Narrowing the dungeon spawn challenge ratings

[Hemolymph]

[...] So to my mind, the current state of things isn't a bad thing because it encourages RP as opposed to endlessly running dungeons or repetitively running dungeons. In my mind. Anything that discourages repetitive grinding and encourages RP on this RP server is a great thing. [...]

This is an old argument I've seen a lot over different topics, so I'll say it again: Doing dungeons is roleplaying. A Morninglord cleric seeking out undead to put to rest is acting towards their convictions. A ranger or monster hunter going specifically against their favored enemies is the same thing. A fighter is defined by fighting. Etc. Hell, even if you check the sourcebooks there's example characters that are just like "this guy hunts shapechangers all day, this is what he does." (Talking about Patrick Connor from Heroes of Light here)

But anyway, the problem is that even if you don't do dungeons 24/7 (which is fine if you did, that's the core gameplay loop of the game and it's fun), you can be a casual player that decides to dungeon with a few people one day, using the few hours you have for videogames, and find absolutely nothing worthwhile through no fault of your own just because someone else decided to do those dungeons an hour before you did.

[myrddraal]

What exactly is the problem with the current system where spawns ramp up over time, which is relatively brief in most cases.

Performance, for one practical concern.  Processing this takes a considerable amount of the server's processing power and depletes the available entropy considerably faster than NWN normally has.  Every time one complains of cooked dice rolls, this is one of the key contributing factors, I'd think.

I feel like of the many practical answers one could have for this, an outsider's view on the inner-workings of a system you aren't privy to isn't the most helpful. How can you possibly know the engine without being able to peek under the hood? Are you a Developer?

--
...Frankly, there's a far simpler answer to this, and one that no-one's actually brought up thus far in the room. It's that the current system has a very broad CR range. It doesn't stop chain-grinding, but it does disadvantage most players from having a pleasant experience with it. In my experience, personally, I wouldn't go dungeoning seeking a high spawn, I would seek dungeons far above my level in anticipation that the spawn would be low, and then run those dungeons in a chain grind. You can effectively dungeon content five to seven levels above your own with a well-rounded party on a low spawn. If you want to encourage the low spawn, going inside and killing one or two mobs and then leaving for the area to reset will lower the dungeon's rating every time, until it's at a spawn you can handle. People who power-level on this server usually use that method to get the best results in a very short amount of time, and then focus on heavy roleplay during their XP cooldown, which is why you might see that some people seem like they never actually dungeon, yet manage to be level sixteen in two or three months of playtime.

So having the broad range just confuses people, and makes the dungeoning system inconsistent except for people who know how to game the system. It shouldn't be that complicated, and the dungeon ranges shouldn't be so wild. You should be able to get XP, just less XP. As it stands, most of the time you either feast or famine unfortunately. It's a terrible system. Some people like it, but I'd wager that's entirely out of an acquired taste of familiarity versus objectively observing if the system is very fun, or engaging.

The people who get to level 16 in like 2 months probably spend upwards of 6 hours a day roleplaying.  Dungeon Rp is capped over a period of time but RP xp isn’t.  Just because you lower a dungeon spawn to make it more manageable doesn’t mean you are going to level faster than someone who only does high spawns.  The rpxp is what separates peoples difference in leveling.

There shouldn’t be any shame in going to a dungeon, saying “wow this is too hard”, leave and find something else, and also not set the spawn to minimum for anyone else who might come later.

As far as the comments on performance, it’s speculative, sure, but it seems pretty much like you could feasibly come to the conclusion that it would be less draining on the system to not have all the dungeons in the game constantly maturing in spawns rather than statically respawning.

[Day Old Bread]

[...] So to my mind, the current state of things isn't a bad thing because it encourages RP as opposed to endlessly running dungeons or repetitively running dungeons. In my mind. Anything that discourages repetitive grinding and encourages RP on this RP server is a great thing. [...]

This is an old argument I've seen a lot over different topics, so I'll say it again: Doing dungeons is roleplaying. A Morninglord cleric seeking out undead to put to rest is acting towards their convictions. A ranger or monster hunter going specifically against their favored enemies is the same thing. A fighter is defined by fighting. Etc. Hell, even if you check the sourcebooks there's example characters that are just like "this guy hunts shapechangers all day, this is what he does." (Talking about Patrick Connor from Heroes of Light here)

But anyway, the problem is that even if you don't do dungeons 24/7 (which is fine if you did, that's the core gameplay loop of the game and it's fun), you can be a casual player that decides to dungeon with a few people one day, using the few hours you have for videogames, and find absolutely nothing worthwhile through no fault of your own just because someone else decided to do those dungeons an hour before you did.

