Author Topic: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight  (Read 10345 times)

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 7236
Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« on: March 15, 2024, 07:16:00 PM »
Hi. So I've been asked to provide a teaser on what I am currently working on for the next Hak update (which isn't due any time soon btw and has no ETA, so curb your enthusiasm). I thought that this time I might release my plans earlier so that you have your word to say about it before it hits the test server. It is my pleasure to present you the Avenger Knight prestige class.

Outrageous! MAB this is NOT a P&P prestige class! Where are your standards?

Well... yes and no. It is in fact the Knight of the Shadows prestige class from Van Richten's Arsenal, supplemented with some abilities salvaged from the Blessed Defender prestige class from Heroes of Light. On their own these PrCs are lackluster, and have requirements or abilities we can't implement in-game. But the concept of what they represent has always been something I'd like to see more represented in game: holy warriors empowered by a furious need for vengeance instead of faith. So I mashed them together in a form I hope you would find interesting. It goes as follows.

Avenger Knight

(PRESTIGE CLASS)
The Avenger Knight is a warrior willing to take a stand against evil in the world with the same conviction and dedication as a paladin. It selflessly seeks to protect the virtuous, destroy monstrous beings, and avenge those wronged by the forces of darkness. It is pledged to the destruction of evil, be it a powerful being, a fell organization, a dangerous artifact, etc. Unlike paladins, it is unfettered by ethical concerns regarding law and chaos but always acts with the greater good in mind. Such a knight tries to set an example by performing good deeds wherever he goes and will steadfastly refuse to ally oneself with anyone known to perform evil acts. It's a life on the run as one is bound to make powerful enemies in its crusade. The powers of the Avenger Knight come from its indomitable resolve and unflinching dedication to the cause.

WARNING: To cast a spell, an avenger knight must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. For example, to cast a 4th-level spell, an avenger knight must have a Wisdom of 14.

- Base Attack Bonus: +1 / Level.
- Hit Die: d10.
- Primary Saving Throws: Fortitude
- Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
- Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier.
- Spellcasting: Divine (Wisdom-based, spell failure from armor is ignored).
- Ex-Avenger Knight: An avenger knight that is no longer good loses all class spells and abilities, and cannot gain levels until its alignment is good again. An avenger knight may also fall from grace by willingly allying with evil people.

Class Skills: Antagonize, Concentration, Discipline, Disguise, Heal, Hide, Influence, Lore, Move Silently, Parry, Spellcraft.
Unavailable Skills: Animal Empathy, Use Magic Device.

REQUIREMENTS:
Alignment: Any good
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Lore 4 ranks
Feats: Courage, Dead Man Walking, Expertise

ABILITIES:

Level
1: Guardian of Innocence I - +1 to all saving throws.
  Virtue is its Own Reward I - +1 to Lore and Influence skills.
2: Improved Expertise.
3: Virtue is its Own Reward II - +2 to Lore and Influence skills.
4: Sacred Alliance I - +1 bonus to attack and on all saving throws vs fear, +2 enhancement bonus on primary weapons or gloves to self and allies.
5: Guardian of Innocence II - +2 to all saving throws.
  Virtue is its Own Reward III - +3 to Lore and Influence skills.
6: Uncanny Dodge I - Retain Dexterity bonus to AC, even when flat-footed.
7: Virtue is its Own Reward IV - +4 to Lore and Influence skills.
8: Sacred Alliance II - Weapon EB increased to +3, 1d8 temporary hit points gained.
  Healing Circle - Healing Circle spell can be cast 3x/day.
9: Virtue is its Own Reward V - +5 to Lore and Influence skills.
10: Guardian of Innocence III - +3 to all saving throws.
  Damage Reduction V - Ignore 5 physical damage per hit.

Spellcasting:

As per the original Knight of the Shadows PrC.

1st   2nd   3rd   4th
0         
1         
1   0      
1   1      
1   1   0   
1   1   1   
2   1   1   0
2   1   1   1
2   2   1   1
2   2   2   1

1st: Bless, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary.
2nd: Aid, Darkness, Invisibility, Ultravision*, Undetectable Alignment*
3rd: Displacement, Haste, Magic Circle against Alignment, Negative Energy Protection, Prayer.
4th: Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Improved Invisibility, Greater Magic Weapon, Shadow Conjuration

* Not in the usual Knight of the Shadows selection, but chosen for their thematic to shore up the amount of spell options for that level.


