Author Topic: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.  (Read 2414 times)

Spazzer

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Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« on: July 30, 2023, 07:16:00 PM »
This is probably a long time coming, but can we please remove some of the strongest demons and devils to exist from a dungeon that can be cleared by a pack of level 14s? A opinion shared by many others, it's very jarring to see these elite creatures of the lower-plane's armies just casually be cleared on a day to day basis.

The easiest way to fix this is give their stats to the lower tier demons/devils and then remove the Pit Fiends and Balors, and add a lower tier of devils to fill out the new low-tier spawn of Perfidus.

This would help keep the integrity of the power of these fiends.

Skelni

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2023, 07:45:51 PM »
I think it's reasonable, if a developer ever felt the passion to do such. But I also don't think it's completely egregious. Low priority if it warranted a change.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2023, 07:52:56 PM »
My own preference is they stayed but AB/AC increased by 15 or so and HP by 150.

Monsters to be avoided. A risk you don't want to draw the attention of unless you catch one alone with a very well-formed party.

There's not many devils below pit fiends to reasonably downgrade them to that arent already in use elsewhere, and Pit Fiends aren't the top, they're just generals. There's a variety of unique devils beyond them before we get into the leaders of the Nine.

Maybe a consequential Avatar could spawn if too many are slain? The reason one shouldn't hunt devils is it will draw the attention of whoever is higher up than them having to do more work. Killing Pit Fiends should draw some very *direct* attention.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2023, 07:58:51 PM by zDark Shadowz »

Kaninchen

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2023, 07:54:38 PM »
Better still to revamp Perf, imo.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2023, 08:00:13 PM »
NWN Pit Fiends do seem a little weak compared to their 3.5 counter parts, that's true...

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Pit_fiend

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Pit_Fiend
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Branchie

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2023, 08:14:16 PM »
+1

Pit Fiends are not your run of the mill trash mobs, they are powerful overseers and and elite. Honestly there's a few things one can use in the lower hierarchies, you can even rename to "False Pitfiends" truth be told, and make them a Mist machination.

blackpage

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2023, 08:26:17 PM »

Monsters to be avoided. A risk you don't want to draw the attention of unless you catch one alone with a very well-formed party.


Funny thing is, people just skip to the end of perfidus, and do end up skipping half the demons just to wipe Malthor and dungeon log. Dungeon needs to be looked at, should have the end locked behind some keys or atleast some effort so you can't hop to it.
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Zyemeth

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2023, 09:14:29 PM »

Monsters to be avoided. A risk you don't want to draw the attention of unless you catch one alone with a very well-formed party.


Funny thing is, people just skip to the end of perfidus, and do end up skipping half the demons just to wipe Malthor and dungeon log. Dungeon needs to be looked at, should have the end locked behind some keys or atleast some effort so you can't hop to it.

Could at least put a key on the Prisoner Slayer in order to open the doors to the final chamber?

cooachlyfe

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2023, 10:36:25 PM »
Better still to revamp Perf, imo.

+1

knuckleduster

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2023, 11:36:09 PM »
i have this same though about any mob we shud take serious like vampire or weres

Irumi

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2023, 02:00:53 AM »
Better still to revamp Perf, imo.

+1

I agree !

i have this same though about any mob we shud take serious like vampire or weres

At this stage, it's more a question of having characters that are too high-level and an abundance of magic in a setting that isn't necessarily high-level, I think that's another problem altogether.

FunkeyMonkey

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2023, 03:17:44 AM »
High levels go to Perfidus because it has arguably some of the best drops/yields on the server. The loot spread is big so you have the potential to find amazing things, not going into details.

Giving Prisoner Slayer a key to Summoning Room which has a key to Inner Sanctum would be a cool shout.

To revamp a iconic, well designed dungeon seems a bit over the top, sure giving Cornugons the same stats as Pit Fiends and replacing Balors with some equally vicious is a good call.

A duo can hoof Malthor easily enough, if you have to clear the whole place the minimum would be three.

cooachlyfe

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2023, 05:48:56 PM »
Any dungeon can be cleared by 1 or 2 people who know what they are doing.

But this isn't the topic for that, it's about whether pit fiends should be replaced or renamed due to lore reasons.

The perfidus dungeon and area could definitely be revamped if a dev feels like doing so.

Forte

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2023, 06:04:52 PM »
Giving summoned Balors more prestige because of the fact that they don't just ~exist~ somewhere out there would be nice. I don't hate it. Just calling them 'psuedo-pitfiends' and elsewise and maybe replacing the Balor with something else from the Vault would be easiest.
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2023, 06:11:30 PM »
It was mentioned before (this discussion is by no means new) that changing a whole area (and maybe creating new creatures, editing them in the palette or maybe even scripting it) was too much work (that could be used elsewhere) to just acomodate the original lore.

I abide by to this.
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myrddraal

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2023, 06:35:47 PM »
Giving summoned Balors more prestige because of the fact that they don't just ~exist~ somewhere out there would be nice. I don't hate it. Just calling them 'psuedo-pitfiends' and elsewise and maybe replacing the Balor with something else from the Vault would be easiest.

I think if anything having Balors exist within Perfidus helps to justify the gate spell existing within Ravenloft.  Rather than drawing them from the abyss itself and trapping them, they are summoning ones already within the plane.  I would love to see more of the other fiends that can be conjured used in other places as well.