I am not saying that doing dungeons isn't role playing. I'm saying that sprinting to and through them, not speaking to one another, not engaging with the dungeon in any way shape or form, essentiall "farming" the dungeon, is not role play. It's MMO gameplay which I know a lot of our playerbase enjoys. I do too, but in the appropriate setting like an MMO. But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

[Maiyannah]

I feel like of the many practical answers one could have for this, an outsider's view on the inner-workings of a system you aren't privy to isn't the most helpful. How can you possibly know the engine without being able to peek under the hood? Are you a Developer?

Is this the point where I link my body of work on NeverwinterVault?

I am not saying that doing dungeons isn't role playing. I'm saying that sprinting to and through them, not speaking to one another, not engaging with the dungeon in any way shape or form, essentiall "farming" the dungeon, is not role play. It's MMO gameplay which I know a lot of our playerbase enjoys. I do too, but in the appropriate setting like an MMO. But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

I've read this a few times and I really can't help but read this as "you're doing it wrong."  I have done as many dungeons with people "grinding" as I have those with the more roleplay-centric players and in my anecdotal exprience you get roleplay with both.

[Day Old Bread]

I am not saying that doing dungeons isn't role playing. I'm saying that sprinting to and through them, not speaking to one another, not engaging with the dungeon in any way shape or form, essentiall "farming" the dungeon, is not role play. It's MMO gameplay which I know a lot of our playerbase enjoys. I do too, but in the appropriate setting like an MMO. But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

I've read this a few times and I really can't help but read this as "you're doing it wrong."  I have done as many dungeons with people "grinding" as I have those with the more roleplay-centric players and in my anecdotal exprience you get roleplay with both.

I've done both as well. I've definitely just gone out and run dungeons just to run dungeons with absolutely NO rp whatsoever. Sometimes it's fun. I've been on a lot of runs with random groups (a lot being relative I guess) where RP definitely took a back seat to grinding for xp and loot. This happens just as often as people run for RP reasons. I'm not saying that there's a wrong way to enjoy the game. I'm just saying that I place more value on the RP than the grind. The grind is not engaging. The grind does not make me want to play more. The grind is what I expect from games like Diablo or Wow or FFXIV. What I expect from PotM is meaningful, engaging, RP. That RP can definitely be based around monster hunting and growing in power, but all to often it's just "Lets run dungeon and get speeeeeee!"

I'm also pointing out that if people are actually focused on the RP as opposed to whatever they'll get out of the dungeon, then there's likely to be very little to complain about. I stand by the point that there is never a case where doing a dungeon is a worthless endeavor. Yes, there are times when it will be a more valueable experience for all parties involved. But there is never going to be a time when it is completely fruitless. This mindset is a failure of the player, not the game.

[Maiyannah]

I'm also pointing out that if people are actually focused on the RP as opposed to whatever they'll get out of the dungeon, then there's likely to be very little to complain about. I stand by the point that there is never a case where doing a dungeon is a worthless endeavor. Yes, there are times when it will be a more valueable experience for all parties involved. But there is never going to be a time when it is completely fruitless. This mindset is a failure of the player, not the game.

If you get to a dungeon, and it's cleared, what meaningful story development is occuring?

This question has been posed a couple times in this thread at this point, and now a third, and it has not received an adequete answer.

Asking the game to respect my time as a player is hardly a failure of any player.

[Day Old Bread]

I'm also pointing out that if people are actually focused on the RP as opposed to whatever they'll get out of the dungeon, then there's likely to be very little to complain about. I stand by the point that there is never a case where doing a dungeon is a worthless endeavor. Yes, there are times when it will be a more valueable experience for all parties involved. But there is never going to be a time when it is completely fruitless. This mindset is a failure of the player, not the game.

If you get to a dungeon, and it's cleared, what meaningful story development is occuring?

This question has been posed a couple times in this thread at this point, and now a third, and it has not received an adequete answer.

Dungeons reset on approximately a 15 minute timer. That is the span of 2.5 hours in game. In that time a party could discuss strategy, ensure that everyone has a little more time before they must rest again which means there is less chance of there being that one guy who has to wait an hour to rest later into the dungeon. If people can get over the need to run a max spawn dungeon, then 15 minutes is a small amount of time to wait for one to repopulate with both loot and enemies. Alternatively, most areas have multiple dungeons within a short distance from one another, so the group could reasonable send a scout to check on one of those as well, ensuring that the time travelled isn't wasted.

