Important changes coming regarding the crafting system

[Desident]

These comments laying out hypothetical code logic is a bit insulting. Our dev's know how to do simple functions to pull information from tables and reference it against entities. If it were as simple as is being suggested, this wouldn't be a discussion. This is a 20+ year old game, and there is a lot more to it than just a plain dataset reference. These suggestions don't account for abuse prevention, item duping fail-safes, checks to make sure it doesn't affect the loot table, how chunky the process being called affects server performance, how it will treat someone who is doing it when a server crash happens, etc. There are a LOT of things that go into implementing seemingly simple changes that most backseat coders can pump into various standalone code, but with a server that's been around for this long, has this much custom content, and has changed the base game THIS drastically, it's a complicated, and cumbersome affair.

Do I think it needs to happen anyway? Definitely. But assuming our dev's don't know how to code these simple examples given is just uncalled for. It's not as easy as it's be proposed.

[Kireek]

That is a lot of projection. Like a lot. And yet, I'm sitting here with my brow raised at some of these comments.

The item duping failsafes can be fixed with a single line being..


is the item still inside of me just before I payout? if yes, pay out, clear variables. If no, clear variables, spit out error, go to checking state... which when combined with the? did I just try and payout more than an acceptable level lines I suggested, would cover that. Abuse prevention was also covered.. custom items, which are the risk, you just won't allow.


The code would only run fully if the first variable was fulfilled, which was was I closed? The entire cycle isn't going 24/7.

...Stop backseat coding my backseat coding man. They wanted constructive feedback, I gave it. it's doable, the only thing that would hold this process back is if they don't have a text parser in the ravenloft code base. That is the limiting factor. That and labor. But my position on that is, considering it took me over a year to get arcane steel and 1.5 million gold, I think maybe that labor is a bit warranted before my equipment gets nerfed into trash tier. That's just my time, what about everyone elses?

The only failsafe that needs to be accounted for would be makers marks for abuse, and you could get around that by having the parser only being concerned with the first few lines of the text, and ignore anything after lets say paragraph 2 or 3.

[dushmann]

Whatever man, as unfortunate as this change is, it seems that the devs have already made up their minds and have come to a consensus on this. I think most of us have already resigned ourselves to the dev's decision despite any potential suggestions.  Pretty sure that someone said on the discord that the idea of the playerbase being able to reject devs decisions is probably the funniest joke on POTM.

INB4 thread locked due to the discussion having "run its course."

[MAB77]

[...]
I am using bodak lining, and while the DR is very nice and the reason i chose it, i'm a bit puzzled as to how it's overpowered ? [...]

You are misunderstanding. The issue is not the negative energy DR, as evidenced by the fact that we are also inducing a bolt of shadow silk lining option that will take over this function.

But balance wise, armors, vs any other crafted items you can think of, obtained a greater amount of bonuses. They potentially received:
- Bonuses from the prime component (metal, chitin, scales)
- Bonuses from the secondary component (linings)
- Bonus from Gilding (those that can't be are in return extra light)
- The standard enchanting bonus
- An extra enchanting bonus from the lining for enchanting no other item received.

It is that last extra enchantment we are cutting down. In most cases these are a +3 skill point bonus. But the tailoring overhaul induced a power creep skill point wise. These 3 points, once obtained only upon enchanting can now be gained and surpassed using cloaks and hoods, and further again once enchanted. As such, it is felt the extra bonus for enchanting armor lining is no longer required. In a few cases, like bodak, it's a different property. It is only a side effect that bodak will lose its negative DR once enchanted. Though again we are adding an option to gain it in a different way.

[MAB77]

Whatever man, as unfortunate as this change is, it seems that the devs have already made up their minds and have come to a consensus on this. I think most of us have already resigned ourselves to the dev's decision despite any potential suggestions.  Pretty sure that someone said on the discord that the idea of the playerbase being able to reject devs decisions is probably the funniest joke on POTM.

INB4 thread locked due to the discussion having "run its course."

Very unfair and incorrect. Some of the suggestions have been accepted and others are being considered. I also question your need to hide beneath a new account, but that's an entirely different issue.

Stay polite, stay constructive.

@Kireek I appreciate that you were more civil and constructive I your latest replies. But it does not at all work as you seem to think.

[dushmann]

Whatever man, as unfortunate as this change is, it seems that the devs have already made up their minds and have come to a consensus on this. I think most of us have already resigned ourselves to the dev's decision despite any potential suggestions.  Pretty sure that someone said on the discord that the idea of the playerbase being able to reject devs decisions is probably the funniest joke on POTM.

INB4 thread locked due to the discussion having "run its course."

Very unfair and incorrect. Some of the suggestions have been accepted and others are being considered. I also question your need to hide beneath a new account, but that's an entirely different issue.

Stay polite, stay constructive.

@Kireek I appreciate that you were more civil and constructive I your latest replies. But it does not at all work as you seem to think.

