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Author Topic: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system  (Read 16035 times)

myrddraal

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2023, 12:12:40 AM »
Aside from the XP and time spent on gathering items, the gold spent to obtain materials would also just be lost to anyone who isnt happy with how their armor is going to be post patch.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2023, 12:12:58 AM »
If there are specific enchanted items that are too strong, maybe it would save everyone a lot of time, effort, and stress to expand the "haircut" strategy but otherwise allow the items to exist grandfathered.

Reduce DR 10, such as Acid DR on Electrum robes, to 5; reduce +2 saves to +1. Reduce big skill bonuses to something appropriate.

A "haircut" approach may be able to meet all the goals of this change without fundamentally causing anyone to lose a lot of time and effort. Surely that's fairer all around.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 12:20:14 AM by Madame Trousers Son »
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Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2023, 12:21:15 AM »
Spoiler: show
I cannot believe I agree with Edward here but yes, this is legit the worst change I've seen in a long while, and I've been saying that for SEVERAL changes (Barovian Mist Wall is still objectively terrible, har har). Why the Hell would you keep playing if you know MAB could just go on and literally revert months of levels/time spent on your enchanted things because he wants to rebalance things without any comepensation?

No, don't do this. Rethink it. It's a very bad idea.


Spoiler: show
Hello,

I've decided that the power level of the toughness feat and that it is such an auto-pick for most character builds is problematic.

As such I've changed toughness to be a +2 ac bonus against shifters. YOu will receive 2k xp, and no, there will not be remakes allowed because it isn't fair to the DM team to put this all on them.

I understand that you've spent years designing your build/equipment loadout to be just right, but this is the way things are.


I am reluctant to do so, as it's not my place to moderate the forums, nor dictate the behaviours of others. It is fair and understandable that people may not be happy with these changes; good, discuss it. Some people may be emotionally invested in these changes; also understandable if you view your time on PotM as an investment, as some choose to do. However, the tone of statements made throughout these threads are exceedingly unfair to our development team. I hardly believe they are incapable of making mistakes, nor of bad decision making, but at no point is it acceptable to resort to either personally targetting members of the development team, nor to further degrade discussion with farcical, unhelpful contributions to the thread.

If we as a community hope to actually engage in a discussion of these changes and find compromises, or suitable changes to the proposed upcoming craft system, we'll have a better chance of doing so if we actually do so with a calm mind to one-another. I am certainly no paragon of polite discourse, but if we're going to bring out the pitchforks and torches, the discussion will be shut down and changes might very well be made without the community's input.

As an aside; the fact that refunding of materials is contentious speaks to the lack of manpower available to perform administrative duties. I'm aware we've brought it up previously in recent discussions, but once more I think it's worth considering opening up the DM ranks to administrative roles, but that is a discussion for another thread.

TL;DR, have your say, but watch yo tone.

Spoiler: show

EarlofEtheria

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2023, 12:28:14 AM »
The changes to ranged weapons is off-center for me, its like all of them will have a sticker on the side that'll read "just add Varnish!".

Also, what about Worg linings, are they also being treated like Bodak?

Edit: Lowkey, Gargoyle lining changes are appreciated.

Edit2: If I happen to have several identical enchanted items, will I be able to trade all of them to XP as below? Or will that only extend to the first?


How the changes will be handled

The changes above will be retroactively applied on all crafted items for all characters. There will be no grandfathered items. It is acknowledged that it will be significant for a good number of items. Please understand that it will not be possible to replace each and every items impacted by the change. To be fair to everyone, we will not replace any item at all. It will however be allowed to trade-in your enchanted crafted items to regain the experience cost of the enchanting, but not the crafting materials.


Now, it is expected and understood this change will not please everyone. It will be too much for some, not enough for others, but this is the consensus the dev team agreed upon. That isn't to say this is all set in stone. We have a couple months before this is enacted and can still tweak a few things here and there before doing so. This thread is therefore opened for feedback and suggestions about the plan, but keep it to constructive comments only.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 12:45:49 AM by EarlofEtheria »

remnar

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2023, 12:30:29 AM »
At risk of sending constructive criticism into the void of a hot, divisive topic...

I'm pretty happy getting rid of the 'hidden' enchant-only bonuses from certain materials.  I didn't even know white-stag did something special!  And I'm glad some new materials are being put in to rectify the loss of things.

