Remove Pit-fiends and Balors from Perfidus.

[MAB77]

It would be the case as per canon rules if it could be implemented.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

The 3e Ravenloft Player's Handbook clearly disagrees with you. Gate, and other summon spells, absolutely work on Ravenloft, but as a one-way trip only.

The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

Page 92, Campaign Setting suggests otherwise. 2e suggests that Gate does still function to some degree for the purposes of yoinking Outsiders into Ravenloft, but in 3e it was changed to the above. It's also worth noting that pretty much every usecase for Gate provokes a Powers Check, too. That's not even touching on the fact that unlike traditional summon line spells, Gate is a calling effect, which irrevocably kills the creature it's targetted if they die, even if it's an Outsider not in it's home plane. Unfathomably evil spell to use in Ravenloft, but people drop it for convenience's sake.

[ladylena]

The 3e Ravenloft Player's Handbook clearly disagrees with you. Gate, and other summon spells, absolutely work on Ravenloft, but as a one-way trip only.

The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

Page 92, Campaign Setting suggests otherwise. 2e suggests that Gate does still function to some degree for the purposes of yoinking Outsiders into Ravenloft, but in 3e it was changed to the above. It's also worth noting that pretty much every usecase for Gate provokes a Powers Check, too. That's not even touching on the fact that unlike traditional summon line spells, Gate is a calling effect, which irrevocably kills the creature it's targetted if they die, even if it's an Outsider not in it's home plane. Unfathomably evil spell to use in Ravenloft, but people drop it for convenience's sake.

It would be neat if there was a way to implement how the creature is now stuck in ravenloft for ever more. Or maybe to change the descriptor to evil or have a blurb explaining that in ravenloft it works differently? There are so many people who use such spells willy nilly, and that may be a lack of understanding of the consequences of such a spell in ravenloft...

[MAB77]

The 3e Ravenloft Player's Handbook clearly disagrees with you. Gate, and other summon spells, absolutely work on Ravenloft, but as a one-way trip only.

The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

Page 92, Campaign Setting suggests otherwise. 2e suggests that Gate does still function to some degree for the purposes of yoinking Outsiders into Ravenloft, but in 3e it was changed to the above. It's also worth noting that pretty much every usecase for Gate provokes a Powers Check, too. That's not even touching on the fact that unlike traditional summon line spells, Gate is a calling effect, which irrevocably kills the creature it's targetted if they die, even if it's an Outsider not in it's home plane. Unfathomably evil spell to use in Ravenloft, but people drop it for convenience's sake.

Don't we love it when continuity is not continuous even within the same book? I was going with the description of the Gate spell itself in the section about magic. That said, there are likely to be fiends hidden present in most domains. Boris the Balor must be tired of being summonned all the time. I would not be advers to a chance of spell failure on summoning outsiders, assorted with an increase in power and a risk they be hostile from the start . That would make conjuration a risky business though.

[myrddraal]

The 3e Ravenloft Player's Handbook clearly disagrees with you. Gate, and other summon spells, absolutely work on Ravenloft, but as a one-way trip only.

The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

Page 92, Campaign Setting suggests otherwise. 2e suggests that Gate does still function to some degree for the purposes of yoinking Outsiders into Ravenloft, but in 3e it was changed to the above. It's also worth noting that pretty much every usecase for Gate provokes a Powers Check, too. That's not even touching on the fact that unlike traditional summon line spells, Gate is a calling effect, which irrevocably kills the creature it's targetted if they die, even if it's an Outsider not in it's home plane. Unfathomably evil spell to use in Ravenloft, but people drop it for convenience's sake.

Don't we love it when continuity is not continuous even within the same book? I was going with the description of the Gate spell itself in the section about magic. That said, there are likely to be fiends hidden present in most domains. Boris the Balor must be tired of being summonned all the time. I would not be advers to a chance of spell failure on summoning outsiders, assorted with an increase in power and a risk they be hostile from the start . That would make conjuration a risky business though.

Without the protection from evil spell used first arent balors still hostile?  Could the same code be applied to outsiders that the summoned animal line has where it has the (20%?) chance of spawning a hostile?

[MAB77]

Could "yes", should? That's a different discussion. Unlikely to happen though. We usually go with the principle that if a feature can't be implemented as per the sourcebook than we don't. We do have exceptions to that rule, but only in very specific game balance cases.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

It would be neat if there was a way to implement how the creature is now stuck in ravenloft for ever more. Or maybe to change the descriptor to evil or have a blurb explaining that in ravenloft it works differently? There are so many people who use such spells willy nilly, and that may be a lack of understanding of the consequences of such a spell in ravenloft...