Of course this requires the group to send in an advance scout or scouting party, before they buff to the heavens. But again, this is RP enhancement because it is giving our rogues and sneaks a meaningful job within the party beyond simply opening the locks and disarming the traps. Just food for thought.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Dungeons reset on approximately a 15 minute timer. That is the span of 2.5 hours in game. In that time a party could discuss strategy, ensure that everyone has a little more time before they must rest again which means there is less chance of there being that one guy who has to wait an hour to rest later into the dungeon. If people can get over the need to run a max spawn dungeon, then 15 minutes is a small amount of time to wait for one to repopulate with both loot and enemies. Alternatively, most areas have multiple dungeons within a short distance from one another, so the group could reasonable send a scout to check on one of those as well, ensuring that the time travelled isn't wasted.

Of course this requires the group to send in an advance scout or scouting party, before they buff to the heavens. But again, this is RP enhancement because it is giving our rogues and sneaks a meaningful job within the party beyond simply opening the locks and disarming the traps. Just food for thought.

See, the problem with this line of argument is that you're trying to make a virtue out of a vice. It's admirable when you're dealing with life's low points, but this is a hobby and we come here to have fun. People don't have to "get over the need" to run a max spawn dungeon; they can decide whether the time investment is worth it in return of fun or not; and if it isn't they'll do or play something else. And here's the thing, low spawn dungeons aren't really worth it. Not after you run them a couple of times. The loot isn't interesting and the XP isn't worth it. There's a reason people seek max spawn challenges, those are the most rewarding in game.

Sure, you can make it solely about the roleplay (though frankly if you think you're enlightening anyone when you make this point, you need to realise you're being condescending). Good roleplayers can make roleplay out of watching paint dry. It doesn't speak to the quality of the underlying system and whether it enhances said RP or not.

The two best things I can say about the spawn system is: (1) they do give a bit of spice of variety to dungeons and make them feel more alive; and (2) I can't think of an easy way to fix them that preserves (1). But let's not white wash over the flaws with "it's all about the roleplay", please.

[BraveSirRobin]

I feel like of the many practical answers one could have for this, an outsider's view on the inner-workings of a system you aren't privy to isn't the most helpful. How can you possibly know the engine without being able to peek under the hood? Are you a Developer?

Is this the point where I link my body of work on NeverwinterVault?

I think you're avoiding the issue and my questions. You can link it, if you like, but that didn't address anything I just said. Regardless, I don't want to derail into this, so I'll just say we move on to the subject of the thread.

[...] So to my mind, the current state of things isn't a bad thing because it encourages RP as opposed to endlessly running dungeons or repetitively running dungeons. In my mind. Anything that discourages repetitive grinding and encourages RP on this RP server is a great thing. [...]

This is an old argument I've seen a lot over different topics, so I'll say it again: Doing dungeons is roleplaying. A Morninglord cleric seeking out undead to put to rest is acting towards their convictions. A ranger or monster hunter going specifically against their favored enemies is the same thing. A fighter is defined by fighting. Etc. Hell, even if you check the sourcebooks there's example characters that are just like "this guy hunts shapechangers all day, this is what he does." (Talking about Patrick Connor from Heroes of Light here)

But anyway, the problem is that even if you don't do dungeons 24/7 (which is fine if you did, that's the core gameplay loop of the game and it's fun), you can be a casual player that decides to dungeon with a few people one day, using the few hours you have for videogames, and find absolutely nothing worthwhile through no fault of your own just because someone else decided to do those dungeons an hour before you did.

I am not saying that doing dungeons isn't role playing. I'm saying that sprinting to and through them, not speaking to one another, not engaging with the dungeon in any way shape or form, essentiall "farming" the dungeon, is not role play. It's MMO gameplay which I know a lot of our playerbase enjoys. I do too, but in the appropriate setting like an MMO. But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

Well. I mean, I both agree and disagree with you. I find the behavior undesirable entirely, and I would much prefer to be able to go through a dungeon at a pace and roleplay without worry. The problem is, spells that last hours last minutes here, and somewhat conflict with immersion, not unlike the rush and hustle associated with the day/night cycle. In theory, we are in a 1:1 timescale. One hour is one hour, and all time is kept in a 1:1 ratio. Despite the in-game clock being seven minutes to an hour, we only, generally, pay attention to the day/night cycle as scripting forces us to. Then we go inside. Dungeoning isn't unlike that, because we're put on what is effectively a ten-to-fourteen minute timer usually to enter into a life-threatening situation and eliminate our immediate threats, as every second wasted talking when we should be fighting to secure our safety and profits, is a second that could lead to us losing our spells in the middle of a fight.

