(A)MPCs and Storytelling Tools

[Krosenq]

Greetings, all,

In light of the ongoing discussion around the recent changes to the vampire mist-form ability, I thought it appropriate to address a broader issue that seems to have arisen: the role of (A)MPCs. I understand the frustration some are experiencing due to the perceived nerf of the vampire's mist-form ability, especially from the perspective of it being a tool for enhancing roleplay and setting up scenes. I'd argue, however, that it's important to distinguish between the roles of (A)MPCs and DMs. (A)MPCs, as their name implies, are primarily responsible for adding an element of danger and atmosphere to the game, not necessarily for orchestrating intricate plotlines or complex scenarios. This isn't to say that AMPCs can't or shouldn't contribute to storytelling, but their primary role isn't akin to that of a DM.

That being said, it's clear there's a desire from some in our community for a means for monsters to move unseen at high speeds for the purpose of setting up roleplay scenes. As such, a balanced, universal ability that serves this purpose might be worth exploring, given that it does not undermine the core dynamics of the game or the distinctiveness of each template. And perhaps this would be the proper thread to discuss such an ability, and other ideas for story enhancing tools. What are the merits, and is it needed? What is the stance of server staff on this?

It's clear that such an addition would significantly alter what it means to be an (A)MPC. The inherent risk lies in the potential blurring of lines between the roles of (A)MPCs and DMs. For the record, I'm not personally advocating for a change like this- but I recognize the significance of this topic and believe it merits its own dedicated thread to keep the discussion on topic.

[HM01]

I rationalize this issue with a solution completely divorced from how things are implemented currently, and I think an overhaul of the system would be appropriate in the long run.

MPC ( or more simply, Monstrous Player) should be a role that you apply for, and instead of the six month timer for one character- you are allotted six months on a team to portray as many monsters as you would like - with vetted approval, having proven your ability to understand, comprehend, and portray them faithfully to the setting.

This would be an effort to thwart attachment culture, and throttle some of the bureaucracy involved. An MP would be able to portray monsters, add dungeon spice, and have a quick (ideally weekly) access to a new template.

Your AMPC vampire getting railed by the level 20 paladin wouldn't be as much of a bummer if you had the agency to continue in your role. I think this would inspire people to play more of the less sought templates. As the monster, you are going to die, its just a matter of when - and the how is not up to you. I think there would be more overall enjoyment if the people who were willing to play the monsters had more tools at their disposal, not less.


tldr: people who want to story tell through monsters, can and should - and should be able to play many more monsters.

[Avela]

Yeah sure I'll weigh in on this.

I get the concern of blurring the line between ampc and dm, but I don't think that would be much of an issue. There is a core difference between the two, even though their main goals are very similar- keeping the scene alive and providing story.

As said in the OP, ampcs are atmospheric, while dms are plot driven focused. As it should be. But even if you add back what was nerfed in the previous update for vampires, that doesn't change that at all. Ampcs will never be able to go to the extents dms can when it comes to creating stories. DMs can do -so- much more, have a story with points to follow, and can control multiple npcs to tell that story. Giving ampcs abilties to "set the scene" by "scoping it out" first is not going to change that or make dms less important or distinct. It just helps them do what they set out to do- scare people.

It's fun if an ampc just pops out of nowhere to confront your character. However, walking into a scene that was able to be prepared by the ampc, setting the tone and vibe for an intense stand off... that sounds more appealing to me. That atmospheric element, in my mind, is important when telling compelling antagonists. It reinforces fear that characters tend to lose after being in a land of death and monsters for months or years. I want ampcs to scare me as a player and I want them to terrify and intrigue my pcs and have them take the monsters seriously. I don't see why that should be inhibited mechanically.

Overall I'm not terribly invested despite how that may have came off, the ampcs lately have been wonderful and I only wish I was able to interact with them more, but everything I've seen and been involved in has been great. My only concern would be that changes like the one that inspired the discussion mentioned in the OP might be unnecessarily limiting ampcs abilities to do what they set out to do. I am not a dm nor ever played an ampc so I can only speak from my perspective of interacting with them and there are certainly more perspectives to look at than that.

