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Author Topic: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings  (Read 1871 times)

Cody

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Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« on: April 02, 2024, 03:43:51 AM »
One of the most disheartening things on the server is to spend a real life hour or more of your day to travel somewhere with your party that you all have not touched in weeks, only to find it having been recently ransacked by some other party by a mere several hours ago. The challenge level of the dungeon now drastically plummeted to insignificance, so now your party has to choose to go somewhere else, but then you also find that area plundered. Or you come across others while travelling who tell you about all the dungeons that were raided in the past 4 hours in a checklist. Your party decides to give up and tells each other, Well there is always tomorrow, but then the same thing happens again the next time.

Perhaps it would be too much to ask for all the old dungeons to have their spawns adjusted so your level 10 party don't have to waste their time travelling to fight big beefy werebeasts somewhere only to find them replaced by monsters fitting for a level 3 group. While it is nice that dungeons can have varied spawns, many seem way too wildly different in strength.

Going forth could we ensure new dungeons do not have extremely wide gaps in the challenge ratings of their spawns? Could we come up with something so that the players who travel in parties and who are pointedly not the ones grinding dungeons, are not punished the same as the people who do wipe dungeon after dungeon all across the server in a single day? The current system does not seem enough.

Skelni

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2024, 03:53:19 AM »
Whilst I agree that dungeons could perhaps have a tighter range of difficulty put into them when the spawns are low and high - The inverse is also just as true.

The action server demonstrates this to a tee. You go in, and every single dungeon is at max spawn all the time, which makes it exceedingly difficult for any players or parties try and make something of it. You start having to really cheese it hardcore to try and get anywhere if you don't have "the party comp" for all of it.

The reality is you could band together a huge warband for any challenge to obsolete it. Just about every level range has a place to go relatively speaking. I don't think it's the most crucially needed change, but re-examining it might turn out for the better.
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apeppertoo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2024, 04:34:22 AM »
I don't actually think it's nice that spawns vary in strength, and the problem that system is looking to solve is already solved by the combat XP cap system. Last time this topic came up someone argued that low spawns were useful for lower level parties which, to me, is a specious take at best. To my knowledge there is at least one dungeon that, at max spawn, is appropriate for every conceivable level range.

If spawns were always maxed out these parties would never have to just call off their night.
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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2024, 06:16:38 AM »
I also wish dungeons only spawned at max because I dislike being oocly unfortunate enough to have arrived somewhere an hour or two after someone else.  Especially if it was someone soloing the dungeon for just for loot when you wanted to actually have a challenge for xp (and yes loot is gravy.). For power leveling reasons I understand why they are not though.  Even with the combat xp system the way it is it stops people from just farming a dungeon all day.

Ideally dungeon spawns would work the same as loot tables to me.  If you had been there within the last few days, the spawn would regulate to be low, the longer youíre away (letís say a week) before itís max again.  There are plenty of dungeons available to spread out your adventures to make that feasible since if you are going to a dungeon (or two) every single day youíll quickly hit diminished xp anyway.  I donít think it would be feasible to implement though.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 06:41:01 AM by myrddraal »

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2024, 07:54:56 AM »
I personally like the fact that dungeons can have been done or on lower spawn. There is mecanic involve that would benefit to players to know. Those who only kill a few monster and run away lower the spawn difficulty... those who does all the dungeons one after each other too.. is a bit much and not leaving fun for others. I mean its not agaisn't the rule but you could try and RP more in between or whatever. I love dungeons etc. but i haven't done much in the past weeks has i don't force it. Its just hapens. rarely.

Wilkins1952

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2024, 11:19:10 AM »
I don't actually think it's nice that spawns vary in strength, and the problem that system is looking to solve is already solved by the combat XP cap system. Last time this topic came up someone argued that low spawns were useful for lower level parties which, to me, is a specious take at best. To my knowledge there is at least one dungeon that, at max spawn, is appropriate for every conceivable level range.

If spawns were always maxed out these parties would never have to just call off their night.

This Variable spawn levels at least imo this should be based of time since you last entered the area, We have vastly many more dungeons now that if one is too difficult to the party there are plenty of other options. Though people should still be punished for running the same dungeon over and over daily. Instead it should be a personal timer that over the course of say a week or so the dungeon will regain strength for the next time you visit.
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Nularia

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2024, 11:19:34 AM »
Do low level groups ever actually go to a place and hope "Gosh, I hope someone else recently cleared this dungeon out so that the monsters are weaker and we can fight them!"