While some other servers far less focused on roleplay have left the base NWN spell durations alone, or better yet, extended them? PoTM, a server focused on roleplay before mechanics, has mechanically shortened most of their spells that were originally an hour/level into a hour + turn/level. What this means is that spells that would comfortably last forty minutes or more, now last for maybe ten. There is only so much real estate the player has to work with, and a choice has to be made.

- We're going to a dungeon.
- This isn't roleplay time.
- We need to keep dialogue and instruction to a bare minimum.
- We have intervals of maybe, fifteen to twenty minutes of fighting time before we have to stop. Drastically less, early on.

More experienced groups just appoint a leader and mindlessly zerg behind them so that they can get through as fast as possible, to a pre-destined rest location, rest, then continue the parade. It's awful, but it's an item of PoTM's own doing, one of the design choices which are distinctly at odds with their stated mission goal, here.

The people who get to level 16 in like 2 months probably spend upwards of 6 hours a day roleplaying.  Dungeon Rp is capped over a period of time but RP xp isn’t.  Just because you lower a dungeon spawn to make it more manageable doesn’t mean you are going to level faster than someone who only does high spawns.  The rpxp is what separates peoples difference in leveling.

There shouldn’t be any shame in going to a dungeon, saying “wow this is too hard”, leave and find something else, and also not set the spawn to minimum for anyone else who might come later.

As far as the comments on performance, it’s speculative, sure, but it seems pretty much like you could feasibly come to the conclusion that it would be less draining on the system to not have all the dungeons in the game constantly maturing in spawns rather than statically respawning.

Yes and no. There are plenty of times where people have say, an hour or two at night to play the game, and they want to do a dungeon. They spent thirty or forty minutes getting a crew together, go out, thirty minutes getting into position for a dungeon in a domain that should only be catering to their level range, only to find that the quality of the dungeon no longer caters to the level range of the area because it's at a minimum spawn. They've wasted time going there, they, having no better idea or option, go to the next place and find it, too, is too weak for them.

Having wasted a few hours trying to get into a dungeon, the players go to bed, and don't get their XP that day. More than RP XP, what is most important is that you are able to consistently feed your XP meter when you want to. You could, in a single dungeon run, get the same XP as a dozen hours of roleplay and you might not have a dozen hours of playtime available. The sooner you cap that out and start roleplaying, the faster your cap will burn away and your RP XP feeds you in the interim. So the best way to avoid being blocked out of getting your XP is to hunt above your level, and either drop the spawn for everyone else who belongs in that area so your sub-leveled booty can leech the minimum spawn there, and even run it in circles, until you've hit your cap and you can RP or go offline until it's back. It's just the ability to actively control your ability to dungeon, instead of being shut down at the gates by stuff too weak for you.

Consider for a moment if you were always able to find a gainful dungeon run that gave you a 'Proud,' message on rest whenever it was convenient for you, without wasting time.

[myrddraal]

That is basically the point of this thread.  Instead of trying to punch up and having to lower the spawn, you simply go to an appropriate level place that always would have its ideal spawn.  Wasting nobodies time because you wouldn’t spend another 30 minutes outside the dungeon after killing a handful of mobs and going out to rest.  If the challenge rating was consistent, you could still explore new areas, find your limits, back off places too hard and subsequent visitors wouldn’t be punished for an entirely different party failing or if “icly thwarted by the evils that dominate” that dungeon.

From there you could see escalated challenge with the appearance of an AMPc or a DM popping in to raise the bar higher - provided they had the time and felt like it.
People already do drag under leveled characters around places regularly by the way without dropping spawns.

[BraveSirRobin]

That is basically the point of this thread.  Instead of trying to punch up and having to lower the spawn, you simply go to an appropriate level place that always would have its ideal spawn.  Wasting nobodies time because you wouldn’t spend another 30 minutes outside the dungeon after killing a handful of mobs and going out to rest.  If the challenge rating was consistent, you could still explore new areas, find your limits, back off places too hard and subsequent visitors wouldn’t be punished for an entirely different party failing or if “icly thwarted by the evils that dominate” that dungeon.