One falls from grace and loses all benefits of this prestige class if ceasing to be of good alignment.

Guardian of Innocence
At 1st level, the Avenger Knight gets a +1 bonus to all saving throws. This raises to +2 at 5th level, and +3 at 10th level.

Virtue is its Own Reward
Through its deeds, an avenger knight earns a reputation as a champion of good allowing one to exert a greater influence on others and facilitating the acquisition of knowledge. At 1st level, the Avenger Knight gains a +1 bonus to the Influence & Lore skills, increasing by +1 every 2 Avenger Knight levels.

Defender's Edge
At 2nd level, the Avenger Knight gains the benefit of the Improved Expertise feat.

Sacred Alliance
The Avenger knight can invoke this mystical ability to grant himself and all allies standing within 10' a +1 bonus to attack rolls, a +1 bonus on will saves against fear, and a +2 enhancement bonus to their primary weapons, or gloves if unarmed. Upon reaching level 8, this ability also provides a temporary 1d8 hit points and increases the weapon enhancement bonus to +3. The effect lasts for 1 Hour + 1 Turn per caster level.

Defensive Awareness
At 6th level, the Avenger Knight gains the benefit of the Uncanny Dodge I feat.

Healing Circle
At 8th level, the Avenger Knight can cast the Healing Circle spell three times a day.

Damage Reduction V
At 10th level, the Avenger Knight ignores 5 physical damage per hit.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2024, 11:20:24 PM by MAB77 »
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Old Svalich Stradă, Castle Ravenloft, Barovia

RedMoney

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1069
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2024, 07:47:08 PM »
I'd play it. Looks like a not-weak PrC and a better fit for the setting than the classic Paladin. Will it be app-gated?
Currently playing: Si Feisong (ShamanVsAllClasses)

bloodless

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2420
  • ?
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2024, 07:53:07 PM »

myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2024, 07:59:00 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character

Spazzer

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
  • Greater Spell Focus: Cringe
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2024, 08:06:25 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character

Is it though? It's good for what it is yes, but at the BAB requirement, you gather everything in the class rather late and many of it's features are mimicked by other classes, or can be potioned.

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 7236
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2024, 08:10:20 PM »
Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character

The application on a Prestige class is not because of the class strength but because of the specific roleplay requirements that comes with them. This one only requires a character to do good deeds. It,s not app gate worthy. Now if you feel it is crazy strong, the point of the post is to discuss it and tweak it before it hits the test server.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Old Svalich Stradă, Castle Ravenloft, Barovia

myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2024, 08:10:41 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character

Is it though? It's good for what it is yes, but at the BAB requirement, you gather everything in the class rather late and many of it's features are mimicked by other classes, or can be potioned.

6 is not that high.  Any good aligned fighter, paladin (who I assume can take it) ranger, barbarian, can take it at level 7.  3/4 BAB classes can take it at level 8 and the class gets 5 DR (better than adamantine armor!) +3 to all saves and if I am reading it correctly free improved expertise?  This is head and shoulders stronger than divine champion who also is a prestige class with comparable requirements and way stronger than blackguard, assassin, or palemaster which are all app required.

AND its full BAB?

Should other prestige classes be buffed is a better question if this goes in as is.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:13:43 PM by myrddraal »

remnar

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
  • kill, corpsehide, girlboss
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2024, 08:11:03 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character
paladin isn't app locked and it too is crazy strong

myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2024, 08:17:29 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character
paladin isn't app locked and it too is crazy strong

Paladins dont get free five damage reduction, 3 universal saves, free improved expertise and free uncanny dodge.  Coupled with extra spells they otherwise would miss going divine champion instead (effectively losing no spells) you would be dumb not to take this class if it wasnt app gated.  It puts literally all other prestige classes to SHAME barring maybe shadowdancer who get HIPS.

Hell it also gets spellcraft as a class skill to pump its saves even higher.