I think only the universal saving throws from enchanting should be lowered to a maximum of +1.  A lot of other saves are often particular to certain situations so having very high of those isn't such a big deal.  (This is assuming I understand this change correctly)

I disagree on electrum, though. 
The acid resistance is a very useful thing and ties in well with the corrosion resistance.  I think we can keep it and still have a place for gargoyle lining (especially on leather armor!)
I also don't think it should get +2 vs shifters.  Silver is made mostly useless in this case when it was already a lesser-taken gilding.  Everyone knows you only take silver gilding, if at all, in low levels when there are many shifter enemies.  Then you use GMW or platinum, as there aren't enough werebeast enemies beyond low levels to make it worth it.  And unlike gildings such as byshek, which are very niche, there are some particular dungeons which do have quite a few abberations!
Personally, I think electrum gilding is fine.  It will still likely be the most taken gilding on chestpiece still, due to the non-corrosion effects, since if your armor gets rusted away by oozes, you won't be too concerned with the AC bonus of it anymore.

As for skills, I don't think they need to be reduced, but...it is what it is and it's no great loss.

That said, no grandfathering is good.  People screamed and screeched over single points of skills on enchanted boots awhile back that were grandfathered and we're still dealing with the circulation of grandfathered items between the same people and the same groups.  It's better this way.
I'm neutral on reimbursement, because I don't use anything that's under contention, but I understand the pain of folks who've got their electrum addy bodak.

fun fact the forums does not believe electrum is a word

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2023, 12:49:06 AM »
[..]
Secondly, and I repeat it here as it seems it got lost in the chaos. We are looking for solutions to the issue that is currently preventing us from automatically refund components. We heard you loud and clear. Rare components are valued and you don't want to lose them, we get that. We WILL work harder to find a suitable solution.

This would be, as an "outsider" looking in, my main concern. I am glad it's being looked into, if there is not a viable satisfactory refund, I have less confidence behind this change. This is just my honest opinion on it, I don't have much else to add, and I'm going to trust that the proposed changes will level things out since, uh, I don't really feel overly involved with it all and therefore am not in a good position to comment on it more.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #81 on: May 15, 2023, 12:49:54 AM »
Spoiler: show
I cannot believe I agree with Edward here but yes, this is legit the worst change I've seen in a long while, and I've been saying that for SEVERAL changes (Barovian Mist Wall is still objectively terrible, har har). Why the Hell would you keep playing if you know MAB could just go on and literally revert months of levels/time spent on your enchanted things because he wants to rebalance things without any comepensation?

No, don't do this. Rethink it. It's a very bad idea.


Spoiler: show
Hello,

I've decided that the power level of the toughness feat and that it is such an auto-pick for most character builds is problematic.

As such I've changed toughness to be a +2 ac bonus against shifters. YOu will receive 2k xp, and no, there will not be remakes allowed because it isn't fair to the DM team to put this all on them.

I understand that you've spent years designing your build/equipment loadout to be just right, but this is the way things are.


I am reluctant to do so, as it's not my place to moderate the forums, nor dictate the behaviours of others. It is fair and understandable that people may not be happy with these changes; good, discuss it. Some people may be emotionally invested in these changes; also understandable if you view your time on PotM as an investment, as some choose to do. However, the tone of statements made throughout these threads are exceedingly unfair to our development team. I hardly believe they are incapable of making mistakes, nor of bad decision making, but at no point is it acceptable to resort to either personally targetting members of the development team, nor to further degrade discussion with farcical, unhelpful contributions to the thread.

If we as a community hope to actually engage in a discussion of these changes and find compromises, or suitable changes to the proposed upcoming craft system, we'll have a better chance of doing so if we actually do so with a calm mind to one-another. I am certainly no paragon of polite discourse, but if we're going to bring out the pitchforks and torches, the discussion will be shut down and changes might very well be made without the community's input.

As an aside; the fact that refunding of materials is contentious speaks to the lack of manpower available to perform administrative duties. I'm aware we've brought it up previously in recent discussions, but once more I think it's worth considering opening up the DM ranks to administrative roles, but that is a discussion for another thread.

TL;DR, have your say, but watch yo tone.

