her service is reasonably reporting places that are at high monster spawns, or high treasures. Includimg places with no parties currently present. If there are no places she can reasonably suggest, maybe it should trigger the server to immediately inflate a random dungeon.
2. Lower the chance she tells characters about Castle Ravenloft. 4 times out of 5. It will be the dungeon she scries despite it being an event locked location.
3. Add a seer to the vallaki vistani camp to do the same thing for just western Barovia. Or add an anchorite npc in Vallaki who can "search the mists" to do foretellings about locations. Divination is a strong theme for the church, which should be an area for the devs to explore :^)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 12:01:56 PM by Cody »

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2024, 11:42:11 AM »
As the thread goes on, I think it is telling there are a good number of tweaks that should be considered to adjust for our high population of players.

I have another to add to the pile. Since we at least have a way to actually scry locations with high loot and monsters available by going to the vistani seer.  However, I don't know if it is intended to be very accurate or not, because I've used the service before and when I arrived to the dungeon everything seemed to suggest it was still a middling spawn. Maybe the accuracy of the madame's reports could be adjusted.

Main points I suggest to update the whole crying thinga-ma-jig system:
1. Ensure her service is reasonably reporting places that are at high monster spawns, or high treasures. If there are no places she can reasonably suggest, maybe it should trigger the server to immediately inflate a random dungeon.
2. Lower the chance she tells characters about Castle Ravenloft. 4 times out of 5. It will be the dungeon she scries despite it being an event locked location.
3. Add a seer to the vallaki vistani camp to do the same thing for just western Barovia. Or add an anchorite npc in Vallaki who can "search the mists" to do foretellings about locations :^)

I prefer the loot and spawn systems as they are, but these are some neat ideas
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Desident

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2024, 08:55:22 PM »
Suggestion: A Monster Hunting NPC, who you can pay to 'corral' monsters. Pay a fee, however exorbitant you think is reasonable, and it pops the spawn of a select list of dungeons up to full. Everyone gets 1 use of the NPC a week, in addition to the cost in fang. RP-wise he and his team go harrass them, shooing them back into their lair quicker. That way you can plan 'trips' with friends/guild, and know that it won't be a waste. If 1 time a week is too often, push it to once a month.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 08:56:56 PM by Desident »

cooachlyfe

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2024, 09:32:19 PM »
Why not just have the dungeon empty until it reaches a near max spawn. Would make more sense ICly imo.

myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2024, 09:38:54 PM »
Why not just have the dungeon empty until it reaches a near max spawn. Would make more sense ICly imo.

That still sort of just leaves a bunch of people SOL on content just because someone else was oocly available before you.  Or raced ahead of you to claim a dungeon sending out the message to run it over discord. (you arent supposed to, but we know people do it)  I would rather just have the spawn be static and tweak the loot tables as necessary.  It would probably be less draining on server resources to not have spawns "mature" more than likely be less bugs too.  Would be an overall QOL improvement for everyone.

Day Old Bread

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2024, 09:41:23 PM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.

Desident

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2024, 10:31:34 PM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.
The problem is that there are too many players running all the dungeons, leaving them often underwhelming and trivial for everyone else. There is no system to let people know where they can find a good challenge, on top of the rather long time it usually takes to gather a competent group to do various content. If I spend an hour waiting for a buffing wizard to show up, finally get everyone from their various convo's while we waited, go to place A. only to see that it was just cleared... is discouraging. Having a way to get content when you have the time and people to do it, is sorely needed.

myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2024, 10:46:56 PM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.

Spending potentially an hour or so collecting people to arrive at a low spawn dungeon that wont give xp is pretty doodoo.  What is so bad about having dungeon spawns be static?  Nobodys time is wasted then.

Day Old Bread

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2024, 10:53:33 PM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.
There is no system to let people know where they can find a good challenge, on top of the rather long time it usually takes to gather a competent group to do various content.