From there you could see escalated challenge with the appearance of an AMPc or a DM popping in to raise the bar higher - provided they had the time and felt like it.
People already do drag under leveled characters around places regularly by the way without dropping spawns.

Oh, yeah. That was my point. I was pointing out why the system is currently undesireable, not justifying it. I was rebutting people saying it's just fine and RP.

[apeppertoo]

But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

Chiming in to directly contradict this sentiment.

Once you get to a certain level the variance in CR swings so wildly that a dungeon that could get you multiple Prouds in one clear on max spawn might possibly get you literally zero XP at a low enough spawn. Making it... worthless, not worth less.

[Day Old Bread]

But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

Chiming in to directly contradict this sentiment.

Once you get to a certain level the variance in CR swings so wildly that a dungeon that could get you multiple Prouds in one clear on max spawn might possibly get you literally zero XP at a low enough spawn. Making it... worthless, not worth less.

There is almost always loot to be had in those dungeons and if you are RPing while you are there, you're gaining experience all the same. It is worth less, not worthless.

[apeppertoo]

There is almost always loot to be had in those dungeons and if you are RPing while you are there, you're gaining experience all the same. It is worth less, not worthless.

Loot being tied to CR of the spawn makes the loot worthless, and I could have RPed harder literally anywhere else. The dungeon was made worthless because the spawn system is Bad, Actually.

Do not tell me what my experience is. I have done this countless times, had runs be rendered utterly pointless for me because of a redundant system that needs to be stripped out. I've been to more than one run of the brothel or aboleth wherein I gained more from immediately killing the calibounty afterward, monetarily and from XP.

[Cody]

I'm also pointing out that if people are actually focused on the RP as opposed to whatever they'll get out of the dungeon, then there's likely to be very little to complain about. I stand by the point that there is never a case where doing a dungeon is a worthless endeavor. Yes, there are times when it will be a more valueable experience for all parties involved. But there is never going to be a time when it is completely fruitless. This mindset is a failure of the player, not the game.

If you get to a dungeon, and it's cleared, what meaningful story development is occuring?

This question has been posed a couple times in this thread at this point, and now a third, and it has not received an adequete answer.

Dungeons reset on approximately a 15 minute timer. That is the span of 2.5 hours in game. In that time a party could discuss strategy, ensure that everyone has a little more time before they must rest again which means there is less chance of there being that one guy who has to wait an hour to rest later into the dungeon. If people can get over the need to run a max spawn dungeon, then 15 minutes is a small amount of time to wait for one to repopulate with both loot and enemies. Alternatively, most areas have multiple dungeons within a short distance from one another, so the group could reasonable send a scout to check on one of those as well, ensuring that the time travelled isn't wasted.

Of course this requires the group to send in an advance scout or scouting party, before they buff to the heavens. But again, this is RP enhancement because it is giving our rogues and sneaks a meaningful job within the party beyond simply opening the locks and disarming the traps. Just food for thought.

You can wait 15 minutes sure, but that circles back around to the main issue being that the spawns come back at the bare minimum. Which means a dungeon that can normally be considered a risky challenge for a certain party will instead become a trivial ride with almost nothing to gain from it. You go from gaining combat xp, to nothing at all. You go from a possible share of 3000gp to split between your group to 200gp to evenly split.

You can visit other dungeons in the area, but you are not the only party on the server. If you thought of something. Then likely others have too. The other regional dungeons have also been wiped out.

The main problem isn't about us going, "WAAHH!! I WANT TO FIGHT AND SEE RED DAMAGE NUMBERS!!! I NEED ACTION SERVER!!!" There are those of us who like do both things on the server. Roleplay and Dungeon. While there is plenty of roleplay to go around, there is not enough dungeon experience for everyone. Especially in western Barovia where everybody is packed in together trying to climb the same progression of challenging dungeons every hour of the day, every day of the week.

It's a population issue and it's unfair to those of us who cannot play 24/7 and cannot find a single dungeon with a higher spawn count.

[myrddraal]

But I think the problem is peoples definition of what is "worthwhile". Just because something is not max spawn, does not mean it isn't worthwhile. It just means it is worth less.

Chiming in to directly contradict this sentiment.

Once you get to a certain level the variance in CR swings so wildly that a dungeon that could get you multiple Prouds in one clear on max spawn might possibly get you literally zero XP at a low enough spawn. Making it... worthless, not worth less.

There is almost always loot to be had in those dungeons and if you are RPing while you are there, you're gaining experience all the same. It is worth less, not worthless.

