Important changes coming regarding the crafting system

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I'll weigh in:

My personal thoughts & the majority of posts on this topic seem to point to a few key takeaways:
1. Most players are on-board or even in favor with the majority of the re-balances proposed here (which seems positive).
2. XP Return/Keeping the nerfed item seems like an agreeable solution for most items/circumstances, with two one BIG exceptions (Bodak lined armors & Electrum gilded armors).
3. Most players & devs agree that the return of crafted ingredients would be ideal, although it's not clear whether or not it would be possible to automate that return system.

With those observations in mind, I would recommend that things proceed as laid out by the Dev Team in all of the circumstances not pertaining to Bodak-lined armors & Electrum gilded armors. For Bodak, I would recommend one of the following (assuming that a means of automating the return of crafted ingredients is not found):

Bodak lined armors
Option A - Are grandfathered (I really don't think this is a big deal since the new system will allow for the creation of armors that still have /10 Negative Energy enchanted). Newly made suits with Bodak would not get the /10.
Option B - Bodak lined armors lose vs. death bonus, but maintain the /10 Negative Energy.
Option C - Bodak lined armors are re-compensated by DM's on an individual basis (I know there are many Bodak-lined armors out there, but I think the player sentiment here is strong enough to make it worth the time investment if no other solution can be found).

Electrum-gilded armors
(As I was typing this, I actually changed my opinion. The Bodak lined armors are a real issue. The electrum ones... I mean it's frustrating but I don't think it's worth losing sleep over really. I would say just keep the nerfed Electrum armor and accept that none of the gilds are going to be all that strong now).
Option A - Are grandfathered (This is a little trickier than the Bodak in my opinion since there won't be a gilding option with / DR post update, but there will be a lining option for /Acid). I don't think this is more powerful than other items that have been grandfathered in the past, but I know that may be a contested opinion.
Option B - I don't think it's worth asking DM's to individually compensate players materials for these, so I would say just swallow the pill fellow players.

[MAB77]

Is there going to be a replacement for the White Stag Lining AC Vs Undead increase? Or is that simply gone forever?

Not at this time as this is covered through platinum gilding. I acknowledge that leaves the option unavailable for scale and chitin armors at this time. I'll try to find an option for those.

[Maiyannah]

If the system is designed in the way I think it is from MAB's description, simply grandfathering Bodak-lined armours is not technically possible, as in its a limitation of how these are scripted and implemented.

A better alternative may be some sort of way for players to automagically convert a bodak lined armour to the new material with the property, keeping all other things equal.

[Wilkins1952]

Is there going to be a replacement for the White Stag Lining AC Vs Undead increase? Or is that simply gone forever?

Not at this time as this is covered through platinum gilding. I acknowledge that leaves the option unavailable for scale and chitin armors at this time. I'll try to find an option for those.

Would it not be better to simply leave the Lining as is? Already it was adjusted to stack and if someone wants to specialise their armor that much then they are losing out on stuff elsewhere.  As well as allowing Chitin/Scale to keep those AC bonuses.

[Zyemeth]

I would agree with having white stag+platinum enchant to+5 vs undead at least. Make white stag just give +1vs undead when non enchanted so stag+platinum unenchanted is +3 vs undead. Could also have enchanted electrum still give 5acid DR and change gargoyle to be more thematic.

Gargoyle can be piercing AC like other high tier linings, heavy too, and saves vs. petrification. Enchanted makes immune to petrification. Really plays well with the gargoyle theme.

[Scrublord]

Yea white stag armor lining would be exactly the same was normal stag armor without the undead ac bonus. Invalidating the material entirely despite that fact its a bit harder to find.

[zDark Shadowz]

If the system is designed in the way I think it is from MAB's description, simply grandfathering Bodak-lined armours is not technically possible, as in its a limitation of how these are scripted and implemented.

A better alternative may be some sort of way for players to automagically convert a bodak lined armour to the new material with the property, keeping all other things equal.