I may be mistaken, but I recall the Raunie in the tent offers an idea of what areas are at their best spawns (maybe I'm mistaken) or good loot to be had in those places. It costs some coin, but it can help direct groups toward potentially lucritive runs. There is an issue of perception here though that I think many players fail to recognize. Just because it is not at its highest spawn does not mean it isn't worth completing. There is still some loot to be had and plenty of opportunity to RP along the way.

Quote
If I spend an hour waiting for a buffing wizard to show up, finally get everyone from their various convo's while we waited, go to place A. only to see that it was just cleared... is discouraging. Having a way to get content when you have the time and people to do it, is sorely needed.

This is not a problem of the system but of our expectations, in my opinion. I for one, am not willing to wait around for 2 hours or so to find a group to run a dungeon. If it's not happening, I'll go find somewhere that I and my small group can be successful, or I'll go and generate some RP somewhere.

myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2024, 11:06:29 PM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.
There is no system to let people know where they can find a good challenge, on top of the rather long time it usually takes to gather a competent group to do various content.

I may be mistaken, but I recall the Raunie in the tent offers an idea of what areas are at their best spawns (maybe I'm mistaken) or good loot to be had in those places. It costs some coin, but it can help direct groups toward potentially lucritive runs. There is an issue of perception here though that I think many players fail to recognize. Just because it is not at its highest spawn does not mean it isn't worth completing. There is still some loot to be had and plenty of opportunity to RP along the way.

Quote
If I spend an hour waiting for a buffing wizard to show up, finally get everyone from their various convo's while we waited, go to place A. only to see that it was just cleared... is discouraging. Having a way to get content when you have the time and people to do it, is sorely needed.

This is not a problem of the system but of our expectations, in my opinion. I for one, am not willing to wait around for 2 hours or so to find a group to run a dungeon. If it's not happening, I'll go find somewhere that I and my small group can be successful, or I'll go and generate some RP somewhere.

The time it takes for dungeon spawns to mature is well over the two hours you arent willing to wait.  In most cases you'll need to wait like 6 hours before a dungeon will hit high or even max spawn again (assuming the dungeon doesnt bug like say, the brothel, likes to do alot and simply have no spawns).  Something which can be increasingly annoying if there is a group running around and doing multiple dungeons or multiple groups going around at the same time.  At a certain point it is just "well this was just wasting all of the time I had to play today" and it can be completely avoided with a static spawn.  Probably take less server resources too.  Loot tables are already effected by people running the same dungeon too frequently so it isnt like there is a legitimate concern about people running something like Perfidus' temple or Barrow of The Sleeping King or The Salt Mines of Veidrava over and over again and churning out ultra rare loot.  Even ninja looting the same spot over and over again in a short span of time will see diminished returns.  If loot tables did need to be tweaked because they are over rewarding, that can be and has been addressed before.  You may not personaly want to invest the time to look for people if they arent just mystically around at the right time, have an hour or two to play, and have no ic qualms in heading places with specific people, but others do.  It would be a purely beneficial change for everyone.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 11:15:24 PM by myrddraal »

Day Old Bread

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2024, 12:29:34 AM »
The time it takes for dungeon spawns to mature is well over the two hours you arent willing to wait.  In most cases you'll need to wait like 6 hours before a dungeon will hit high or even max spawn again (assuming the dungeon doesnt bug like say, the brothel, likes to do alot and simply have no spawns).  Something which can be increasingly annoying if there is a group running around and doing multiple dungeons or multiple groups going around at the same time.  At a certain point it is just "well this was just wasting all of the time I had to play today" and it can be completely avoided with a static spawn.  Probably take less server resources too.  Loot tables are already effected by people running the same dungeon too frequently so it isnt like there is a legitimate concern about people running something like Perfidus' temple or Barrow of The Sleeping King or The Salt Mines of Veidrava over and over again and churning out ultra rare loot.  Even ninja looting the same spot over and over again in a short span of time will see diminished returns.  If loot tables did need to be tweaked because they are over rewarding, that can be and has been addressed before.  You may not personaly want to invest the time to look for people if they arent just mystically around at the right time, have an hour or two to play, and have no ic qualms in heading places with specific people, but others do.  It would be a purely beneficial change for everyone.