You might make your caravan fare back off of low spawns in some dungeons with loot worse than what low level dungeons in west barovia have to offer.  On top of likely zero experience.  Low spawns are worthless.  As has been said ad nauseum, and said by devs, if loot is overrewarding in some dungeons it can be tweaked.  You have to be trolling with that take.

[Day Old Bread]

You might make your caravan fare back off of low spawns in some dungeons with loot worse than what low level dungeons in west barovia have to offer.  On top of likely zero experience.  Low spawns are worthless.  As has been said ad nauseum, and said by devs, if loot is overrewarding in some dungeons it can be tweaked.  You have to be trolling with that take.

I'm sorry if you believe I'm trolling. I'm not. I have a different opinion on the subject than you and many others. It's likely I play the game for different reasons than some, so I offer the perspective of someone who doesn't see an overwhelming problem with the system that is currently in place. I have also managed my expectations in regards to the server, its mechanics, and it's players.

You may choose to believe what you like, but as stated before, there are times when I do look for low spawn dungeons. There are times when I hope for max spawn dungeons as well. Regardless, I do not have the horrible experiences that so many people seem to bemoan about the spawn system. I have been able to find value in nearly all of the dungeons I have completed, with very few exceptions. Those exceptions being the zerg runs that may net me a piece of nice gear, but leave me feeling dirty afterwards. It's the reason I avoid sitting around the MC for hours trying to find a dungeon. It's also the reason I mentioned I wouldn't bother waiting 2 hours to run a dungeon. If I have a mood to run something, I'll either find a group and run what we can, regardless of the XP or Loot, so long as there is at least a moderate challenge.

Consider for a moment that your view, and the view of the echo chamber that is so often created on the forums might not be the only view. I'm presenting an alternative perspective. You may choose to see it for what it is worth, another players valued input, or you may dismiss it. Just as you may choose to percieve anything lower than a max spawn as being worthless. Ultimately, it is a matter of perspective.

I've said my piece though, and I'll leave it at that.

[Maiyannah]

Yes, it is not productive to continue the discussion taking shots at other players, lets not do that.  The condescending attitude is what many people are ultimately reacting to.

The main problem isn't about us going, "WAAHH!! I WANT TO FIGHT AND SEE RED DAMAGE NUMBERS!!! I NEED ACTION SERVER!!!" There are those of us who like do both things on the server. Roleplay and Dungeon. While there is plenty of roleplay to go around, there is not enough dungeon experience for everyone. Especially in western Barovia where everybody is packed in together trying to climb the same progression of challenging dungeons every hour of the day, every day of the week.

I feel like this is the best spoken pertinent point, so I'm going to reiterate it.  Moreover, he definitely brings up a good point: pretty much any new dungeon is going to be in another domain, where very relatively few people are ultimately going to go.  I've done Black Watch one time.  I really enjoyed doing it too, and roleplaying out feeling out the new place with a group.  Yet that's just one time.  Finding groups both capable of "end-game" dungeons (or even middling dungeons in other dungeons), is often difficult outside of the Mist Camp trains, and I prefer to keep to groups that I know.  That's a me problem, I know.  But it highlights too that the primary place where more dungeons would actually be useful: for new players having to fight over low-level dungeons - are underserved.  As an anecdotal example, I just tried to do one with my level 2 barovian, and she was competing with 6 other people for it (none of whom were big on cooperating, and that's fine - its part of the roleplay too, believe it or not - not everyone is nice, hold hands and sing koombaya, sorts of people).  Additional dungeons for low-level players would ameliorate one of these problems.

[Nularia]

People can want to engage with the dungeons of the Module setting, without devaluing RPing. I do not see the situation as an either or style thing.

It's okay for people to want to go out into the world and get something meaningful besides just standing around, hmming and humming to themselves in player congregated hub. It's okay for adventurers to want to wander to new places, and not just stand in a city or town RPing for hours on end.

We shouldn't expect everyone to be perfectly find spending 8 hours a day just RP talking to other people and never having intrests going out and interacting with the world. That works for some people, and they are more than welcome to participate in such. I don't really see the negatives to normalizing dungeons. Outside of effectively ganking low levels trying to explore with suddenly way stronger mobs then they thought were going to be there, or wasting higher level's time with mobs that literally give them nothing?

I dunno, I will never understand why people seem to think that just because it's an RP server means it has to be inconvenient or waste people's time.