As long as it's optional. I would prefer the saving throws vs death over the negative resistance, I have jewellery items for 10/- acid and 5/- negative and a combat form for 10/- negative, so saving throws vs getting ganked by death magic and resisting destructions after being dispelled by PvE enemies is highly more appealing.

[MAB77]

Would it not be better to simply leave the Lining as is? Already it was adjusted to stack and if someone wants to specialise their armor that much then they are losing out on stuff elsewhere.  As well as allowing Chitin/Scale to keep those AC bonuses.

Would not work. Unenchanted white stag currently provides no bonus at all. As we are getting rid of the extra enchantment bonus for all linings, you'd still end up with a lining providing no bonus and we'll not make any exceptions. While, yes, gilding bonuses are meant to stack, the combination of platinum gilding with that of enchanted white stag was an oversight, it just rises way too high. If it was closer to the enchanted cold iron/orichalcum setup it would be a different discussion. That particular combination gets a significant bonus vs outsiders (+6), but only vs outsiders, its heavier than other armors and provides no bonus at all vs anything else. The best option would likely be a new scale component to provide that bonus for armors that can't get it.

[Wilkins1952]

Would not work. Unenchanted white stag currently provides no bonus at all. As we are getting rid of the extra enchantment bonus for all linings, you'd still end up with a lining providing no bonus and we'll not make any exceptions. While, yes, gilding bonuses are meant to stack, the combination of platinum gilding with that of enchanted white stag was an oversight, it just rises way too high. If it was closer to the enchanted cold iron/orichalcum setup it would be a different discussion. That particular combination gets a significant bonus vs outsiders (+6), but only vs outsiders, its heavier than other armors and provides no bonus at all vs anything else. The best option would likely be a new scale component to provide that bonus for armors that can't get it.

Would the better fix then not be a Decrease in the AC that white stag gives and replacing it's other properties with an AC Vs. Undead. This makes White stag still unique and fit a niche role in the crafting table without having to create yet a new item. Because with this change there is zero difference between regular Deer and White Stag. Which at that point why have it in the game as a drop and a potential lining

[Zyemeth]

Would not work. Unenchanted white stag currently provides no bonus at all. As we are getting rid of the extra enchantment bonus for all linings, you'd still end up with a lining providing no bonus and we'll not make any exceptions. While, yes, gilding bonuses are meant to stack, the combination of platinum gilding with that of enchanted white stag was an oversight, it just rises way too high. If it was closer to the enchanted cold iron/orichalcum setup it would be a different discussion. That particular combination gets a significant bonus vs outsiders (+6), but only vs outsiders, its heavier than other armors and provides no bonus at all vs anything else. The best option would likely be a new scale component to provide that bonus for armors that can't get it.

Would the better fix then not be a Decrease in the AC that white stag gives and replacing it's other properties with an AC Vs. Undead. This makes White stag still unique and fit a niche role in the crafting table without having to create yet a new item. Because with this change there is zero difference between regular Deer and White Stag. Which at that point why have it in the game as a drop and a potential lining

This

[Madame Trousers Son]

Just to be clear, if I want my caster to have Acid DR robes, that will still be possible with gargoyle leather, or are we saying right now that that option is being taken completely off the table?

[Hastearms]

A slightly more measured change for weapons. Make both melee and ranged enchant to +3 with +4 against their gilding/horn. Many enemies need +3 to harm through DR even some in mid level content. At least this way enchanting a weapon means you don't rely on consumables or using all of a warders spell slots just to do reliable damage but a warder is still preferred to give gmw to reach +4 as an advantage during some circumstances. This change would help martials and casters by letting them make use of spell slots more freely. As it stands my third and fourth level spells are almost always filled as a majority of gmw as a caster to give a party what a dungeon requires to deal damage.

At least you can still nerf the +5 down to 4 for bows.

+1 this, the fact you need GMW for a some mid-level content really hurts, more so if there are dual wielders and only a single or even two mid level warding character(s) just feels like slots you don't get to even choose what to do with since you need to pack GMW for everyone to get though DR

[MAB77]

Just to be clear, if I want my caster to have Acid DR robes, that will still be possible with gargoyle leather, or are we saying right now that that option is being taken completely off the table?

