Author Topic: New Base Class - Shaman  (Read 2880 times)

Maiyannah

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2023, 01:34:42 PM »
It is possible to replicate these effects by creating appropriate feats for the respective bonuses and awarding them at the respective level as bonus feats.  You can ensure they're not takeable but only used for bonus by setting ALLCLASSESCANUSE to false, and then make the respective min level and class the level you get it as a bonus feat and the shaman class.
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Maverick

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2023, 01:46:40 PM »
I think if their spirit summons were taken out of their spell lists and be given as a class feature in addition to their spells, such as how a BG gets his summons, that would go a long way.

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MAB77

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2023, 01:54:43 PM »
We are veering a bit off topic here. To be honest your comments and comparisons of the shaman to the cleric or voodan class were totally expected and do not come as a surprise, but they are also not for this thread. This is a discussion we will hold later. The goal is still to bring the tabletop experience to the module and this it, the shaman as closely as we can make it with the current game engine limitations.

We know its not identical, we know its missing a key feature still. But we'd rather start with the version we have now and build on it later. It should still be a fun class to play as is. Right now, we are concerned with the mechanical aspects of the new features/spells to make sure they work as intended without bugs. I will ask each of you to restrict your future comments to that aspect, or about Guide to Patron Spirits. This is what we need to complete and release the HAK. Especially if we want it ready for the NCE.

At this point we will not add any new features. This is far too late in the process to add new things to it, but we are already thinking of options and features for the next HAK update. It is also best to see how it performs on the server for a while. Then we can have the discussion and see what the future holds.
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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2023, 05:06:01 PM »
Among the things needing more testing: clerical domains with powers dependant on the character level to make sure they account for shaman levels.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2023, 05:13:16 PM »
I'm generally ok with a new class coming out not being the most powerful thing ever in one particular category. The gacha trend of releasing something overpowered and nerfing it little by little is not fit for an RP server. I would rather see this class adjusted up from where it is, if it seems to need that, but after some time has already passed. Voodan was believed to be dead useless and turned out to be one of the most overpowered classes on the server. This may not have as much frontloaded power, but I personally see its multiclass potential as good, since level 16+ capstones aren't interesting to me. They make the field of character capability too predictable and I find that it boxes people in; it's very anti-RP. Let's see where it stands after a few months of people playing various builds, MAB has already confirmed it will get more later on.
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umtic

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2023, 05:31:35 PM »
I tried to create a dwarf Spirit Shaman on the test server, but it seems corrupt. I tried dwarfs three times, with different domains. I then tried the exact same build with a halfling, and the (almost) same build with a human, with no errors.

According to the combat log, an illegal feat was detected. The feat I took on level 1 for the five builds (three dwarfs, one human, one halfling) was Luck of Heroes. Other than that, the broken builds only had the normal dwarven feats. The feat list is :
Additional Actions, targeted
Animal Companion
Armor Proficiency (light)
Battle Training vs Giants, Goblins, Orcs
Darkvision
Disarm
Dwarf
Hardness vs Poison, Spells
Improved Unarmed Strike
Knockdown
Luck of Heroes
Skill Affinity (Lore)
Stonecunning
Weapon Proficiency (Dwarf)
Weapon Proficiency (simple)

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umtic

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2023, 06:21:18 PM »
I took Strength and War domains on a human Shaman. The War Domain Power shows correctly on the radial menu, but not the Strength.
The war Domain is scaling correctly with level, and all the bonus spells from each domain were available at the right level.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 06:31:49 PM by umtic »
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HouseOfLament

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2023, 06:32:32 PM »
The implementation of (spirit) shaman on NWN2 features spontaneous casting and the druid spell list.  It would be really cool to see the class go that route as opposed to becoming closer to cleric. 
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Kireek

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2023, 06:43:42 PM »
So a review of the class after 40 minutes of playing around with it and looking at it so to speak. This class is notorious in 3rd edition circles, though maybe 2 decades has dulled the senses for how bad this class was when it came out originally. Only the Wu Jen class from Oriental adventures saw any real respect from the wider community, Shaman was a bad class in a bad book for goodness sakes, so the class needs tons of help just to be viable- even in regular tabletop, working as intended, it is one of the worst 9th level casters. Oriental Adventures is Complete Warrior quality when it comes to class quality- which is to say terrible.