[myrddraal]

You might make your caravan fare back off of low spawns in some dungeons with loot worse than what low level dungeons in west barovia have to offer.  On top of likely zero experience.  Low spawns are worthless.  As has been said ad nauseum, and said by devs, if loot is overrewarding in some dungeons it can be tweaked.  You have to be trolling with that take.

I'm sorry if you believe I'm trolling. I'm not. I have a different opinion on the subject than you and many others. It's likely I play the game for different reasons than some, so I offer the perspective of someone who doesn't see an overwhelming problem with the system that is currently in place. I have also managed my expectations in regards to the server, its mechanics, and it's players.

You may choose to believe what you like, but as stated before, there are times when I do look for low spawn dungeons. There are times when I hope for max spawn dungeons as well. Regardless, I do not have the horrible experiences that so many people seem to bemoan about the spawn system. I have been able to find value in nearly all of the dungeons I have completed, with very few exceptions. Those exceptions being the zerg runs that may net me a piece of nice gear, but leave me feeling dirty afterwards. It's the reason I avoid sitting around the MC for hours trying to find a dungeon. It's also the reason I mentioned I wouldn't bother waiting 2 hours to run a dungeon. If I have a mood to run something, I'll either find a group and run what we can, regardless of the XP or Loot, so long as there is at least a moderate challenge.

Consider for a moment that your view, and the view of the echo chamber that is so often created on the forums might not be the only view. I'm presenting an alternative perspective. You may choose to see it for what it is worth, another players valued input, or you may dismiss it. Just as you may choose to percieve anything lower than a max spawn as being worthless. Ultimately, it is a matter of perspective.

I've said my piece though, and I'll leave it at that.

The “perspective” you’re offering is “it’s always been like this so why improve the playing experience for others?” So it does feel entirely like it’s trolling.  Especially when you do like to often take an abrasive stance in almost every thread you post in it seems like.  It may not be intentional on your behalf and tone can be hard to convey in text, but your only rebuttal to the plethora of boons that would come with the change are “well actually you get rpxp” but you get that everywhere.  Nobody has denied that it is a server revolving around RP first and foremost, that isn’t the point of contention, the point of contention is a quality of life improvement to the time sink that this game does require by getting rid of low spawns. The setting can be oppressive in character, it’s supposed to be, but it doesn’t have to be inconvenient /on an out of character level.  Running around looking for appropriately challenging content shouldn’t have to feel like a chore on a game that is supposed to be fun and arbitrarily having your time wasted because you’ve come into several weak spawns just because someone happened to do the dungeon you and your group were planning to go to sucks.  In a pen and paper campaign you’d also basically run these dungeons maybe one time before moving on, leveling up, etc, but the xp system is vastly slower on here and lends to more of “the grind.”  The first time you go into a new place and you’re looking through it and clicking all the little lore dumps it might be fine and fun exploring on a low spawn, but that quickly dissolves when you’ve been to that dungeon for the thirtieth time.  Beyond your tactics and the traps themselves, without a DM or ampc, the majority of interaction with a dungeon is killing it.  There are some like the vestibule where you can have an interest in going back time and again for different books and I’d love if tbe library of Thoth dropped some to have more interesting lore bits revealed but unfortunately you can’t just pull books off the shelves without a dm.  Everything else aside if you waste less time finding an appropriate mechanical challenge, you can get back to other RP with members of your group (or new people) who werent there.

[Tohuvabohu]

I've played on this server for about 5 years now, so here is what I'll have to say:

I personally do not dungeon all the time. My time is valuable, so when I log in I prefer to roleplay. PoTM as a server has consistently loved to waste my time over the years and now time is not as easy for me to come by as it once was. Last night I logged into the mist camp and found little roleplay that I found engaging and thus I stood and waited for an hour for the sun to rise so I could return to Barovia and log out. The day prior I logged on in the evening and found a high level had soloed the dungeon I wanted to do with the party I had formed icly for xp, ruining the spawn and wasting my time again. I also found that multiple other spots throughout the next 2 hours were also being done and I only managed to complete one dungeon after staying up long into the evening.

I find that being able mechanically progress on top of my roleplay is a satisfying experience, taking the effort for 30 minutes of travel time to a dungeon on top of roleplay that occurs, only to find that the dungeon provides little to no mechanical reward for me is just a disappointing waste of my time on an ooc level. The roleplay I had was valuable, but if I had set out only to roleplay that evening, then I would have easily accomplished it with less time being wasted.

The developers have set up this server to be oppressive on both an IC and OOC level and I'll usually go and find better things to do if I'm unable to accomplish what I set out to do in game within a reasonable time-frame for my life and priorities.