TLDR: Let the ampcs be scary

[Krosenq]

I rationalize this issue with a solution completely divorced from how things are implemented currently, and I think an overhaul of the system would be appropriate in the long run.

MPC ( or more simply, Monstrous Player) should be a role that you apply for, and instead of the six month timer for one character- you are allotted six months on a team to portray as many monsters as you would like - with vetted approval, having proven your ability to understand, comprehend, and portray them faithfully to the setting.

This would be an effort to thwart attachment culture, and throttle some of the bureaucracy involved. An MP would be able to portray monsters, add dungeon spice, and have a quick (ideally weekly) access to a new template.

Your AMPC vampire getting railed by the level 20 paladin wouldn't be as much of a bummer if you had the agency to continue in your role. I think this would inspire people to play more of the less sought templates. As the monster, you are going to die, its just a matter of when - and the how is not up to you. I think there would be more overall enjoyment if the people who were willing to play the monsters had more tools at their disposal, not less.


tldr: people who want to story tell through monsters, can and should - and should be able to play many more monsters.

This is an innovative proposal, and I'm entirely on board. It could allow for unique group dynamics, like coordinated wererat gangs, and would inspire variety in monster play.  Would love for this to be considered and brought up for discussion.

[Zyemeth]

This is a fantastic idea. A player role for the allotted time to play as varied AMPCs to their heart's content and little fear of if something doesn't turn out well?

[Holgard]

An AMPC who doesn't have a story is a bad AMPC, they can create a lot of plot and have in the past. Yes they don't have all the tools that a DM does but that doesn't mean they cannot create or have fulfilling and engaging stories.

I do not like the idea of incentivizing throw away fodder characters that constantly get killed off. I think this is a terrible idea because at this point you're basically playing a dungeon mob and you're making a situation where people have already complained about: "Monsters taking ridiculous risks".

Why shouldn't my monster yeet itself into outskirts if I get another? Why should I come up with a story if I can just have another generic ghoul, that's easier than thought. I have played (if I remember them all.) 9 total AMPCs and not a single one of them have I roleplayed as a dungeon minion. They all have had goals, backstories, and ways people can interact with those back stories. Emotions, ideals, vices, Yada Yada. This is how it should be, I can assure you if the role begins to incentivize throw away characters I will never apply for the role again because that's not what I want to play or be associated with.

I don't think any of you -really- want what is being suggested here. If you eat cake every single day then after only a few weeks cake will start to become boring no matter how much you think you love cake. Sure, you can start eating chocolate cake instead of vanilla and then move on to ice cream cake once that gets boring but even that too will get boring very quickly. But having a piece of good, well made cake every once in awhile is far more enjoyable and indulgent than gluttonously eating it every single possible chance you can.


TLDR: It's every kids dream to eat cake every day, but it really doesn't take that long to get sick of it.

I think maybe I'm hungry.

[RedMoney]

Ampcs need a set up mode widget that makes them undetectable so they can set scenes

[Avela]

An AMPC who doesn't have a story is a bad AMPC, they can create a lot of plot and have in the past. Yes they don't have all the tools that a DM does but that doesn't mean they cannot create or have fulfilling and engaging stories.

I kind of agree with the sentiment that the described idea, while seemingly gives a lot of freedom for the player, would also run the risk of making flat, one dimensional antagonists. I'd much rather have a well thought out ampc with ideas, goals, and character that is cautious about when they strike, than a half baked concept that wasn't entirely thought out because they didn't need to be in order to exist.

MPC ( or more simply, Monstrous Player) should be a role that you apply for, and instead of the six month timer for one character- you are allotted six months on a team to portray as many monsters as you would like - with vetted approval, having proven your ability to understand, comprehend, and portray them faithfully to the setting.

How would the vetting process work in this instance, especially for people who have never played monster characters before? As it is now, the application is a concrete, thought out character concept, that has to make sense, be supported mechanically and icly, and in some cases has to assess the player's past behavior regarding ampcs. Would this be a general knowledge based exam? A trial period strictly overseen by dms?