Spoiler: show


Hey man, I am just following the logic and the context used by the original post and made an example to show the absurdity of the changes that were considered reasonable, if that reads as offensive to you because my idea is hypothetical and is larking on the logic used,  then wait till ya see the real deal, its on page one my friend.

Anastian

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2023, 01:17:10 AM »
Hello!
Did I get it correctly? Enchanted crafted equipment will be, as a consequence, disenchanted and you will have to re-envhant? Or will the stats just be overridden?

I am asking because if the characters are given back xp from DMs, they will immediately jump to blind drive given the sheer amount of XP being handed out. This would need to be handled outside the canonical xp system or any single enchanted item will red cap those looking for a refund.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2023, 02:16:14 AM »
Will those that have built around specific item stats being known be given a rebuild with this going forwards to ensure they can still meet certain levels of skills?
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2023, 02:41:15 AM »
This is a good adjustment. I'm glad it's going to be retroactive as well.

Zyemeth

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2023, 03:19:50 AM »
If there are specific enchanted items that are too strong, maybe it would save everyone a lot of time, effort, and stress to expand the "haircut" strategy but otherwise allow the items to exist grandfathered.

Reduce DR 10, such as Acid DR on Electrum robes, to 5; reduce +2 saves to +1. Reduce big skill bonuses to something appropriate.

A "haircut" approach may be able to meet all the goals of this change without fundamentally causing anyone to lose a lot of time and effort. Surely that's fairer all around.

Reducing electrum to still give 5 acid DR is more reasonable and immersive. It covers you and can't be corroded so by that logic you shouldn't be getting burned as much by corrosive matter.

Chadyo

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2023, 03:43:56 AM »
Every single item that's had a significant change has always been grand fathered, and now suddenly we don't do grand fathering anymore? I've spend the last year on POTM slowly enchanting my way up to get all items enchanted just to see them nerfed now.

I'm not a happy camper, I am an exceptionally unhappy camper.

Edit:

And once again it's just all negatives in a nerf, it's not like you're making the enchanting cost less XP?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 04:02:02 AM by Chadyo »

gotesu

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2023, 03:59:26 AM »
Tell me then, aside from Bodak lining and Electrum losing their respective DR.
What is it in those changes that is so devastating?

I think this is the main issue - Enchanted gear has a -tremendous- effect on how ppl plan their character and builds, on how much time they spend (months, years) trying to collect materials, craft, enchant etc.

The upcoming change would nullify years of investment and will require years of further investment - and this ought to be acknowledged.

I appreciate giving us a heads up months in advance so it can be discussed openly. But, I do strongly think the need to compensate ppl for their time (and spare them the pain of needing to spend -more- time over it) is mandatory if you dont want to give players the feeling their time is disregarded : refund of xp, crafting materials and even relevels.

I am all for this change - and I also think grandfathering enchanted gear would not be a good idea, but I do think full reimburse is needed even if it's a huge headache for the staff.


Duayne

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2023, 04:07:45 AM »
Bit of an L take tbh Chadyo. Essentially: "I'm unhappy I don't have an advantage over people that enchant post system change". Retroactive changes are always the best option for anything, keeps the ground level.

I do agree with your edit though, if the gear is losing a bunch of its benefit, perhaps the cost of enchanting should be reduced to reflect this.

Krosenq

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2023, 04:32:38 AM »
Tell me then, aside from Bodak lining and Electrum losing their respective DR.
What is it in those changes that is so devastating?

I think this is the main issue - Enchanted gear has a -tremendous- effect on how ppl plan their character and builds, on how much time they spend (months, years) trying to collect materials, craft, enchant etc.

The upcoming change would nullify years of investment and will require years of further investment - and this ought to be acknowledged.


I think this kind of highlights why it's a good change. I don't think we should have systems that require years of investment. Personally I don't think that enchanting items vs gaining more levels should be a clear-cut choice. It's /one/way to gain power, especially if your character is at a high level. But the fact that it's become the  de facto standard to systematically plan around destroying your soul around level 14- I would rather see that going away. And if the only way to push people in that direction is to temper the gains from enchanting a bit, I'm all for it.

When everyone is hindering their own personal growth because of ooc planning around skill points from gear, I think that's a problem.
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gotesu

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2023, 05:10:04 AM »
Tell me then, aside from Bodak lining and Electrum losing their respective DR.
What is it in those changes that is so devastating?