I suppose my point is, is that it would make people's time investment a lot more respected and meaningful if there were small quality of life changes such as this, especially for the low level dungeons on this server. The low level experience on this server is terrible.

[William Roberts]

The “perspective” you’re offering is “it’s always been like this so why improve the playing experience for others?” So it does feel entirely like it’s trolling.  Especially when you do like to often take an abrasive stance in almost every thread you post in it seems like.

First, discussing a post's content seldom requires any rhetoric such as what I've underlined above. That is basically a personal attack--and will almost always lead to more heat than light. As rebutting it requires proof of a negative, it's usually unfair as well as off topic.

Second, I do not see anything in Day Old Bread's post that could be paraphrased as "“it’s always been like this so why improve the playing experience for others?" so alleging such as a quotation seems dishonest and a strawman tactic.

What he wrote: "There are times when I do look for low spawn dungeons." That says nothing like how you've quoted him. The post previous, he offered some very specific suggestions for dealing with the current spawn system. You might examine Cody's response to his suggestions for a more give-and-take (and, therefore, productive) form of discussion.

...

The first time you go into a new place and you’re looking through it and clicking all the little lore dumps it might be fine and fun exploring on a low spawn, but that quickly dissolves when you’ve been to that dungeon for the thirtieth time.

The rub is that not everyone is going through these dungeons for the same reason. (Some may indeed be going through it for the first time.) And that's what he's trying to state about "perspective." If you say you don't like spicy food, and he says he likes it hotter the better, I hope you wouldn't assume he's trolling or being abrasive. It's called honest disagreement, differing tastes.

As to the topic, any change to an ecosystem can affect all its inhabitants. It is easy for those who want the change to see those making counterpoints as wanting things to be arbitrarily difficult for them. In terms of a community, consider what you bring to the community as an inhabitant. Those who like a certain style of play may have had unpleasant experiences caused by those who prefer another. Their community "way of life" they might then begin to see as threatened.

Being belligerent toward them and trying to force changes upon them--especially by dismissing their concerns out of hand--is less likely for them to want to make life easier for you or want others like you to increase in number in the community. 

The server is a shared resource, and these discussions would be more positive and helpful to the Devs by keeping that fact in mind when arguing for and against changes that affect everyone.

[DoctorLuxo]

I don't really have a problem with the current system. It can be a bother when you don't find a dungeon max spawn mostly because of the loot table, but xp-wise I never had any concerns. Depending on blind drive status, you tend to get more exp with RP.

That being said, I do understand that with certain parties and for people who can log only during busy hours it can be a pain so in the end... idk?

[Tohuvabohu]

I want to also say that loot tables do not directly affect the monster spawn. It is the monster spawn itself that directly affects the loot tables that appear in the dungeon.

[myrddraal]

We have had plenty of other quality of life changes that help to reduce player wasted time.  The change of condensing the crafting system is one of the biggest ones I can think of with the skill cap being lowered from I think it was 100 down to I believe the current cap is 50, with specific sub crafts lowered as well to be able to create more useful items more quickly.

Loot is already tied to how often you run a dungeon as one if it’s larger factors, and ninja looting (there are so many beguilers) has already dropped the prices on a lot of formerly rare items.  Naming a few examples of loot that used to be “stable” prices like deep shadow strikes and slayers robes that used to be like 10-15k you can barely even give away.  Another moderately decent piece that’s dropped significantly are things like gobalski bracers which used to be pretty standard like 40k+ are now going for like 8k.  The economy is already flooding with “rarer” useful loot.  I don’t think making spawns consistent would change what the influx of ninja looters already hasn’t done.

The experience system already hard caps how much you can gain mechanically from adventuring.  At a certain point if all you do is grind dungeons, which is very few people, you will gain no experience or rare loot.  Both of those systems work wonderfully to help prevent power gaming and endless farming.  Especially when as someone mentioned before high level players WILL storm through low level areas like a hurricane and destroy all of the content intended for lower levels just for crafting materials.  Having spawns be consistent would waste nobodies time for whatever reason they are headed to that particular dungeon (be it materials to craft, experience, ninja looting) probably be easier for server performance to simply check if mobs are there yes/no if players aren’t present, and overall improve people’s enjoyment of the game.

When I feel like playing a 20+ year old game solely for the intention of being a sweaty neck beard who wants to just deny pixels to people I’ll play project 1999 and wait the 16 hour spawn window for dragons.