Current intent is to have acid DR covered through new options geared toward monk equipment. It's not a done deal, but it may come with arcane spell failure. Arcane casters can already invest in Mestil's Acid Shield. Part of the strategy to bridge the gap between mundanes and casters is also that they ought to use their powers to protect themselves.

[Aeryndyl]

A slightly more measured change for weapons. Make both melee and ranged enchant to +3 with +4 against their gilding/horn. Many enemies need +3 to harm through DR even some in mid level content. At least this way enchanting a weapon means you don't rely on consumables or using all of a warders spell slots just to do reliable damage but a warder is still preferred to give gmw to reach +4 as an advantage during some circumstances. This change would help martials and casters by letting them make use of spell slots more freely. As it stands my third and fourth level spells are almost always filled as a majority of gmw as a caster to give a party what a dungeon requires to deal damage.

At least you can still nerf the +5 down to 4 for bows.

+1 this, the fact you need GMW for a some mid-level content really hurts, more so if there are dual wielders and only a single or even two mid level warding character(s) just feels like slots you don't get to even choose what to do with since you need to pack GMW for everyone to get though DR

Agreed.

[MAB77]

Would the better fix then not be a Decrease in the AC that white stag gives and replacing it's other properties with an AC Vs. Undead. This makes White stag still unique and fit a niche role in the crafting table without having to create yet a new item. Because with this change there is zero difference between regular Deer and White Stag. Which at that point why have it in the game as a drop and a potential lining

Platinum gilding already takes care of much of the need for AC vs undead on metal armors. It's not needed for padded/leather/studded leathers as those naturally get to +4 AC once enchanted. It would be possible to have the +2 AC vs undead apply only to chitin/scale armors. White stag leather would remain relevant even if just used as a practice component.

[Anarcoplayba]

Just to be clear, if I want my caster to have Acid DR robes, that will still be possible with gargoyle leather, or are we saying right now that that option is being taken completely off the table?

Current intent is to have acid DR covered through new options geared toward monk equipment. It's not a done deal, but it may come with arcane spell failure. Arcane casters can already invest in Mestil's Acid Shield. Part of the strategy to bridge the gap between mundanes and casters is also that they ought to use their powers to protect themselves.

But... Mestil's acid sheat do not give acid DR neither in the spell description neither in the wiki.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Current intent is to have acid DR covered through new options geared toward monk equipment. It's not a done deal, but it may come with arcane spell failure. Arcane casters can already invest in Mestil's Acid Shield. Part of the strategy to bridge the gap between mundanes and casters is also that they ought to use their powers to protect themselves.

Okay, that's what I understood.

I'd request you at least allow a path for casters to retain Acid DR 5. I agree that DR 10 was probably too strong, but I specifically wanted Acid DR for style and character reasons as well as game mechanics.

Sure, I could just wear an Acid Resistance amulet (especially for PvE, where Acid DR 10 is probably most useful), but that argument goes both ways: that means allowing Acid DR 5 on enchanted caster robes isn't going to be hurting the meta.

[MAB77]

+1 this, the fact you need GMW for a some mid-level content really hurts, more so if there are dual wielders and only a single or even two mid level warding character(s) just feels like slots you don't get to even choose what to do with since you need to pack GMW for everyone to get though DR

Glowing Magical Varnishes (tier 2, +3 EB bonus) are your friends. Easy to come buy, long lasting and free spell slots.

That said, the option allowing for a +1 bow, will be considered.

[MAB77]

But... Mestil's acid sheat do not give acid DR neither in the spell description neither in the wiki.

My bad, had another elemental shield spell in mind. Meant energy buffer.

[myrddraal]

I would agree with having white stag+platinum enchant to+5 vs undead at least. Make white stag just give +1vs undead when non enchanted so stag+platinum unenchanted is +3 vs undead. Could also have enchanted electrum still give 5acid DR and change gargoyle to be more thematic.