Also, and perhaps I am misunderstanding this idea, but wouldn't every monster that is created still in some way need approval by a dm? For one, they still need to set the race of the monster correctly with the correct attributes and all that. And is a singular dm good to give approval with each new concept? As I understand it now, the ampc process is more or less a group decision. I'd be very surprised if that changed into a singular dm looking it over and giving the thumbs up without consulting anyone else. Unless this is to suggest that these players would just be able to do that on their own- of which I feel like treads into dm territory and I don't think dms would take kindly to that, as much as it would probably lighten their workload.

Your AMPC vampire getting railed by the level 20 paladin wouldn't be as much of a bummer if you had the agency to continue in your role. I think this would inspire people to play more of the less sought templates. As the monster, you are going to die, its just a matter of when - and the how is not up to you.

Fair, I get the reasoning behind this. However, if you are submitting for an ampc application, you go into the role with this understanding that it could happen. And while I fully believe that it is the responsibilty of higher level players to respect ampcs and what they're setting out to do and sometimes they don't fulfill that responsibilty, I don't think it happens often enough where ampcs need to have access to multiple monsters just to feel less concerned about losing their monster that they understood was meant to be slain in the first place.

I am not fully against the idea, I understand the thought behind it and I don't totally disagree with it. I would like to see a little more elaboration on how it would all work.

[William Roberts]

Note that HM01's proposal mentioned one-week intervals for respawning. This "cool down" could be adjusted to keep the monster from seeming too throwaway.

Assuming a DM is still required to apply the template, I see plenty of oversight to prevent players' just being cavalier about the opportunity to play a monster.

If a person is against this change, then do you also support the six-month limit on aMPC lifespan? It would seem to me that we are asking a lot out of those playing aMPCs if we expect them both to tolerate quick closure, know that they have to die in six months, but we still want them to invest their creature with a great story.

The "atmosphere" in aMPC implies that as long as it's making things scary, it's doing its job. Yes, a good story is even better, but something can be scary simply by being an intelligent and cunning foe (like the Predator) with the less we know about it or understand it making for even greater heebie-jeebies.

I don't think we should slip into rejecting everything that has the possibility of being abused. That's the definition of not being allowed nice things.

[ladylena]

Ampcs need a set up mode widget that makes them undetectable so they can set scenes

Now this is a good idea. It can be disheartening when you're trying to set up a scene, and you're invis/stealthed to the maximum your able to achieve, and you get downed before you can even type up the first line to the scene. So it would be nice to have some sort of ability to enable them to set things up, however I can see this being taken advantage of  by players who don't want to engage in pvp or hostilities.  So perhaps something of a toggle that can't work when someone is set to hostile to you, or a cool down timer that doesn't work when hostile?

It was really nice to have the speedy mist form for vampires, but as a RP server, the focus shouldn't be on mechanical gains... I mean lore wise they are a mist that moves the same speed as mist/fog, if i'm remembering it correctly. However, having something that would freely enable the player to set things up without dread of being killed before they finish could encourage more to play A/MPCs.

It's been a very long time since I was given the privilege of playing a monsterous character, so I don't know what all it is like anymore, but having more tools to let them add to the setting should be a good thing I would think. I mean when I played one, we couldn't summon hoards to support the monster, and didn't have a shop to select items from as needed. There have been a lot of improvements over the years, but perhaps now we are almost needing a new choice beyond just the A/MPC and DM/Dev. Having some sort of option for enabling players to add to the setting in atmospheric ways, or a sort of DM lite that can handle some NPC encounters or describe a scene in that fancy yellow text...

Sometimes the small things can make the largest improvements.

[RedMoney]

As it stands now you are are already allowed to "que up" AMPCs so that when one dies you already have another approved.  I do not imagine that most AMPC players do this, since being an AMPC can be mentally draining and having time in between monsters is needed to recharge.