Problem 1: Feat Tax/No Cats- The Shaman has amazing feats, I tinkered until 11, every level except 8 had a feat, great stuff. The problem is that in order for the class to be viable defeinsivly and fight like an off-fighter like most divine casters should- the class needs either cats grace or heavy armor proficient. This is not a soft requirement, this is just to make a character who is able and viable to not get rolled over as a divine caster. If the character was meant to be more of a divine caster, then there is a class called uh... not artificer.. Erudite? its like wizard but for divine casters that would be appropriate. This is NOT what the shaman is. It needs one of these 2 things. Pick your poision. If you want this class to be viable, you have to pick one to give to the class.

Problem 2: The best spell of the class is def the spirit summoning ability, this spell was basically a swiss army knife in the Table top, but had a lot of pray your DM isn't horrible problems. This basically made it into a slightly better summon. The problem is that the duration is crap, the thing about the original spell is the spirit was permanent until it finished it's task- within reason. So the fact the spell lasts at most like 3 minutes is just not accurate to the spell duration at all. It should be lasting for at least 10 rounds + 1 turn per spell level for example. If you want this class to exist as the summoning class, this duration issue needs to get resolved, hard. CLEARLY this summon is a major component of the class, it occupies spell slot levels where there isn't a lot of competition for good spells, (except stoneskin mind.. but domains), and has unique AI/spell casting features. So the fact that the class can't take full advantage of fthis feature it looks like a lot of effort went into.. leaves a lot to be desired.

Problem 3: A lot of the unique spells just have too short duration. Clarify/Clairowhatever, make you basically immune to a number of mind effecting spells, a +4 will save is not immunity, people still gotta roll, so why not make it 1 hour + turn per level? It isn't THAT Good of a spell, especially considering the class doesn't have that much else going for it.

Problem 4. Skills- This is actually kind of a suprise, see, the server basically requires expertise. Now I know people will go, no it doesn't.. To which I respond, if your a divine caster that might get in melee, you need expertise. Its a requirement, we all know this. So that means you need 13 int, which most people will raise to 14. The class skin list is litertally so barren that with 14 int, you can take every single skill on the list. The class needs more class skills. You might be able to make up for some of the class deficencies if you were to include tumble and animal empathy, which would make this class have some real strengths over the other divine casters. Imagine playing a sithican elf that starts with 16 int like I did, that means I have 1 more skill point per level than I can actually spend on class skills, thats bananas to me.

Problem 5: The summon spirit spells need to make it more clear what feats actually work with them, in the spell description, up front. (We need to come back to this btw), the spirits are undead, but by this point, you the player, have have received at least 6 feats, it is VERY likely the player would of taken some of the feats needed to use the spirit.

Bug 1: NONE of the summon feats work with spirits. None of them. Period. At all. I took both  cold damage feats, my undead does not do cold damage. I took both increase str feats, nothing. This is clearly not working as intended.

Bug2. I somehow got dwarf racial qualities on my character, I have no idea how this happened? It might be a shaman thing... I am playing a Silvanesti Elf on the test server, so that was weird to see.

Bug 3. You can take turn undead feats before you actually get the turn undead class feature.

IN short- Recommendations:
1. Medium armor proficency & shield, get rid of unarmed feat to compensate- OR- cats grace as a 3rd(!) level spell. NO mass cats. Or make a similar spell to rams might for the shaman, but for dex instead. If you don't do this, this becomes the literal definition of MAD, it has 0 unimportant stats, every stat needs to be above 10 to get full benefit from the class, and most need to be 14 or higher (dex, int, wis, and maybe con)
2.The Classes main best aspect- this cool summon isn't getting its time to shine, its.. okay.. the AC is.. okay.. The health is decent, it can fight well enough. The class would really benefit from spells like Iron bones being given to the class to help make the summon a little more durable. The damage of the summon itself is.. adequate, but only because it loves power attacking everything. When it isn't power attacking the damage/bab leaves a lot to be desired, and so it is heavily reliant on using its supernatural attacks. Which you can't count on it doing at the right time, so again, the spirit doesn't need to hit like a truck, it just needs to SURVIVE, so perhaps it would be best to embrace making the spirit be tankier, more defensive, and give the class spells to assist in that. Basically- The summon needs to clean house, or needs to have a super long duration, it isn't good enough or long lasting enough to justify either situation atm. I think having the spirit have crazy endurance/duration would be the adjustments to the spirit that are needed.
3. A lot of the buffs need their durations increased. +4 to will saves is good, but not game breaking. Especially with spells like mindblank out there basically making this spell irrelevant at higher levels.
4. More class skills. Hide, Move Silently, Animal Empathy, Tumble would all be appropriate skills to give the class.