Fair enough dude.

Also what new account? I've had this for about a year now. Talk about unfair and incorrect.

[JustMonika]

It is, as always, worth mentioning that if anyone feels they can code this sort of thing into the NWN engine on our server, they can always apply to the Dev team and then actually impliment it.

[MAB77]

Granted I should have verified the date, the number of post fooled me.

[Maiyannah]

You are misunderstanding. The issue is not the negative energy DR, as evidenced by the fact that we are also inducing a bolt of shadow silk lining option that will take over this function.

I am puzzled why we need a new material that takes away something from a material which already exists.  It seems to be adding variety for the sake of variety, rather than serving a specific design goal.  So with that in mind, what design goal is this in aid of?  I suppose I can see the design goal of splitting up the death save and the negative energy save, however, I would respectfully suggest it may be less disruptive to have the death save be the thing moved to the new item, since at least from my anecdotal experiences talking to many people about this subject, the negative resistance is the primary trait the people I've spoken to got bodak for.  If we do have to reimburse things, it seems sensible to try to at least minimize how much work is created by it.

It is, as always, worth mentioning that if anyone feels they can code this sort of thing into the NWN engine on our server, they can always apply to the Dev team and then actually impliment it.

Given that Skelni shared with us elsewhere he's been waiting five months on a DM application, I doubt that this is a panacea for this problem even if we did have some sort of Linus Torvalds but for NWN level of coding genuis among us that could pop this out for tomorrow.

[MAB77]

@Maiyannah
Consistency.

- Shadow silk is already the non-enchanted option for negative energy DR on clothings, it is being expanded on armors.

- Bodak unenchanted gives ST vs death bonus. There is no reason to remove this property.

- Also, though it did not in itself played a role in the decision: many paladins expressed a wish not to have to wear undead hide for the negative energy DR.

[MAB77]

Furthermore there is no actual need to swap the properties. We could have current bodak lined armors convert to bolt of shadow silk lining when this update is implemented. (Will try to anyway).

[Maiyannah]

Furthermore there is no actual need to swap the properties. We could have current bodak lined armors convert to bolt of shadow silk lining when this update is implemented. (Will try to anyway).

Certainly if this is possible, then the distinction is a nonissue; my understanding from what EO was saying is this was very difficult however.

One thing I wanted to add since it hasn't been touched on much: I didn't even know "hidden properties" for enchanted gear were a thing.  I would definitely advocate them either being removed or made, somehow, not "hidden".

Also, though it did not in itself played a role in the decision: many paladins expressed a wish not to have to wear undead hide for the negative energy DR.

I mean, I suppose I can get this but given the amount of rancid stuff goes on daily in Ravenloft (in the average say Torm or Ezran paladin's eyes), it seems a weird hill to die on, so to speak.

[JustMonika]

It is, as always, worth mentioning that if anyone feels they can code this sort of thing into the NWN engine on our server, they can always apply to the Dev team and then actually impliment it.

Given that Skelni shared with us elsewhere he's been waiting five months on a DM application, I doubt that this is a panacea for this problem even if we did have some sort of Linus Torvalds but for NWN level of coding genuis among us that could pop this out for tomorrow.

While that is sad, Developer Applications are completely different to DM Applications and handled by entirely different teams. The two are as related as the current time to approve a PrC by the CC.
That doesn't mean there isn't a long wait for Dev apps, but equally it doesn't mean that there is either.

[Abear]

I mean, I'm aware of one talented modeller who waited months only to find that their app was never even posted. I'm aware of another professional developer who was denied and told they should work on public projects for NWN as a whole instead.

I don't want to claim to know exactly what's going on, but if they're hurting for devs, I'm not convinced it's because people aren't applying.

[myrddraal]

Has any consideration been given to how this change will effect the economy in the post aftermath of this considered update? If there is no way to refund the materials from a craft, the demand for those ingots/rare materials is going to be crazy high. If you thought adamantine was expensive... just wait.

I made a comment on this earlier.  I estimated 100 characters needing chain shirts at minimum at like 20 million gold.  At the current low end of the market at 40k an ingot.  20 million gold is the conservative estimate

[Favee]

I mean, I'm aware of one talented modeller who waited months only to find that their app was never even posted. I'm aware of another professional developer who was denied and told they should work on public projects for NWN as a whole instead.

I don't want to claim to know exactly what's going on, but if they're hurting for devs, I'm not convinced it's because people aren't applying.

I don't know if you're alluding to me, but I'm flattered if you are.  That said, I am an artist who applied for dev.  I also want to clear out some misconceptions and correct the record.

I applied for developer on the 6th of April.  And asked for my application to be rescinded on May 9th.  I don't know what the outcome of my application would have been.  I received confirmation that it was received shortly after I applied.  As well as confirmation that it was under review on the 27th of April when I inquired for an update.