Making AMPCs more disposable by any means is a bad idea.  There -does- need to be a certain level of story telling going on to create ambiance that is not simply shallow and fleeting. Having backstory reinforces the setting's grimdark nature and is a good thought exercise on how people in this realm would think about things and view the world. I feel like there is this view that story and backstory do not create ambiance, but they really do.  Especially if you dig into lore that is new to yourself and then present it to the rest of the server through your AMPC's actions and dialogue.

The way that AMPCs engage with the world has to be flexible based on how the PCs you encounter chose to engage with the AMPC.  A huge part of being an AMPC is learning the ooc playstyle preferences of other people and meeting them where they want to be met.  The AMPC personals thread can go a long way in helping do that.  Not everyone is going to want to play the same way, so AMPCs have to be allowed to interpret the guidelines flexibly and provide what people want on an individual basis.

Specifically to the six month life span rule, that is more of a guideline and exceptions are made if there is good, deep RP being generated by the AMPC that has a conclusion in sight but might take a bit longer.  It is between the AMPC and the DM team though. When you app for an AMPC, you need to have an actual plan of execution and ideas on how your character will meet their demise and consider how you will fit that plan into the time frame to keep yourself from stalling and stagnating. And really, six months on an AMPC is a -lot- of time.

[Avela]

I don't think we should slip into rejecting everything that has the possibility of being abused. That's the definition of not being allowed nice things.

Sure, though that does not mean we shouldn't ask questions or point out potential flaws. Almost anything introduced can be taken in a bad way regardless of how much you "child-proof" it. Whatever your opinion on it is, the change suggested is a drastic one. That would probably take a fair amount of work to configure and implement, so we should be pretty sure that it's worth it- and that ampc players actually want it.

Note that HM01's proposal mentioned one-week intervals for respawning. This "cool down" could be adjusted to keep the monster from seeming too throwaway.

One week still seems like a quick time to move on from monster to monster, even if they're a "predator" type monster, in my opinion, especially if taken to the fullest extent of switching out templates each week. Granted, I don't think this would happen majority of the time, but I'd still probably suggest a longer interval if this idea were to take place.

I suppose my I guess critique of the idea (aside from the logistics of how it would work) is the concern that monsters would be switched out too fast and cause people to be taken out of the experience and think "Oh yaaaay another rando monster woooo..."

Keep in mind this is coming from a person who would much rather RP a tense stand off where not much in terms of battle happen but lots of descriptive story telling elements were there over pvp/dungeoning almost any day, so this idea may be more suited for people who aren't as story-centric, which is fair it can be a lot. I kind of feel like, though, that type of mechanic would just feed into the higher levels hunting mpcs more because "oh they can just make a new one, it's fine." Even if you could just make another monster relatively easy, at some point that would have to be discouraging if it just kept happening again and again and again. At least I assume as much.

Again, I'm not an ampc player and may never be one. At the end of the day I'll go with whatever option makes ampcs most effective, I'm just not entirely convinced this is the way to do it. But I think the words of actual ampc players should get the most say in this regardless which way it goes.

[Flambeuse]

I think the idea of giving *MPCs more tools is good. The idea of having a "Scene Setting" mode where you're invulnerable and undetectable is nice especially for those *MPCs who don't have great stealth scores when setting scenes, especially if you're afraid of the proverbial scary detector PC stumbling across you. This tool could be abused, but then that should be flagged and that *MPC template yanked.

I don't agree with the idea of giving *MPCs multiple characters within the six month ticket to tell the same story. That just feels like it's becoming too impersonal. Perhaps allowing for *MPCs to be respawned by the Mists once or twice might be good so that their story can be extended beyond a single showdown, especially if they're lower levels in Barovia and thus might be ganked by higher levels, but that's definitely an idea that should be considered very carefully. The whole point here is stakes: if you give *MPCs too many gimmicks to survive, it lowers the stakes for engaging them.