Personally I'd prefer the Gate/Planar Binding line of spells just not be available to players. They're a massive vortex of narrative issues, all for the sake of mechanical convenience of allowing people to throw down a sacrificial punching bag. Worst still, if we went with the interpretation that Gate still functions as normal and not as per the 3.x rulebooks, it's even worse. It's the equivalent of walking around with a nuke in your pocket, except a nuke only works the once. The Destruction of Creeana was from a single Babau; player characters being able to drop Balors at-will in various places should be a setting ending power. Don't forget that Outsiders have Reality Wrinkles, alongside being deadly opponents. In fact, regardless of whether it's yoinking Outsiders from beyond the Demiplane, those Reality Wrinkles still exist.

Don't we love it when continuity is not continuous even within the same book? I was going with the description of the Gate spell itself in the section about magic. That said, there are likely to be fiends hidden present in most domains. Boris the Balor must be tired of being summonned all the time. I would not be advers to a chance of spell failure on summoning outsiders, assorted with an increase in power and a risk they be hostile from the start . That would make conjuration a risky business though.

Welcome to 3.x, where the rules are made up and every ruling is subject to DM discretion. As to Boris being summoned all the time; that's not an issue. Gate is a calling spell, which unlike regular summons has the specification that they die forever if killed, unlike summons which just send them back home after 'dying'. Given that a majority of Outsiders within the Demiplane likely don't have the phylactery macguffin that allows them to reform as an incorporeal possessor spirit after death, every time someone drops a Balor from Gate they're irrevocably dooming an Outsider to a permanent death. That goes double for the Hound Archons I keep seeing; which is arguably an Act of Ultimate Darkness.

[EarlofEtheria]

In Baldur's Gate (2?) when summoning elementals they are always hostile, but the spell then proceeds into a mental battle lasting a span of rounds, where the elemental is then dominated on a successful check. We have the tech to summon hostile elementals, is it infeasible to have a domination check afterwards as described?

[Nularia]

So what your saying is we assassinate Balors one at a time, by summoning them and killing them and eventually there will be no more balors? Sounds like an ultimate act of good!

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

So what your saying is we assassinate Balors one at a time, by summoning them and killing them and eventually there will be no more balors? Sounds like an ultimate act of good!

The utter destruction of a creature is an evil act, no matter the entity's personal disposition. Nice try, moral relativist.

[Nularia]

I mean, that can be your stance if you want, but I don't agree with it. 

Devils and Demons are literal embodiments of Evil in all it's forms.

[zDark Shadowz]

I mean, that can be your stance if you want, but I don't agree with it. 

Devils and Demons are literal embodiments of Evil in all it's forms.

It's not just a stance, it's laid out in the Book of Vile Darkness resource, page 8, regarding Damning or Harming souls.

~~
Edit:
You're still only harming them physically when killing them normally when they get to Ravenloft. Where their soul gets reconstituted if it is trapped in Ravenloft is a sin for the dark powers to work out.

[gotesu]

I mean, that can be your stance if you want, but I don't agree with it. 

Devils and Demons are literal embodiments of Evil in all it's forms.

It's not just a stance, it's laid out in the Book of Vile Darkness resource, page 8, regarding Damning or Harming souls.

~~
Edit:
You're still only harming them physically when killing them normally when they get to Ravenloft. Where their soul gets reconstituted if it is trapped in Ravenloft is a sin for the dark powers to work out.

Damning or harming souls which are not evil outsiders.

Permanently killing a fiend is not an evil act, on the contrary - that's why Paladins are warriors and not pacifists.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

It's not just a stance, it's laid out in the Book of Vile Darkness resource, page 8, regarding Damning or Harming souls.

~~
Edit:
You're still only harming them physically when killing them normally when they get to Ravenloft. Where their soul gets reconstituted if it is trapped in Ravenloft is a sin for the dark powers to work out.

If I recall correctly, any Fiend that is corporeally destroyed has to have a phylactery macguffin to reconstitute itself as a possessor spirit, then it has to successfully transpose with a mortal's body to reform physically. If they don't have the macguffin to keep their spirit intact, they're irrevocably destroyed as if you summoned them on their home plane. Plus Gate, as I said, is a calling spell. Which automatically applies the above 'destruction of the soul' quality to the summoned Planar being if they die.

Damning or harming souls which are not evil outsiders.

Permanently killing a fiend is not an evil act, on the contrary - that's why Paladins are warriors and not pacifists.