My reasons for asking to have my app rescinded isn't because of a delay in response.  I just honestly dislike the majority of you, and I want to focus my time and efforts around the people I enjoy being around.

That said! Applications take time to review.  They take a lot more time when there are nine other things being juggled.

Also I think its probably best we stop using "Apply for developer" as a bludgeon to prevent feedback.  You can absolutely contribute without being part of the dev team, whether its suggestions, ideas, or assets..  Most of the devs are pretty cool people and if you ask one if you can help them with something, they might have something.

[Kamfrenchie]

@Maiyannah
Consistency.

- Shadow silk is already the non-enchanted option for negative energy DR on clothings, it is being expanded on armors.

- Bodak unenchanted gives ST vs death bonus. There is no reason to remove this property.

- Also, though it did not in itself played a role in the decision: many paladins expressed a wish not to have to wear undead hide for the negative energy DR.

I see. Shadow silk is a tailor based item right ? will worg lining work the same in term of DR once enchanted, or is it different entirely ?

[zDark Shadowz]

No, worg is just negative saving throws, and there'll be no more secret properties on enchanting so it will just stay negative saving throws.

[Abear]

I don't know if you're alluding to me, but I'm flattered if you are.

I wasn't, no.

I only commented on the two instances that I am entirely sure of. Unfortunately, if I wanted to comment on every disheartening rumor I've heard about bumps in the staff application road, I'd likely wear myself out. I appreciate you shedding some light on the process, though I hadn't even realized you'd submitted a dev app recently. The outcome is disappointing, if unsurprising given these last few contentious weeks.

To reign this back into being on topic, I agree with the sentiment that the change should be put on hold until a refund process for materials can be worked out; nobody is in a rush, there's no profit-driven deadlines. I look forward to the change, and I think it will be healthy, but there are quite a few people who feel like their time is being disrespected to a significant degree. Undoubtedly this isn't the intention, but the feelings are strong all the same.

[Rapugnak]

while to be honest I'm not sure why these changes are being made...
I think items covered here that are already enchanted.... That player made the choice to spend their exp. on a particular item with particular abilities.
it would only be fair to allow that player a choice of un-enchanting the item and getting their exp back and the construction materials used or keeping item as is. in the previous changes that were similar items were left untouched and grandfathered as it were. In my case I have a character with 39,000 exp worth of items that will no longer function in the same way.

resources like exp. and adamant ingots take a massive investment of time and trouble to acquire

[Grime81]

i have a question regarding voidspider glands which are made into shadow silk spools: will the silks be made into bolts through crafting or will changes happen to the existing materials after the patch?
forgive me if i missed an answer to this question already as the thread has grown quite quickly

[myrddraal]

Will other tailoring components be able to be used in armor smithing as well?  Or just the shadow silk?  I admit if the changes allow for much greater customization of armor...I will be a bit more receptive to the change myself.  Being able to add OL, disguise, disarm trap, etc to a set of armor you can actually fight in would be a big plus.

[MAB77]

i have a question regarding voidspider glands which are made into shadow silk spools: will the silks be made into bolts through crafting or will changes happen to the existing materials after the patch?
forgive me if i missed an answer to this question already as the thread has grown quite quickly

It will be possible to make "bolts of shadow silk" using a plain weave tablet and shadow silk exotic threads. No changes to existing materials, its just using existing ones to create new ones.

Will other tailoring components be able to be used in armor smithing as well?  Or just the shadow silk?  I admit if the changes allow for much greater customization of armor...I will be a bit more receptive to the change myself.  Being able to add OL, disguise, disarm trap, etc to a set of armor you can actually fight in would be a big plus.

Not at this time. This rebalance aims, in part, at lowering the amount of skill point bonuses on items, it would be counter productive to add more of those. With the addition of astral driftmetal and shadow silk, it will be a total of 21230 different metal armors combinations you can craft. Surely greater customization will not make a huge difference. You can wear clothings instead of armor if you need a specific bonus granted by a higher tier weave.

On the other end though. I am looking to bring in some key secondary features currently available on armors but not to tailored items. See the other thread about monk gear for tailoring.

[EarlofEtheria]

No, worg is just negative saving throws, and there'll be no more secret properties on enchanting so it will just stay negative saving throws.

Unless I'm crazy, Worg Lining on armour grants 5/- Negative energy resist before enchanting, with saving vs cold + negative instead of death + negative. Unless that changed in the tailoring update.

[MAB77]

No, worg is just negative saving throws, and there'll be no more secret properties on enchanting so it will just stay negative saving throws.

Unless I'm crazy, Worg Lining on armour grants 5/- Negative energy resist before enchanting, with saving vs cold + negative instead of death + negative. Unless that changed in the tailoring update.

Worg gained a negative energy DR only after being enchanted. This bonus is being eliminated.
Pre enchantment it was a ST +2, which will decrease to +1.