If this class is not app gated - neither should any of the other ones be imo.  It is THAT powerful.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:19:32 PM by myrddraal »

remnar

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
  • kill, corpsehide, girlboss
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2024, 08:19:25 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character
paladin isn't app locked and it too is crazy strong

Paladins dont get free five damage reduction, 3 universal saves, free improved expertise and free uncanny dodge.  Coupled with extra spells they otherwise would miss going divine champion instead (effectively losing no spells) you would be dumb not to take this class if it wasnt app gated.  It puts literally all other prestige classes to SHAME barring maybe shadowdancer who get HIPS
well again, classes arent app gated for their power but for their RP whatevers
paladin already exists and requires no app, so a PRC with a similar vibe isn't going to be an RP problem, since it will be dealt with in the same way as the paladin
if they wanted to app this class, they would probably also app paladin

Famous Seamus

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 711
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2024, 08:22:11 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character
paladin isn't app locked and it too is crazy strong

So, love the class idea, but it's mechanically very, very strong. Yeah, the "can't ally with evil characters" restriction is big, but it's going to require a DM to monitor it, which isn't likely.

This class combines numerous benefits of fighters, clerics, wizards, and rogues with very few drawbacks. I'll need to think about it more, but some dialing back seems in order. There'd be absolutely no reason for anyone to go full 20 paladin ever again other than RP.

EDIT: To put it in perspective, I've been playing a paladin consistently for the past four IRL years, and I would gladly have my character punch Strahd in the mouth and accept all the consequences that come with it to go back to level 10 and take this PrC. Get that spell list and ability roster while also keeping my character's paladin abilities? Yes, please.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:25:58 PM by Famous Seamus »


myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2024, 08:23:45 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character
paladin isn't app locked and it too is crazy strong

Paladins dont get free five damage reduction, 3 universal saves, free improved expertise and free uncanny dodge.  Coupled with extra spells they otherwise would miss going divine champion instead (effectively losing no spells) you would be dumb not to take this class if it wasnt app gated.  It puts literally all other prestige classes to SHAME barring maybe shadowdancer who get HIPS
well again, classes arent app gated for their power but for their RP whatevers
paladin already exists and requires no app, so a PRC with a similar vibe isn't going to be an RP problem, since it will be dealt with in the same way as the paladin
if they wanted to app this class, they would probably also app paladin

A class this powerful absolutely should be app locked.  You SHOULD have to demonstrate you actually demonstrate the values of the class for this one - just like a palemaster needs to show they do necromancy, study the dead, commit depraved acts for their power, how blackguards need to show how EVIL they are and willing to do anything to gain power, how assassins can and do murder for hire.

If you want to draw the most direct comparison - it is like a "good" blackguard.  Which is app gated.  And NOWHERE near as strong.  On top of all the other goodies it also has REALLY good spells to buff itself.  Its WAY too powerful.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:26:41 PM by myrddraal »

RedMoney

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1069
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2024, 08:25:12 PM »
I'd say that the reason this class looks particularly strong is that it looks -very- easy to solo with.
Currently playing: Si Feisong (ShamanVsAllClasses)

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 7236
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2024, 08:26:50 PM »
This is head and shoulders stronger than divine champion [...]

Divine Champions gets 10 bonus feats vs 3 for the Avenger Knight, and need only invest in 1 feat vs 3 for the other prestige class. This means the Divine champion player has the leasury of picking 9 feats to make up for any perceived deficiency with the other PrC. Divine Champion also reaches higher saves and has a higher potential to hurt evil beings. Many of the Avenger Knight spells can be obtained through potions, and failing that UMD scrolls. The lore and Influence bonuses are largely inconsequential and there for RP reasons more than anything. Sacred Alliance is their only truly unique ability. There is not a shadow of a doubt that for a melee PrC Divine Champion still outshines the Avenger Knight.

But what the Avenger Knight has that the Divine Champion does not is that it is not tied to a faith or deity. This opens up RP options.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Old Svalich Stradă, Castle Ravenloft, Barovia

Revenant

  • Noot Noot
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2024, 08:34:07 PM »
Will it be app-gated?
No.

Should it be?  Its CRAZY strong.  Way stronger than PRCs like PM or assassin which are app gated for a melee character
paladin isn't app locked and it too is crazy strong

So, love the class idea, but it's mechanically very, very strong. Yeah, the "can't ally with evil characters" restriction is big, but it's going to require a DM to monitor it, which isn't likely.

This class combines numerous benefits of fighters, clerics, wizards, and rogues with very few drawbacks. I'll need to think about it more, but some dialing back seems in order. There'd be absolutely no reason for anyone to go full 20 paladin ever again other than RP.

I won't talk much about the class, balance is mostly whatever - however, 20 paladin remains very very strong. I would take the spellcasting from 20 paladin over this class most of the time, I think - Holy Sword is the immediate coup there, but there's other heaters in the higher levels too. 