Cody

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2024, 12:54:05 PM »
I don't actually think it's nice that spawns vary in strength, and the problem that system is looking to solve is already solved by the combat XP cap system. Last time this topic came up someone argued that low spawns were useful for lower level parties which, to me, is a specious take at best. To my knowledge there is at least one dungeon that, at max spawn, is appropriate for every conceivable level range.

If spawns were always maxed out these parties would never have to just call off their night.

This is true, the more dungeons you do that are maxed out or close to it, the faster you'll run into XP penalties anyway. Soon enough, you're getting barely anything or nothing at all from the fighting.

I believe that monster spawns and loot don't have to be strictly tied together. We could continue to have challenging monster spawns in the dungeon at all times, but then have the loot pay out in worthless nutmegs and oregano due to the fact your party fought the dungeon too recently before any other group got to come in. Then at the same time individual people in your party could be getting heavily penalized by the combat XP cap.


In my first post I mentioned my group often leaving areas after noticing bad spawns, but the reverse is also often true too. Whenever the current system was first introduced, I have a feeling that it was thought that if the dungeon spawns appeared low or middling enough, most parties would walk away on their own. To allow things to recover naturally. This is definitely not common after everything I've seen. People WILL exterminate every single speck of dust and cover every corner anyway out of the hope for a breadcrumb of XP or a little gold, or a crafting drop. They absolutely wipe the progress of a dungeon so it stays ruined for another half a day. "We came all this way, we might as well do something". Or the group fights halfway through such a dungeon and decide it isn't worth it and leave, except at that point they've cleared so much that the dungeon gets reset to minimum spawn anyway.

I'm not saying that to criticize anyone for playing in any particular way. I'm only stating that the system is so opaque, people either don't understand or don't really care and will scourge through dungeons no matter what, then others hoping to find any content to do at all are punished for it. The server feels at times like it only has room for one party to play through higher level content, despite often having 70-140 people on.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 01:01:55 PM by Cody »

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2024, 01:26:42 PM »
i think outside of western barovia, perma-maxed dungeons isn't a...bad idea.
im never going to, say, har'akir with the intention of doing any min or even mid-level spawns.  the effort of getting a group together (ie a mage, a rogue, a fighter, myself, and maybe another friend or two cuz its an outing not just an xp grind!) to get little xp or loot just ain't worth it!  once  you're in the realm of carefully* configured parties the whole disparity thing is kinda pointless

it makes more sense in western barovia, though, because as the start zone there's a lot less organization among the adventurers so you might go with a very subpar party and having a lower spawn might be what it takes to have a do-able adventure!

however, that said, it's really not that hard to get xp even now.  even if you don't no-life it, as long as you do some good dungeoning every now and again with a good helping of RP, you should be well on your way to those high levels and enchanted equipment - and the heartbreaking realization that all those levels don't really mean anything and you really shouldn't sweat it too much

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2024, 01:29:23 PM »
I hate the impact the present system has on RP.  There is too much focus on what spawn level the dungeon is and whether or not people are "learning anything".  If you were IRL to go on a quest to hunt ghouls, show up, and it's a light spawn, would you really say "Oh it's not worth it let's come back when they are stronger."?  No. It makes zero RP sense.  If setting the spawns to a static CR at all times and leaving the loot variable reduced that sort of chatter, I'd fully support a change. 

apeppertoo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2024, 03:20:47 PM »
Do low level groups ever actually go to a place and hope "Gosh, I hope someone else recently cleared this dungeon out so that the monsters are weaker and we can fight them!"

Yeah that was my point. It's absurd to think anyone actually does this regularly - or at all.
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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2024, 04:17:24 PM »
Yes please. Adjust low end upwards.

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2024, 04:25:14 PM »
I hate the impact the present system has on RP.  There is too much focus on what spawn level the dungeon is and whether or not people are "learning anything".  If you were IRL to go on a quest to hunt ghouls, show up, and it's a light spawn, would you really say "Oh it's not worth it let's come back when they are stronger."?  No. It makes zero RP sense.  If setting the spawns to a static CR at all times and leaving the loot variable reduced that sort of chatter, I'd fully support a change.

Big agree, finding low spawn dungeons is always an "oh, we just wasted an hour getting here" moment and everyone's a little sad. Doesn't contribute to good RP, just wastes time.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2024, 06:48:16 PM »
If spawns are given fixed or narrow challenge ratings, they will have to extend periods where it's empty. In fact, emptiness would have to replace all lower variation spawns.