I think this is the main issue - Enchanted gear has a -tremendous- effect on how ppl plan their character and builds, on how much time they spend (months, years) trying to collect materials, craft, enchant etc.

The upcoming change would nullify years of investment and will require years of further investment - and this ought to be acknowledged.


I think this kind of highlights why it's a good change. I don't think we should have systems that require years of investment. Personally I don't think that enchanting items vs gaining more levels should be a clear-cut choice. It's /one/way to gain power, especially if your character is at a high level. But the fact that it's become the  de facto standard to systematically plan around destroying your soul around level 14- I would rather see that going away. And if the only way to push people in that direction is to temper the gains from enchanting a bit, I'm all for it.

When everyone is hindering their own personal growth because of ooc planning around skill points from gear, I think that's a problem.

I very much agree, which is why I think this change is good. What Im saying is that there need to be a way that doesn't throw people's huge investment on it out the window.

Chadyo

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2023, 05:15:22 AM »
Bit of an L take tbh Chadyo. Essentially: "I'm unhappy I don't have an advantage over people that enchant post system change". Retroactive changes are always the best option for anything, keeps the ground level.

I do agree with your edit though, if the gear is losing a bunch of its benefit, perhaps the cost of enchanting should be reduced to reflect this.

I just don't understand why some things are grandfather, and some things aren't it really seems to be in the whims of the winds. I've never benefited from grand fathered items before, I completely agree with grandfathered gear being strange in most cases but now we have some cases which it isn't and some cases where it is. And in my humble opinion the moment a system has been running as long as enchanting has you can't change your mind after how many years it's been up?

It's going to lead to anger, and loss of motivation especially when there is little to no compromise apart from regaining the XP (You still loose the materials.)

This nerf essentially means that I loose -4 to all my saves which isn't a small nerf. I'm all for finding the right balance but this isn't the way.

There's also something else to consider, this'll put significant strain on the DM's to do the XP refunds, it's already a known issue that we're short on DM's

JustMonika

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2023, 05:24:10 AM »
I've thought about posting for a while, and I'll do so for the sake of offering an alternate perspective.

I've been here for sufficently many years I've lost track now. (Four I think.)

I've played all the way up to level 18, I think I've visited every dungeon on the server, (You never know!) I've played in Barovia, Port-a-Lucine, I've hung around the Mist Camp, I've regularly wandered the mists, I've played a Paladin, a Wizard, a Sorcerer, a Rogue, a Hexblade, etc etc.

I've never once enchanted a piece of gear, or felt it was needed to do so. Not having said gear has to my understanding, never impacted my play experience. No-one seems to complain when I dungeon with them, and I very rarely ever die. (Except during a recent visit to Blackwatch when I had an unfortunate experience with people setting off electric traps, in which I died more times than I normally do on two characters combined.)

Now this means I'll never be able to understand the hurt and frustration people are expressing in this thread, so I won't comment on that.

But what I wanted to stress is that I'm not alone. A lot of people play characters that will forever remain low level. A lot of characters will not be impacted in a meaningful way by this change. Even those who reach high level will not always engage with the enchanting system.

I would however, be impacted by the DM Team being buried in requests. I already find them very hard to get ahold of, so I can't overstate how much of a burden even a modest amount of admin work would be for our overstretched team, not to mention likely, 'Not fun' for them, which helps drive burnout.

I appreciate my support for this change is in the minority. I know it impacts all of you, and doesn't impact me in the slightest. But  I just wanted to share that there are other playstyles, experiences, and impacts not so far expressed which are worth considering.

Stay excellent everyone.

Note - The XP Refunds referenced so far are automated, and do not require DM supervision. (Is my understanding.)

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2023, 05:29:11 AM »
While it's true that enchanting has been around for years, tailoring has not been. The introduction of potentially 3 new items that provide saves through enchanting was something that was bound to be evaluated over time, imo.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2023, 05:45:20 AM »
The only stat nerf is to the chest piece slot. Any other change is just material properties. i.e. we're losing 1 save, not up to 4, and combined up to 5 skill points - 1 from first bonus, 1 from second (these two exist pre item enchant), and 3 from third (this only appears after enchanting and no longer will).

e.g. My enchanted chest piece right now has +3 ac, 3 soak, +2 uni save, +6 spellcraft, +5 concentration, +3 lore.
After the change it'll have same armor and soak, and only +1 save, +5 sc, +4 conc, no lore.