I think you've missed the point though. I'm not logging in to run multiple dungeons. I do that if I happen to find a good group for it, but those are usually arranged through RP not through sitting around the MC waiting for a group to form. So to my mind, the current state of things isn't a bad thing because it encourages RP as opposed to endlessly running dungeons or repetitively running dungeons. In my mind. Anything that discourages repetitive grinding and encourages RP on this RP server is a great thing. If people are interested in the loot grind and the XP grind, there's the action server for that. Yes, the population is low. But I'd argue that a lot of players would be happier there than they are on the RP server because it could potentially be a playground for the exact thing they're looking for.

myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2024, 06:39:32 AM »
The time it takes for dungeon spawns to mature is well over the two hours you arent willing to wait.  In most cases you'll need to wait like 6 hours before a dungeon will hit high or even max spawn again (assuming the dungeon doesnt bug like say, the brothel, likes to do alot and simply have no spawns).  Something which can be increasingly annoying if there is a group running around and doing multiple dungeons or multiple groups going around at the same time.  At a certain point it is just "well this was just wasting all of the time I had to play today" and it can be completely avoided with a static spawn.  Probably take less server resources too.  Loot tables are already effected by people running the same dungeon too frequently so it isnt like there is a legitimate concern about people running something like Perfidus' temple or Barrow of The Sleeping King or The Salt Mines of Veidrava over and over again and churning out ultra rare loot.  Even ninja looting the same spot over and over again in a short span of time will see diminished returns.  If loot tables did need to be tweaked because they are over rewarding, that can be and has been addressed before.  You may not personaly want to invest the time to look for people if they arent just mystically around at the right time, have an hour or two to play, and have no ic qualms in heading places with specific people, but others do.  It would be a purely beneficial change for everyone.

I think you've missed the point though. I'm not logging in to run multiple dungeons. I do that if I happen to find a good group for it, but those are usually arranged through RP not through sitting around the MC waiting for a group to form. So to my mind, the current state of things isn't a bad thing because it encourages RP as opposed to endlessly running dungeons or repetitively running dungeons. In my mind. Anything that discourages repetitive grinding and encourages RP on this RP server is a great thing. If people are interested in the loot grind and the XP grind, there's the action server for that. Yes, the population is low. But I'd argue that a lot of players would be happier there than they are on the RP server because it could potentially be a playground for the exact thing they're looking for.


People have pmíd saying me you donít run dungeons at all and this conversation is pointless - but iíll  take your continued reply as a genuine desire to engage in the conversation because if youíre being contrarian solely for the sake of it I guess thatís one way to spend your day.

Like you, I also donít log in just to run multiple dungeons a day, and at the moment with the system as it is I do try to find ones that are worth the time to go to when I do want to run one.  Iíve done plenty of arranging dungeon groups via roleplay and Iíve also been the ďweíre missing something so letís go to the Dyad / outskirtsĒ gang.  Thereís nothing inherently wrong with roleplaying around the Dyad until you do find an adventure that you want to go on.  Like I mentioned before sometimes you just donít have all the pieces you need, and considering there are perhaps 3 dungeons you can meaningfully engage with without a rogue / beguiler after you hit the point if traveling around the dyad and itís not the most fun role to fill, you might be waiting a bit.

Yes, there is more to the server than going to dungeons, nobody is denying that.  I just donít think you should be punished because another group or groups ran all the content before you even could log in.  A sentiment almost every MMO shares seeing as the dungeons are usually instanced.

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2024, 07:12:00 AM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.

Performance, for one practical concern.  Processing this takes a considerable amount of the server's processing power and depletes the available entropy considerably faster than NWN normally has.  Every time one complains of cooked dice rolls, this is one of the key contributing factors, I'd think.

Quote from: myrddraal
Yes, there is more to the server than going to dungeons, nobody is denying that.  I just donít think you should be punished because another group or groups ran all the content before you even could log in.  A sentiment almost every MMO shares seeing as the dungeons are usually instanced.