If ALL of these were done to the class, it would absoltuely be a viable class, and one I would actually think could go far. It wouldn't be AS strong as a Favored Soul, or as versatile and great at buffing as Voodan, but what it could be is a defensive/tanking powerhouse with some unique things the class can bring to the table.

There have been some suggestions to give the class weapon specs for unarmed. I mean yah, that also works, and i wouldn't mind that, but let me point out the class was considered bad, working as it was written in the books. +6 to damage on a class that requires STR, Dex, Wis, Some Con, Some Cha, and 14 int.. I mean come on.

OH and if there is any difference in how the spirits work? Let the shaman pick which one they want on the situation. Don't pigeon hole all shamans into being forced to take specific spirits. If the spirit stuff is all cosmetic, then great, ignore this, but it if isn't, let the players pick..

« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 07:32:43 PM by Kireek »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2023, 06:48:44 PM »
The implementation of (spirit) shaman on NWN2 features spontaneous casting and the druid spell list.  It would be really cool to see the class go that route as opposed to becoming closer to cleric.

I think these are actually separate classes entirely, but I would also like to see that one since I like druid but not spellbooks.
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Kireek

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2023, 07:18:49 PM »
I used one level 6 spirit, and one level 4 spirit against 2 ancient dire bears, buffed, in succession.. 1 bear survived near death. It was a real long fight, the bears had a hard time dealing with the concealment, which is intended, but the duration of the spell basically meant they won by default, which is weird considering I used several spells in prep, and then the summon spell, and the most important aspect of the Shaman class imo- and still ended up losing. I think the damage output can be tamped down a bit, get rid of its power attack, but the spell duration needs to be upped a ton, I'm investing tons of resources to make this spirit work, can I please have it stick around for an entire fight?

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2023, 07:41:21 PM »
Don't forget that soloing isn't the intention of summons. Just imagine if you had used them either as tanks or as flanks with a real melee pit or even assisting one other character. They will never be the ultimate in this server, since if you buff them they can just disappear. There are times when they can excel but not on their own.
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gesseritt

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2023, 08:01:48 PM »
Problem 2: The best spell of the class is def the spirit summoning ability, this spell was basically a swiss army knife in the Table top, but had a lot of pray your DM isn't horrible problems. This basically made it into a slightly better summon. The problem is that the duration is crap, the thing about the original spell is the spirit was permanent until it finished it's task- within reason. So the fact the spell lasts at most like 3 minutes is just not accurate to the spell duration at all. It should be lasting for at least 10 rounds + 1 turn per spell level for example. If you want this class to exist as the summoning class, this duration issue needs to get resolved, hard. CLEARLY this summon is a major component of the class, it occupies spell slot levels where there isn't a lot of competition for good spells, (except stoneskin mind.. but domains), and has unique AI/spell casting features. So the fact that the class can't take full advantage of fthis feature it looks like a lot of effort went into.. leaves a lot to be desired.

I used one level 6 spirit, and one level 4 spirit against 2 ancient dire bears, buffed, in succession.. 1 bear survived near death. It was a real long fight, the bears had a hard time dealing with the concealment, which is intended, but the duration of the spell basically meant they won by default, which is weird considering I used several spells in prep, and then the summon spell, and the most important aspect of the Shaman class imo- and still ended up losing. I think the damage output can be tamped down a bit, get rid of its power attack, but the spell duration needs to be upped a ton, I'm investing tons of resources to make this spirit work, can I please have it stick around for an entire fight?

100%. The coolest part about the class is its summoning ability. Its spirits should have 1 turn / level durations, which would make it basically the only viable summoning class and give it a very cool niche, easing the valid mechanical criticisms of the class and differentiating it from cleric and voodan.