I am surprised to see this allowed to Paladins, particularly without an app, considering past restrictions on PrCs cared about risking them getting access to stealth with a much less useful set of features attached (Monster Hunter) or about getting access to more power in general (Weapon Master, though that's only arguably as strong as a full 20 Paladin).

The class isn't weak, don't get me wrong, but not an auto-take. I also think if you're allowing Avenger Knight you should reconsider Weapon Master and Monster Hunter for Paladin access. I think I have a post somewhere in my history laying out my thoughts on that, from around the time PrCs went open season.
Vicerimus Mortem.

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 7236
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2024, 08:34:10 PM »
[...] If you want to draw the most direct comparison - it is like a "good" blackguard.  Which is app gated.  And NOWHERE near as strong.  On top of all the other goodies it also has REALLY good spells to buff itself.  Its WAY too powerful.

Again, application requirements are not about the strength of a class. Would the Avenger Knight require to make a pact with a celestial being, like a blackguard needs to do with a fiend, or for an assassin to fulfill a contract killing, it too would be app gated. It's just not the case here.

Mind you, if the majority wants it to be app gated, I'll be happy to oblige.

//Addendum: In my original proposal to the Dev team, it came with the obligation to pledge oneself to the destruction of a great evil, but if we learned anything from the BPA is that such requirement is nearly impossible to follow in game, so it was waived.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:37:29 PM by MAB77 »
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Old Svalich Stradă, Castle Ravenloft, Barovia

myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2024, 08:41:30 PM »
Options not tied to dieties are fine.  Great even!  But for example a paladin taking this prestige class (without an app lock) can take it with almost no actual loss in investment aside from dead man walking as a feat which has no other prerequisites.  They're already taking expertise.  They get courage for free at level 2.  A few lore points is trivial to invest.  Sure - you get more feats as divine champion - but all the other benefits out weigh them and you can easily build a stronger character.  Having spellcraft as a class skill gives them more saves from spells than a divine champion will have cross class investing.  They also get enough skill points that they arent making any real painful choices in the way of skills.  They get more than the comparable paladin, divine champion, and blackguard as well!  Plus they get STEALTH?  With 14 int (pretty standard.  They need at least 13 for expertise anyway!) they'd get 6 skill points a level and could have no trouble keeping up on discipline, parry, move silent, hide, spellcraft and even have some left over!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:43:10 PM by myrddraal »

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 7236
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2024, 08:45:35 PM »
[...]I am surprised to see this allowed to Paladins, particularly without an app, considering past restrictions on PrCs cared about risking them getting access to stealth with a much less useful set of features attached (Monster Hunter) or about getting access to more power in general (Weapon Master, though that's only arguably as strong as a full 20 Paladin).

The class isn't weak, don't get me wrong, but not an auto-take. I also think if you're allowing Avenger Knight you should reconsider Weapon Master and Monster Hunter for Paladin access. I think I have a post somewhere in my history laying out my thoughts on that, from around the time PrCs went open season.

Rule as written as per the source material, Paladins are allowed to multiclass freely in both the Knight of the Shadows and Blessed Defender prestige classes. I doubt it will be a popular option though. A full paladin gets access to more spell slots and better buffing spells.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Old Svalich Stradă, Castle Ravenloft, Barovia

Primeape

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2024, 08:49:50 PM »
Judging based on the preface only, an alternative of the pure Paladin and perhaps the Divine Champion. I do see there is a lot of flavour for multiple types of different character builds for different roleplaying paths that might be missed with a pure Paladin or taking the Divine Champion with similar multiclassing-division, hell, you could even take divine champion with this one at the same time and not feel particularly bad.

I mean I could see taking this class all the way to the maximum level 10 because of the pinnacle feat at the end. I couldn't really justify the same decision for many other prestige-class of the melee variety.

I can see the argument, when comparing with other similar class-choices, for the better options of class-bonuses, it has some strong boons.

But speaking purely as a choice of flavour and comparable power in comparison to mayby the Paladin with its particular type of class fantasy, yes, I do like the Avenging Knight as an alternative if I don't like to play a Paladin.

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2024, 08:50:38 PM »
I don't actually think this class is that strong. It's sort of a mix between monster hunter and divine champion, really. I think a bard / divine champion is literally better than any possible Avenger Knight combination.

Does the Uncanny Dodge mean its class levels will be treated as defender levels to avoid sneak attack damage when being flanked is the only condition, if they have Uncanny Dodge II from other sources? Probably not.