Sometimes you get unlucky and the story you wanted to tell gets cut short. That sucks, but it makes the reward for completing your story as you desired all the much greater. I think it's better to tell *MPCs players who might feel dissatisfied by an early closure to accept that it's the cost of doing business and move on. They can maybe try to rejig the story and tell it again with a different *MPC when the smoke has cleared.

As an AMPC who has spent a lot of time currently pulling the tiger's tail and engaging a lot of high levels in combat, I feel that my survival to this date is a reward in itself and it contributes to the effectiveness and meaningfulness of my narrative. Maybe I'll get unlucky tomorrow and get nuked into oblivion because I made a mistake. Them's the breaks. If any PC manages to defeat my AMPC, it will be because they deserved it, however, and that's an important stake.

Because there's a difference between pulling the tiger's tail, and sticking your head in the tiger's mouth knowing you have a Get Out of Death Free card. The first, for me, is exciting; the latter can be done maybe once, but then it gets cheap, even assuming you don't think it's cheap in the first place.

[cooachlyfe]

Ampcs need a set up mode widget that makes them undetectable so they can set scenes

Honestly this. +1

[Kireek]

And possible an Oh shit button tbhlike if that horrible situation goes down- but it should be logged and justified, etc.

Like if you get in way over your head, you can actually ya know.. properly portray your vampire being like, and THIS WS MY PLAN ALL ALONG BWAHAHA.. oh thank god. Now I can escape.. and pretend this was all a set up to an ambush.

[Zyemeth]

And possible an Oh shit button tbhlike if that horrible situation goes down- but it should be logged and justified, etc.

Like if you get in way over your head, you can actually ya know.. properly portray your vampire being like, and THIS WS MY PLAN ALL ALONG BWAHAHA.. oh thank god. Now I can escape.. and pretend this was all a set up to an ambush.

I think that's actually the situation it should not be used for. To set a scene and read a party ahead of time sounds great. To be used as an IC mechanic should be a big no-no.

[Kireek]

Like I said, it needs to be logged and justified oocly after the fact so ampcs cant just use it irresponsibly. Abuse gets the toys taken away, and possibly no future ampc roles

[ChrisRanHimselfOver]

If something like a storyteller tool were implemented that allowed (A)MPCs to go about unnoticed, I don't think it should be allowed to be used as a tool to escape. Even monsters need to be careful.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the rules regarding the use of such a tool should carry some of the same rules as when characters are spirits. Anything witnessed while in storyteller mode should not be something that the character knows of. With its use being limited to setting up a scene or else describing a scene that PCs may have stumbled upon or arrived to investigate in the event that the (A)MPC itself wouldn't actually be there. This could allow for vampire (A)MPCs to set up scenes and take part in revealing information to passersby or investigators even during the daytime without needing to rely on leaving information via marks too.

[Avela]

If something like a storyteller tool were implemented that allowed (A)MPCs to go about unnoticed, I don't think it should be allowed to be used as a tool to escape. Even monsters need to be careful.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the rules regarding the use of such a tool should carry some of the same rules as when characters are spirits. Anything witnessed while in storyteller mode should not be something that the character knows of. With its use being limited to setting up a scene or else describing a scene that PCs may have stumbled upon or arrived to investigate in the event that the (A)MPC itself wouldn't actually be there. This could allow for vampire (A)MPCs to set up scenes and take part in revealing information to passersby or investigators even during the daytime without needing to rely on leaving information via marks too.

I agree with this

Additionally, it would just give ampcs more chances to interact in the daytime so they're not so bound to the night. So for those who can't be in the sun, they can still contribute to the atmosphere and just have a little more freedom in the way of scene setting. And even those that can be it would still probably be a useful tool to not be noticed/having to rely on marks.

[softdrink]

Bumping this idea

Some kind of mode that you can toggle that makes you undetectable so you can use things like @voice and set up scenes.

A cooldown from combat would be necessary. Making it so it can't be activated 5 minutes from the last combat would suffice well enough to ensure it couldn't exactly be abused for escapes I would think.
Also having it so you can't attack things or anything like that from this state by possibly incurring a very very large damage and attack penalty?