Kireek

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2023, 08:19:43 PM »
If you buff the summons duration by a lot, you can even go so far as to nerf the damage a little bit, by like say 1/3, get rid of improved power attack to boot.

That solves the problem of expecting the summon to solo content, it can't actually damage much by itself, it is only meant to attract attention, and survive via its middling AC and decent concealment/hp. Keep in mind in turn that I summoned 2 spirits to do what I could of done myself by basically just buffing myself and getting stuck in. This was a 16 HD spirit  w/ buffs & some decent abilties being unable to seal the deal on 2 CR 8ish bears. And then a 8 HD spirit with buffs as well STILL being unable to seal the deal.

I'd be happy if the fight took 3-6x longer, but the level 6 spirit  won outright. The fight took forever as it is, considering it used it's entire duration from scratch.. and if someone decides they want to solo content that slowly? Well, that's just bad form on them and a huge waste of time. ANd this is a 2 on 1 situation where the Spirits AC was buffed to be just difficult enough for the bear to not hit consistently. If the spirit was put under REAL scrutnity, it'd buckle just fine.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 08:25:35 PM by Kireek »

MAB77

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2023, 09:35:26 PM »
@kireek

Again though this thread is to focus on the mechanical issues with the current built. It is not to discuss on the perceived power of the class nor proposing alternative features. It does not need to be as efficient as a cleric. It needs to be able to hold is own, and it will by virtue of being a full caster class even if they are not as powerful as other divine classes. We might adjust the spells list a little, tweak durations of spells, but we will not add or change features at this stage. That discussion will take place at later time, in preparation of the next HAK update once we had time to evaluate what truly needs to be improved on that class. And we did identify a few options that will be added in the future, but that too is for another discussion. At this time we focus on bringing it in as close as possible to the source material and fixing the current bugs to release it as promptly as can be. But I will address some of the points you brought up nonetheless, because you did bring up some pertinent points.

Problem 1: Feat Tax/No Cats

Cat's grace is obtainable by shamans through the Animal domain (and potions). And Divine Power through the Strength domain. These are at least two domains that can help you if you intend to do a battle shaman built. Not counting Improved Unrmed Fighting which admittedly will be of limited use until we can fix the unarmed damage feature (if ever, but we'd love to), the class is still granted 5 bonus feats more than most classes to use. It's not starving for feats. You can get an extra one by playing a human too. Investing to get that heavy armor proficiency in those condition will not be that bad. You don't have to pick poison, you can have both.

Problem 2: Spirit Ally duration.

The duration of summons issue is not a shaman class issue. It is a general issue born of a bigger problem of people using summons to solo content. Could the duration be extended? Maybe. I'm not inherently against that, but its not here we'll resolve this issue. But rest assured it will be debated among the dev team again.

Problem 3: A lot of the unique spells just have too short duration.

We'll revise durations and make adjustments if we feel it pertinent.

Problem 4. Skills/Expertise

I'll leave the expertise consideration to others. But it's probably the first time I hear a class needs more skills because it has too much base skill points. But we'll wait before adding any new skills. Animal Empathy is not off the table, but not for this HAK update, there are several game engine concerns and scripts to verify before we can make that happen.

Problem 5: What feats to work with spirit allies.

These are conjuration spells, so will work with the conjuration feats. But as you noted already that is bugged at this time.

Bug #2. I somehow got dwarf racial qualities on my character

I'm not even remotely touching racial settings with the shaman. You best file a bug report.

Bug #3 Turn Undead feat before level 3.

Easy fix. We'll get that sorted.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW. The following spells will be added to their spell list

- Protection from Curses
- Mass Protection from Curses
- Banishment
- Ghostly Visage
- Ethereal Visage

And maybe another new spell or two IF we manage to get it ready on time.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 06:08:39 AM by MAB77 »
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Kireek

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2023, 10:24:30 PM »
For the summon duration, if you nerf the damage into the ground so the summon can't actually kill enemies in a realistic fashion and will get overwhelmed if its surronded (as it is currently, but worse because it can't beat its opponents to death ever...) That should handle the summon duration concern somewhat. I think the exact timing/damage can be tinkered with some, but I think if the approach to the spirit isn't to make it win content, but basically be a dedicated off-tank  that relies heavily on concealment with some flashy initation- but absolutely HORRENDOUS damage.. that'd be pretty good.