Yeah, making people have to engage with complex mechanical systems for dungeons is, in essence, punishing them for spending their bandwidth on other things, like, say, roleplay, that is supposed to be a focus of this server.  It mechanically advantages people whom are doing nothing but mindlessly grinding.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 07:13:31 AM by Maiyannah »
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myrddraal

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2024, 08:38:22 AM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.

Performance, for one practical concern.  Processing this takes a considerable amount of the server's processing power and depletes the available entropy considerably faster than NWN normally has.  Every time one complains of cooked dice rolls, this is one of the key contributing factors, I'd think.

Quote from: myrddraal
Yes, there is more to the server than going to dungeons, nobody is denying that.  I just donít think you should be punished because another group or groups ran all the content before you even could log in.  A sentiment almost every MMO shares seeing as the dungeons are usually instanced.

Yeah, making people have to engage with complex mechanical systems for dungeons is, in essence, punishing them for spending their bandwidth on other things, like, say, roleplay, that is supposed to be a focus of this server.  It mechanically advantages people whom are doing nothing but mindlessly grinding.

Exactly.  The setting is that these places are dangerous locations to travel to.  The roleplay around going to a dungeon can be varied, some people want to vanquish evil others want to sharpen their skills, etc, your particular ic reason to dungeon is whatever.  In absence of a DM or AMPC the dungeon is what enforces the setting.  To make it a PnP comparison, imagine looking forward to your weekly session, youíve been told about some cave or tomb filled with dangerous creatures or undead, but when you get there your DM decidesĒIím going to just make this content able to be steam rolledĒ. It would be incredibly deflating for that session and if it happened often enough youíd probably lose interest in the campaign entirely.

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2024, 10:25:27 AM »
What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.

Performance, for one practical concern.  Processing this takes a considerable amount of the server's processing power and depletes the available entropy considerably faster than NWN normally has.  Every time one complains of cooked dice rolls, this is one of the key contributing factors, I'd think.


I feel like of the many practical answers one could have for this, an outsider's view on the inner-workings of a system you aren't privy to isn't the most helpful. How can you possibly know the engine without being able to peek under the hood? Are you a Developer?

--
...Frankly, there's a far simpler answer to this, and one that no-one's actually brought up thus far in the room. It's that the current system has a very broad CR range. It doesn't stop chain-grinding, but it does disadvantage most players from having a pleasant experience with it. In my experience, personally, I wouldn't go dungeoning seeking a high spawn, I would seek dungeons far above my level in anticipation that the spawn would be low, and then run those dungeons in a chain grind. You can effectively dungeon content five to seven levels above your own with a well-rounded party on a low spawn. If you want to encourage the low spawn, going inside and killing one or two mobs and then leaving for the area to reset will lower the dungeon's rating every time, until it's at a spawn you can handle. People who power-level on this server usually use that method to get the best results in a very short amount of time, and then focus on heavy roleplay during their XP cooldown, which is why you might see that some people seem like they never actually dungeon, yet manage to be level sixteen in two or three months of playtime.

So having the broad range just confuses people, and makes the dungeoning system inconsistent except for people who know how to game the system. It shouldn't be that complicated, and the dungeon ranges shouldn't be so wild. You should be able to get XP, just less XP. As it stands, most of the time you either feast or famine unfortunately. It's a terrible system. Some people like it, but I'd wager that's entirely out of an acquired taste of familiarity versus objectively observing if the system is very fun, or engaging.


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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2024, 11:05:02 AM »
I think the spawn approach was an interesting experiment to try and limit grind and to give dungeons a bit more of a feel of being alive and responsive, but I think the server has somewhat outgrown it; the higher the player count, the more players step on each other's toes for completing content. This is partially counter-acted by the fact that spawns regain their max level faster when there's more players, but that just underscores the underlying tension, IMO.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 11:13:49 AM by Madame Trousers Son »
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