The book never specifies anything about alignment impacting whether the destruction of a soul is an evil act or not, therefore it is a safe assumption that it holds all souls as sacrosanct. Every soul is in abstract a component of the multiverse and destroying it is, in a way, indirectly harming the multiverse. Most Fiends don't even consider the option of utterly destroying someone's soul; corrupting and torturing it, sure. But destroying it, nope.

D&D morality and the alignment system is inherently broken however; it's why whenever I run games I bin the entire system. Instead, Paladins are beholden to their Deity above all other concerns. Granted, there will still be that overlap of acting virtuous, but now the relationship makes more sense. Also implementing a d100 system for a Deity to notice you blaspheming or whatever opens the door for the Paladin to become a Blackguard in a way that makes a little more sense in my eyes; the Paladin starts killing bandits on the road that have surrendered to them, knowing they'll just attack other people if left alive. Their Deity fails the diceroll and doesn't notice, so the Paladin mistakenly assumes it's justified because their God would say otherwise.

[McNastea]

I didn't think they had souls in the same sense to begin with which may be why they aren't mentioned as an exception.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

I didn't think they had souls in the same sense to begin with which may be why they aren't mentioned as an exception.

IIRC Planar beings are different in that their bodies are their souls. They're intrinsically linked; it's why stuff like a Fiend being alignment shifted changes their physical form somewhat.

[Legebrin]

Perfidus needs to be "rebalanced", "upgraded" at least.
1. The temple itself is fairly weak, especially aberrations and fanatics-monks, not casters. Aberrations have a good ability to knock you down - it adds some challenge. Monks are just WEAK, they have low AC, low AB, low HP. Casters can be a problem, but the way they cast is.. bad. They cast time-stop, then just some garbage, everything but not HASTE, acid shield, so they are dangerous only if: a) DM controls it b) 2-3-4 of them in the same time are fighting with you. c) you are weak yourself.
2. Final room is OKAY except you can lure Malthor away -> kill him alone -> kill everything else, it makes things much more easier.
3. Some monsters has no description, it makes people sad

I think the temple might be much harder than it is now.

[myrddraal]

I didn't think they had souls in the same sense to begin with which may be why they aren't mentioned as an exception.

IIRC Planar beings are different in that their bodies are their souls. They're intrinsically linked; it's why stuff like a Fiend being alignment shifted changes their physical form somewhat.

Well, in addition with their phylacteries.  They can reform time and again as long as it exists.

[KovosDatch]

I didn't think they had souls in the same sense to begin with which may be why they aren't mentioned as an exception.

IIRC Planar beings are different in that their bodies are their souls. They're intrinsically linked; it's why stuff like a Fiend being alignment shifted changes their physical form somewhat.

Well, in addition with their phylacteries.  They can reform time and again as long as it exists.

Not to mention they won't truly die unless killed on their home plane, which is not the Demiplane of Dread. So they'll never truly die when killed over and over on the server.

[gesseritt]

The 3e Ravenloft Player's Handbook clearly disagrees with you. Gate, and other summon spells, absolutely work on Ravenloft, but as a one-way trip only.

The one thing we can't do properly because of game engine limitations is to have the summons turn hostile at the end of duration instead of being unsummoned. Which is a shame we could boost summons a bit it they did.

Page 92, Campaign Setting suggests otherwise. 2e suggests that Gate does still function to some degree for the purposes of yoinking Outsiders into Ravenloft, but in 3e it was changed to the above. It's also worth noting that pretty much every usecase for Gate provokes a Powers Check, too. That's not even touching on the fact that unlike traditional summon line spells, Gate is a calling effect, which irrevocably kills the creature it's targetted if they die, even if it's an Outsider not in it's home plane. Unfathomably evil spell to use in Ravenloft, but people drop it for convenience's sake.

Don't we love it when continuity is not continuous even within the same book? I was going with the description of the Gate spell itself in the section about magic. That said, there are likely to be fiends hidden present in most domains. Boris the Balor must be tired of being summonned all the time. I would not be advers to a chance of spell failure on summoning outsiders, assorted with an increase in power and a risk they be hostile from the start . That would make conjuration a risky business though.

I like the idea of making outsider summoning a riskier business!

[malthuul]

Leave Gate as is. It's neat enough and the Balor doesn't last very long and there's no chance to extend the spell. With a lot of creatures being undead, destruction and other death spells it uses are pointless. The scroll is hard enough to come by that it's expensive and if selecting the spell on level up, you are giving up other powerful spells.
For people who specialize conjuration, it's a nice bonus to have a creature that doesn't die to low level mobs like skeletal knights when surrounded, as the greater planar creatures so by getting wacked