As for the skill thing, yah crazy right? But with 14 int, which everyone is highly incentivzed to take, everyone will end up taking MOSTLY the same skills, (the main list), with 16 int, easily doable with a race like Sithican elves, you are forced to cross class, which I've never seen before in my life. You have so many skill points without raising int beyond 20 that you HAVE to cross class. Craaazy, Humans with 14 int also are forced to cross class, obviously.

OH! Is MAgic Fang supposed to work on the spirit? I can't tell if it is or not. The sheet for the spirit just seems really inaccurate at times, like it does 1-2 force damage, but I don't know where that is coming from for example. It also seems like it is doing more than 1d4+str,+ force, but I dunno.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 10:42:13 PM by Kireek »

Murd

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2023, 11:39:41 PM »
I think spot/listen wouldnĺt be unreasonable class skills, they are Druid skills and shaman is known to be one that sees and listens to (spirits).

MAB77

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2023, 06:19:49 AM »
For the summon duration, if you nerf the damage into the ground [...]

Making summons so weak as to be unusable in battle is not a solution either. The current setup at least allows the summons be there up to 24 hours to prepare buffs and RP with it, or until they get in battle at which point the timer kicks in. Remember a summon extended with the metamagic feat at 20th level is still around for 6 minutes. That is a lot of time to do damage around in a combat or two. Perhaps the solution is simply to not tie the duration of summons with the character level.

I think spot/listen wouldnĺt be unreasonable class skills, they are Druid skills and shaman is known to be one that sees and listens to (spirits).

Again, we're not adding skills at this time, but in this regards they have Spirit Sight that allows them to see invisible creatures.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2023, 07:30:59 AM »
Making summons so weak as to be unusable in battle is not a solution either. The current setup at least allows the summons be there up to 24 hours to prepare buffs and RP with it, or until they get in battle at which point the timer kicks in. Remember a summon extended with the metamagic feat at 20th level is still around for 6 minutes. That is a lot of time to do damage around in a combat or two. Perhaps the solution is simply to not tie the duration of summons with the character level.

I think there are a number of changes you could add for summons. The system behind them staying for essentially unlimited time without combat is great.

What if summons had some temp hp granted to them based on level, and when the timer expires, they simply become weaker by expiring that temp hp and giving them a minus to AB, saves, etc?

Just some example numbers - say 6 temp hp per level. The minus to AB, saves, etc could be -2 base and an additional -1 per 4 caster levels. So a level 12's summon eventually has a -5, a level 16's has a -6. Classes which are more capable of buffing their summons feel this penalty less but it'll still be noticeable, saves especially.

Then you can easily say they're still greatly useful in battle, but eventually you won't be able to rely on them to do the heavy lifting anymore.

Exactly the same as what we have now, but instead of just disappearing in a burst of magic, they'll linger - just be much less capable.
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Kireek

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2023, 04:52:44 PM »
The default autobuiild feature is putting skill points into cross class skills over class skills (Discpline)

It also is taking spell penetration at level 2 which.. is a bit premature. AN improtant feat to be sure, but at level 2.. I dunno.

I'd also suggest changing/reviewing the auto domain suggestions used in the quick build... it picked knowledge and repose, which are.. choices.

Level 2 SPell Pen
Level 3  Extra turning
Level 4 Greater Spell pen (on a class with pretty mediocre damage spells... oof)
Level 5 Toughness (Yay)
Level 6 Skill Focus Concentration
Level 8: Skill focus spellcraft & iron will?
Level 9: dodge
Level 11: mobility
Level 12 : improved knockdown & lightning reflexes.
Level 14: Silent SPell
Level 15: Empower spell.
Level 16 Extend
Level 17 Quicken
Level 18 ...Still Spell!?
Level 20 Great fort & maximize

I doubt anyone designing this class ad anything to do with this, but hooboy, thaz bad.

Good Summons-
Greater- Given the duration issues, the fact tat it spends 4 rounds buffing itself is kinda.. not fun.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2023, 05:33:39 PM by Kireek »

MAB77

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2023, 05:40:19 PM »
I am currently reworking the packages send suggestions in private if you'd like to help. These will be the suggestions with the clerical domains in parenthesis.