Forte

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2023, 06:50:15 PM »
I think if anything having Balors exist within Perfidus helps to justify the gate spell existing within Ravenloft.  Rather than drawing them from the abyss itself and trapping them, they are summoning ones already within the plane.  I would love to see more of the other fiends that can be conjured used in other places as well.

True. Didn't think of this. Unfortunately most of the time it's roleplayed as taking from 'outside' anyways, but I'd much prefer the idea that Balors come from Perfidus than summoning random generals of Hell out of nowhere.
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blackpage

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2023, 07:00:22 PM »
Any dungeon can be cleared by 1 or 2 people who know what they are doing.

But this isn't the topic for that, it's about whether pit fiends should be replaced or renamed due to lore reasons.

Kinda is, its relevant to the topic that demons should be revered, meanwhile people skip through them and farm them like cattle for resources. No problem with solos and duos clearing stuff as long as it is thematic in scale. Less is more most of the time anyway

Reskinning the mobs would atleast let the farmers do their thing without it being completely immersion breaking though. Bottom line is a dev would have to tackle perfidus, and its a homebrew place. rather have devs keep making the great lore based stuff and have that be a place for that thing.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2023, 07:06:05 PM by blackpage »
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cooachlyfe

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2023, 08:50:07 PM »
Any dungeon can be cleared by 1 or 2 people who know what they are doing.

But this isn't the topic for that, it's about whether pit fiends should be replaced or renamed due to lore reasons.

Kinda is, its relevant to the topic that demons should be revered, meanwhile people skip through them and farm them like cattle for resources. No problem with solos and duos clearing stuff as long as it is thematic in scale. Less is more most of the time anyway

Reskinning the mobs would atleast let the farmers do their thing without it being completely immersion breaking though. Bottom line is a dev would have to tackle perfidus, and its a homebrew place. rather have devs keep making the great lore based stuff and have that be a place for that thing.

Which is why I think reskinning them or replacing them is a good idea. I don't think changing the dungeon to make it more difficult for people to clear has anything to do with immersion or the topic. I agree with above though, this was discussed before at was concluded that it would take a lot of work for a dev to do, so it's unlikely anything is really going to happen.

Nularia

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2023, 11:57:26 PM »
I mean.. most people that do 2 person parties are probably not level 14. they are probably level 18+

At that point it's really not unresonable that you kill them, also from my experience, most people don't just 'Man fight" them, they abuse their weaknesses that they have an kill them while their disabled.

Even still a level 20 character could totally go toe to toe with a pit fiend. They are strong, but they aren't demi-god level creatures. I never personally found myself feeling "Pulled out" of the experience going to Perfidus and aiding people fighting the monsters there, but I guess to each their own.

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2023, 12:58:37 AM »
I think if anything having Balors exist within Perfidus helps to justify the gate spell existing within Ravenloft.  Rather than drawing them from the abyss itself and trapping them, they are summoning ones already within the plane.  I would love to see more of the other fiends that can be conjured used in other places as well.

There's no justification to the Gate spell or other Planar spells existing in Ravenloft at all; setting-wise these spells are supposed to automatically fail always, unless summoning a target already within the Demiplane. Also IIRC, any Planar beings entrapped in Ravenloft that then die are gone forever if they lack a phylactery to anchor their souls, as if they died on their home plane. The end result is a natural winnowing of numbers; given the frequency with which players use these spells and their summoned creatures subsequently die shortly thereafter, the total populace of Planar beings within Ravenloft should long since have dropped to single digits.

TL;DR, all Planar summoning spells run contrary to canon Ravenloft spell effects and Perfidus is itself a giant contrarian domain at odds with established way of the Demiplane of Dread.

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2023, 04:22:56 AM »
Perf is not actually what it seems, and I'm fine with it as is mechanically, and rp-wise. It would help a lot if its conceit was something players could discover organically rather than having to be told by server veterans, however. Perhaps some day a dev can poke at it.

You're right about the summoning spells though.

MAB77

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2023, 06:42:15 AM »
I think if anything having Balors exist within Perfidus helps to justify the gate spell existing within Ravenloft.  Rather than drawing them from the abyss itself and trapping them, they are summoning ones already within the plane.  I would love to see more of the other fiends that can be conjured used in other places as well.

There's no justification to the Gate spell or other Planar spells existing in Ravenloft at all; setting-wise these spells are supposed to automatically fail always, unless summoning a target already within the Demiplane. Also IIRC, any Planar beings entrapped in Ravenloft that then die are gone forever if they lack a phylactery to anchor their souls, as if they died on their home plane. The end result is a natural winnowing of numbers; given the frequency with which players use these spells and their summoned creatures subsequently die shortly thereafter, the total populace of Planar beings within Ravenloft should long since have dropped to single digits.

TL;DR, all Planar summoning spells run contrary to canon Ravenloft spell effects and Perfidus is itself a giant contrarian domain at odds with established way of the Demiplane of Dread.

The 3e Ravenloft Player's Handbook clearly disagrees with you. Gate, and other summon spells, absolutely work on Ravenloft, but as a one-way trip only.

The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 06:46:20 AM by MAB77 »
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Forte

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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2023, 07:04:51 AM »
The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

Infecting the world with demons, quite literally hostile to everything, would possibly be the funniest possible thing I'd love as a development to the server. If some way to circumvent this limitation is ever found, I would be bouncing up and down in joy.

Balors.

Balors everywhere.
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Re: Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2023, 07:15:39 AM »
The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

What if there was a chance that all levels of summon turn hostile, not just the higher levels?
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