Sacred Alliance seems, convenient, to save people on using varnishes. Will it affect mainhand and offhand weapons equally? The Greater Magic Weapon will only be a +2, or will it consider ranger & paladin levels to add to caster level?

Healing circle seems convenient for rescuing downed, separated or invisible allies.

I wish it had purple dragon knights' Heroic Shield, scripted properly so it persisted for distance proximity. Or any of the class features for the base class "Knight" that affect creature AI. Or Constant / Dutiful Guardian feats over Improved Expertise.

I also wish Shadow Shield was on this and Hexblade. People will dab a UMD class on their Avenger PrC to scroll-access this *custom NWN only* spell 9 times out of 10.

Think Ranger / MH / Avenger Knight will be popular?

~~

The class doesn't lack for flavour but, I don't know. It sort of falls short of some expectations for new classes & abilities I had hopes for when I saw the name followed by a premise it'd be unique to PotM.

I mean look at my username, I love Shadow themed things, protection through the good qualities of darkness, but this isn't quite there. There was a cool sorcerer in a book I read that defended folks from the searing light of misguided justice by blanketing the land with darkness.

Shadows as a shield is an awesome concept but you're missing all the shields.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 08:54:28 PM by zDark Shadowz »

myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2024, 08:51:11 PM »
Judging based on the preface only, an alternative of the pure Paladin and perhaps the Divine Champion. I do see there is a lot of flavour for multiple types of different character builds for different roleplaying paths that might be missed with a pure Paladin or taking the Divine Champion with similar multiclassing-division, hell, you could even take divine champion with this one at the same time and not feel particularly bad.

I mean I could see taking this class all the way to the maximum level 10 because of the pinnacle feat at the end. I couldn't really justify the same decision for many other prestige-class of the melee variety.

I can see the argument, when comparing with other similar class-choices, for the better options of class-bonuses, it has some strong boons.

But speaking purely as a choice of flavour and comparable power in comparison to mayby the Paladin with its particular type of class fantasy, yes, I do like the Avenging Knight as an alternative if I don't like to play a Paladin.

Thats the other thing - you could also throw divine champion in on top of this class and pump saves EVEN HIGHER.

Revenant

  • Noot Noot
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2024, 08:51:53 PM »
I mean, the responses already suggest that it will be popular and that people think it might even be optimal (it won't be, though I guess that's always subjective based on what you're optimizing for). And FWIW I don't personally think that it's a problem for a Paladin to have access to Stealth, particularly in Ravenloft - we're not at 1e Gygaxian `sorry if u ever do anything but loudly shout yourself to death at any enemy, u fall!!` levels of lawful stupid boringness.

I'm well aware of the source material on Knights of Shadows. I'm mostly using it to draw parallel to the fact that neither Weapon Master nor Monster Hunter are problematic for the class and both offer refreshing takes/angles on a Paladin, just like this class, and are within acceptable power parameters.
Vicerimus Mortem.

RedMoney

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1069
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2024, 08:54:09 PM »
Haste is the big one, you can just save all your 3 and 4 level spell slots for haste/extended haste and not need a party, especially with +2/3 enchantment to your weapon as a class feature.

As for app gating, I support not app gating any PrCs so a big no to that.
Currently playing: Si Feisong (ShamanVsAllClasses)

Revenant

  • Noot Noot
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2024, 09:02:45 PM »
Haste is the big one, you can just save all your 3 and 4 level spell slots for haste/extended haste and not need a party, especially with +2/3 enchantment to your weapon as a class feature.

As for app gating, I support not app gating any PrCs so a big no to that.

See, to me this is quality of life rather than power. Like, Holy Sword scrolls are a hell of a lot more rare than Haste Pots and +3 Varnishes. It's a bit like Assassin (except that some of the class features are actually useful) - your spellbook exists mostly to save you a few hundred gold in consumables for when you "need" to solo. Even then, you're getting to the "good" stuff fairly late and you're not going to have a lot of slots for it.

AoE GMW will certainly be appreciated by the party, on top of its other benefits. Again, not weak. Just a really far cry from busted.
Vicerimus Mortem.

myrddraal

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
Re: Upcoming PrC: The Avenger Knight
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2024, 09:05:36 PM »
the damage reduction 5 alone is a level 19 barbarian feature lol.  It basically picks all the best features and skills that anyone could want on a rogue multiclass anything.