Gargoyle can be piercing AC like other high tier linings, heavy too, and saves vs. petrification. Enchanted makes immune to petrification. Really plays well with the gargoyle theme.

immunity to petrification, while niche, would be immensely powerful.  More so in PVP than it would be in PVE.  Few creatures will turn you to stone, but druids likely will any time you go to fight them.  As much as I love the thematic emphasis on gargoyle hide, that would be too powerful.

[GrosslyIncandescent]

A slightly more measured change for weapons. Make both melee and ranged enchant to +3 with +4 against their gilding/horn. Many enemies need +3 to harm through DR even some in mid level content. At least this way enchanting a weapon means you don't rely on consumables or using all of a warders spell slots just to do reliable damage but a warder is still preferred to give gmw to reach +4 as an advantage during some circumstances. This change would help martials and casters by letting them make use of spell slots more freely. As it stands my third and fourth level spells are almost always filled as a majority of gmw as a caster to give a party what a dungeon requires to deal damage.

At least you can still nerf the +5 down to 4 for bows.

I like this suggestion. If this were the case, I might actually make a ranged character. I feel guilty when warding a party as melee characters are always prioritized, leaving my ranged party members with whatever scraps are leftover.

[Hastearms]

+1 this, the fact you need GMW for a some mid-level content really hurts, more so if there are dual wielders and only a single or even two mid level warding character(s) just feels like slots you don't get to even choose what to do with since you need to pack GMW for everyone to get though DR

Glowing Magical Varnishes (tier 2, +3 EB bonus) are your friends. Easy to come buy, long lasting and free spell slots.

That said, the option allowing for a +1 bow, will be considered.

Very true, but at the same time you could varnish a dropped weapon and get nearly the same output of damage compared to an enchanted weapon. It feels like enchanting a weapon is underwhelming if you are going to have to varnish your weapon regardless.

[EO]

Very true, but at the same time you could varnish a dropped weapon and get nearly the same output of damage compared to an enchanted weapon. It feels like enchanting a weapon is underwhelming if you are going to have to varnish your weapon regardless.

Enchanting is a permanent buff, which can't be dispelled or removed, so it stands to reason it can be outclassed by a temporary buff.

[Anastian]

Hello!
Did I get it correctly? Enchanted crafted equipment will be, as a consequence, disenchanted and you will have to re-envhant? Or will the stats just be overridden?

I am asking because if the characters are given back xp from DMs, they will immediately jump to blind drive given the sheer amount of XP being handed out. This would need to be handled outside the canonical xp system or any single enchanted item will red cap those looking for a refund.

Reiterating the question as I couldn't find an answer!

@MAB

I would also like to toss an idea in the bucket regarding refunds.
Given some characters might opt to keep the XP instead of re-enchanting, and that might lead to a sudden jump to higher levels of some characters.. Wouldn't it be interesting to address the refund issue with a standardized materials refund, based on how much XP should be refunded, instead?

This way, at different costs of course according to rarity, players who enchanted and now find that the new armor not entirely suitable to their needs could have an option to use this "XP token" and swap it for materials they might find more useful (e.g. 10k XP = 4 adamantine, or 1 arcane steel ingot?). I can see a script could potentially handle this counting the number of enchanted items per character and providing this "XP token" to be spent in the OOC room accordingly, up to the limit. It would surely make some rarer materials more readily available but it could be a compromise I can see many accepting.

Just a random idea I had today! Maybe it's nonsense, maybe it can help.

[bloodless]

Very true, but at the same time you could varnish a dropped weapon and get nearly the same output of damage compared to an enchanted weapon. It feels like enchanting a weapon is underwhelming if you are going to have to varnish your weapon regardless.

Enchanting is a permanent buff, which can't be dispelled or removed, so it stands to reason it can be outclassed by a temporary buff.

It also adds a lot of positive damage which stacks with any other source of damage and cannot be otherwise replicated. Though there's an argument to be made that this is only really worth it on a 1d4 or higher bonus damage weapons, as the flat 2s and 1s are strictly underwhelming and have better loot alternatives out there.