No other inventory slot will be affected by this specific part of the changes.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 05:49:11 AM by bloodless »

MAB77

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2023, 06:11:21 AM »

Hey man, I am just following the logic and the context used by the original post and made an example to show the absurdity of the changes that were considered reasonable, if that reads as offensive to you because my idea is hypothetical and is larking on the logic used,  then wait till ya see the real deal, its on page one my friend.

No, you were out of line. There is nothing absurd in this change, it was a long time coming. Several users also have commented in favor of it. I suppose I see game balance in a very different way that you do being on the other side of the fence. You may not like the proposal, that is fair.  You may disagree with the stance we intend to take if we can't resolve the refunding issue, that much I understand. But commenting as you did was unacceptable. That is why your first post was deleted. You want to be part of the discussion be constructive and polite, or don't post.

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2023, 06:33:33 AM »
Love it!

Kudos to the team, it's a tough call but it will be for the better.

Anyone who has invested their entire build towards enchanted items can always throw in for a remake.

Addy along with many other rare materials are going to be on a lot of people's wishlist which will keep crafters, hunters, traders all busy. Love me a bit of turmoil, gets the juices going!


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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2023, 06:37:02 AM »
It seems to me that what is felt the most is losing negative energy DR on Bodak lined armors. Most other armors will not require a refund. If we can't make the automatic refund of components work (and yes we are looking at resolving that), an alternative may be to simply keep negative energy DR on Bodak lined armors, and move the Death ST bonus to another lining (say white stag).

The amount of players wishing for the death ST instead of the DR are likely significantly less numerous. It becomes easier to manually manage exceptions.

The change to electrum is less problematic. It may lose acid DR, but remains a good gilding choice thanks to its anti-corrosion property alone.
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Adamant

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2023, 06:48:46 AM »
So after looking through the possible changes and going through character options that the Dev team has with the DM teams limited time to deal with the problems that refunding mats will have as well as the impossibility of refunding materials with automation and the dev team wishing for a rebalance of the current items.
Perhaps a middle ground could be reached that I have thought of.

A partial grandfathering and partial update to the items.

Firstly an update to all current enchated items would be had as follow:

- Armors and clothing's to have the universal and other saving throws reduced to +1 instead of +2.
- Ranged/thrown weapons enchantment bonus reduced to +2 instead of +3.
- The extra bonus that only applied upon enchanting armors and tailored clothes is entirely eliminated.

This is the biggest proponent behind the Dev teams problems of saves being to high I believe, however I could be incorrect.

After this however, the items will be grandfathered in their current place and the other changes will go forward.

This adds more of the "haircut" idea without it being terribly more advantageous to use old items over the new set. I dont feel like the changes to guilding options/metals are terribly to strong being only 10dr that is easily replicated with items like necklaces of ____ resist is to much to grandfather in, considering the previous times this has been done.

This stops people from having to change their current gear or being upset that they need new gear, as (while nerfed) is the best they can get and likely (very slightly) better then other options they will have, though like with the inclusion of the new metal people will need to enchant different items anyways as Driftmetal will completely shut down most wizards, Sorcerers and warmages current favorite option of IGMS.

Wrapping up I feel like this is a good in between that appeases both the dev team with its balance to reduce saving throws, while not ruining any items that are currently had so that players dont lose any progress.

Thank you,

Adamant
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 07:00:42 AM by Adamant »

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2023, 06:53:47 AM »
Making such a sweeping change without offering people recourse whom built around it cannot, should not, and never should have been an option.  That it ever was is going to be something that frankly erodes my trust in the development team considerably.

Most of the language in this thread from the development team tells me that I am likely wasting my time commenting on it as the change will happen anyways, but I felt it important to highlight that coming off the controversy we recently had where trust is already low, the optics of this are absolutely rancid.

As was pointed out by another poster, sometimes what the change is, isnt the problem, but rather the means by which the change is implemented; how we go about the change.  To have something that invalidates both builds people have and a large tract of effort some players have put in, dropped on us for "discussion" when it seems clear its going to happen anyways feels disingenuous at best.
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