Abbber Shaman (Plant, Dream)
Cult of the Ancestors (Healing, Protection)
Cult of the Beast Totem (Animal, Strength)
Cult of the Storm Kami (Air, Travel)
Necromantic Cult (Darkness, Undeath)
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slash

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2023, 05:45:25 PM »
Yeah the class is pretty bad.

At least it's good for a level 5 dip. Here I come Hex/rogue/Shaman

Ah yes. I was expecting that kind of critics. They can't be avoided. Whenever a new class is revealed its bound to be compared to others. And, as ever, given one's playstyle it will always be either too weak for some, the worst kind of "[whatever]", overpowered in this other aspect, and usually perfectly fine to most players. And that's fine, to each is own. But truly it is in that later category that it belongs. Balancing should never be done with other overpowered classes.


I don't mean to tone police here, but this is weirdly dismissive and defensive for a thread requesting feedback. Their criticism is valid, if a bit crude.

As for the class itself, it feels pretty underwhelming to me. What about this class is supposed to stand out from the others? It borrows the companion from druids, the unarmed strike from monks, turn undead from clerics, Divine Grace from paladins. It just feels like someone put a class together from spare parts of other classes - there's nothing that says "shaman" here to me. Why does a shaman get cleric domains? Why does it get any of the stuff its given?

We've seen this one before. This doesn't really add anything and it feels like a pointless addition to the server. I just don't get why anybody would want to play a shaman besides its name (and ironically, the way it looks on paper gives me the impression that the only people who might give it a second glance are the powergamers and minmaxers you're decrying). I think Voodan does a far better job of portraying a Shaman than this class ever will.
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aliceofthevoid

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2023, 08:59:39 PM »
I am currently reworking the packages send suggestions in private if you'd like to help. These will be the suggestions with the clerical domains in parenthesis.

Abbber Shaman (Plant, Dream)
Cult of the Ancestors (Healing, Protection)
Cult of the Beast Totem (Animal, Strength)
Cult of the Storm Kami (Air, Travel)
Necromantic Cult (Darkness, Undeath)

In regards to domains, there are some Eberron faiths that I think would be appropriate for Shaman, since some of them don't venerate deities per se.

The first one that comes to mind is the Undying Court, which reveres their deathless ancestors (both corporeal and incorporeal), so I could see a Shaman as one who specializes in communing with the incorporeal ones. Good and Protection are the Court's domains as listed in the faith resources here.

Kireek

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2023, 09:11:33 PM »
May I make a suggestion for a new unique spell for the Shaman then? A spell to ressurect their animal companion at the cost of their own life force or the like? Could be good..

I'm percolating feat lists for the variants, but they all really kind of start out the same, and I dunno if you'l like them.

MAB77

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Re: New Base Class - Shaman
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2023, 10:08:31 PM »
I don't mean to tone police here, but this is weirdly dismissive and defensive for a thread requesting feedback. Their criticism is valid, if a bit crude.

As for the class itself, it feels pretty underwhelming to me. What about this class is supposed to stand out from the others? It borrows the companion from druids, the unarmed strike from monks, turn undead from clerics, Divine Grace from paladins. It just feels like someone put a class together from spare parts of other classes - there's nothing that says "shaman" here to me. Why does a shaman get cleric domains? Why does it get any of the stuff its given?

We've seen this one before. This doesn't really add anything and it feels like a pointless addition to the server. I just don't get why anybody would want to play a shaman besides its name (and ironically, the way it looks on paper gives me the impression that the only people who might give it a second glance are the powergamers and minmaxers you're decrying). I think Voodan does a far better job of portraying a Shaman than this class ever will.

I'm not dismissive, but I set the rules and they were clear. I've explained what this thread is for: testing the class on the test server to identify the remaining bugs and fix them, as well discussing the proposed guide to patron spirits.

Do not waste time in complaining that the class is weak, underwhelming, not performing as it should, does not add anything, etc. Were not here to discuss that. It is of no help whatsoever at this stage, as well as being merely opinions rather than facts. Classes do not need to be as good or better than other classes to be enjoyable. This discussion WILL take place, but after it had time to be tested thoroughly in game so keep it for later.
Best Regards!
MAB

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