Otherwise people *will* repeat run a dungeon that's locked at a level where things are maximal XP, regardless of treasure fluctuations. Stealthed players *will* camp at specific dungeons more regularly than they do (throw some caltrops or an alarm at an entrance, it happens one day out of five), and inadvertantly trigger the ninjalooting scripts with their presence for being there already once that reset, nerfing the loot. (The scripts check people who enter, and flag the containers were already opened previously while that person was present.)

The variability based on who has defeated the challenge recently may be awkward at times but it is the definition of "this is better than nothing."

There's some serious ramifications to changing things as they are now, if you want to account for balance. To stop powercreeping, loot being nerfed by untoward player behaviour, endless dungeon running.. other checks have to be put in place to replace "things are weaker now."

Some places should remain dangerous, and perhaps it should be based on variable quantity rather than variable quality.

There isn't a clean solution that isn't going to be severely exploited that I can think of. In a world of roving adventurers, sometimes someone ate the cake first.

apeppertoo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2024, 07:18:35 PM »
If spawns are given fixed or narrow challenge ratings, they will have to extend periods where it's empty.

No they won't.
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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2024, 08:14:02 PM »
Predictability breeds complacency, fear arises from the unknown. Low spawn or high spawn, both end up predictable for a experienced player. The fluctuation of danger helps foster a sense of exploration, but when one is done exploring its a hindrance to planning.

More hints in areas leading up to dungeons, telling as to what sort of danger level should be expected ahead, would help I think.

Day Old Bread

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2024, 08:32:22 PM »
I have often travelled to places hoping for a low spawn so that my party/character can actually succeed. The current system is fine.

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2024, 08:48:18 PM »
No one goes to a dungeon and goes "ahhh i love this low spawn :D", unless you have a strange contrarian opinion.

I think POTM should lessen the waste of player's time, and go with a standard spawn/raised spawn for all dungeons.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2024, 09:02:01 PM »
How do you want to control the loot influx in a fixed spawn system?

Lower the chests to an average and some things may stop dropping entirely. Keep it relative to the spawn and there'll be a huge influx. Make the treasure vary based on how recently it was last cleared, and people take a heavy hitter challenge for trash rewards.

Then account for repeat dungeon runners that are flagging everything that reset to the ninjalooting script for being there more than once a reset. The XP reward isn't the only issue.

Once per player lootboxes is what the MMO's use for that spawn system, but they can control player numbers. We'd have to limit party sizes to stop swarm tactics, and increasing the number of enemies relative to party size causes other balancing issues.

There's a lot of balancing checks that a "No xp gained" message doesnt fix.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 09:07:40 PM by zDark Shadowz »

apeppertoo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2024, 09:43:17 PM »
I have been repeatedly told, over and over, that the loot spawn is separate and distinct from monster strength which is what makes ninjalooting not parasitic on traditional dungeon clearing - assuming the ninjalooter politely stays out of groups intending to fully clear something they just robbed.

These systems are therefore not tied together.
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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2024, 09:53:28 PM »
I have been repeatedly told, over and over, that the loot spawn is separate and distinct from monster strength which is what makes ninjalooting not parasitic on traditional dungeon clearing - assuming the ninjalooter politely stays out of groups intending to fully clear something they just robbed.

These systems are therefore not tied together.

These systems are tied together. The spawn affects the quality of the loot but looting does not affect the quality of the spawn.

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2024, 10:02:58 PM »
In my view, the graduated system is probably a considerable server resource sink (and entropy hog) for very few actual gains, but it's also very obviously an intentional design choice and so it's unlikely to change.
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apeppertoo

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2024, 10:15:23 PM »
I have been repeatedly told, over and over, that the loot spawn is separate and distinct from monster strength which is what makes ninjalooting not parasitic on traditional dungeon clearing - assuming the ninjalooter politely stays out of groups intending to fully clear something they just robbed.

These systems are therefore not tied together.

These systems are tied together. The spawn affects the quality of the loot but looting does not affect the quality of the spawn.

The spawn can affect the quality of the loot yet the presence of a ninjalooter who'd been in the dungeon just hours earlier can completely negate the influence of monster strength?

Sounds terrible.
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Day Old Bread

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2024, 10:17:59 PM »
No one goes to a dungeon and goes "ahhh i love this low spawn :D", unless you have a strange contrarian opinion.

I think POTM should lessen the waste of player's time, and go with a standard spawn/raised spawn for all dungeons.

I literally just said that I sometimes hope for a low spawn. So the statement is objectively false.

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Re: Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2024, 11:18:30 PM »
I love the POTM dungeon and loot system as it is. What we need are more dungeons! Many more dungeons for all levels! I want to see more low level dungeons in Dementlieu too!  :mrgreen:
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