Important changes coming regarding the crafting system

[CrazedElkPie]

As developers you guys are acutely aware of the difficulty of gathering items such as dragon scales, arcane steel, adamantium, and other rare metals. You know their drop rates are insanely low and for good reason. But with the sweeping changes to, let's call it like it is, the meta, and to not give materials back as compensation, is pretty harsh.

The changes seem good and they'll be beneficial in the future. But the invalidation of countless hours of work and such for those materials to make those armors is unlikely to be looked at as anything other than goofy at best and wildly unreasonable at worst.

It makes more sense to just alter the current materials and lower their benefit numbers, and offer alternatives in case you want to make that grind again. It makes that hard work being trash now not quite so bad.

Please reconsider this change as it stands for now. It's further off like you said so there's plenty of time to reconsider. Please?

[KovosDatch]

Personally, I'd rather just see the grandfathered items and have these changes move forward for future crafted gear after the HAK update.

[apeppertoo]

It would probably be considerably easier to refund materials, even on a manual basis, if you allowed people to publicly post the costs and stats of crafted items on some resource like the wiki. Enchanting included.

Given the investment involved it is inexcusable for people to have to either ask a more experienced player what to wear or, worse, experiment with costly materials and XP.

[MAB77]

While some of the changes to stats on the armor themselves are nice, these changes were also completely unnecessary and will very likely only turn out to harm the players more than anything. The decision to push this change should probably be reconsidered heavily.

Many people are feeling their time and effort being thrown to the wayside for a change that didn't really need to happen in the first place.

On this I disagree, the power creep induced over the years is a real issue observed by lots of players and DMs. This is what we are addressing here. And the changes are rather mild, with the exception of a few properties (like bodak lined armors losing Negative energy DR) whose lost will be felt more keenly. The change brings the crafting gear relatively near (still slightly above) the power levels we had before the tailoring overhaul. Some could say I am correcting my own mistakes in a way. But I would certainly not do it if I didn,t felt it was better for the server as a whole.

I feel like the damage this will do will be both irreversible and unfortunate to witness the aftereffect of, peoples time and effort are both being given little thought or interest. Which is saddening, quite frankly. This is not a good change and literally isn’t fixing anything because there isn’t a issue.

I cannot believe I agree with Edward here but yes, this is legit the worst change I've seen in a long while, and I've been saying that for SEVERAL changes (Barovian Mist Wall is still objectively terrible, har har). Why the Hell would you keep playing if you know MAB could just go on and literally revert months of levels/time spent on your enchanted things because he wants to rebalance things without any comepensation?

No, don't do this. Rethink it. It's a very bad idea.

First of don't make it about me. I may be the one that will implement this, but it is a dev team decision brought about years of concerns brought to us by various sources, players and DMs alike. I don't have the power to make anything I want on a whim, nor would I want it anyway, I am committed to improve this server and everything I do is done in accordance with the will of the Dev team. Granted we may have different views on what this entails.

Secondly, and I repeat it here as it seems it got lost in the chaos. We are looking for solutions to the issue that is currently preventing us from automatically refund components. We heard you loud and clear. Rare components are valued and you don't want to lose them, we get that. We WILL work harder to find a suitable solution.

Thirdly, it's not like everyone will need to replace their enchanted gear anyway. For the vast majority they will still perform closely enough to what it is now. It is understood that some, like bodak lined armors will be more impacted than others, but even without Negative Energy DR, they are still of use. Anyway, though we do try to avoid making exceptions and automate all the changes as to alleviate the DMs workload, we remain aware that some exceptions will be required.

[Maiyannah]

And the changes are rather mild, with the exception of a few properties (like bodak lined armors losing Negative energy DR) whose lost will be felt more keenly. The change brings the crafting gear relatively near (still slightly above) the power levels we had before the tailoring overhaul. Some could say I am correcting my own mistakes in a way. But I would certainly not do it if I didn,t felt it was better for the server as a whole.

The perception of the player base and the perception of the developers seem to vary wildly here.  Some introspection as to why that is, might be a good thing.

[MAB77]

And the changes are rather mild, with the exception of a few properties (like bodak lined armors losing Negative energy DR) whose lost will be felt more keenly. The change brings the crafting gear relatively near (still slightly above) the power levels we had before the tailoring overhaul. Some could say I am correcting my own mistakes in a way. But I would certainly not do it if I didn,t felt it was better for the server as a whole.

The perception of the player base and the perception of the developers seem to vary wildly here.  Some introspection as to why that is, might be a good thing.

Tell me then, aside from Bodak lining and Electrum losing their respective DR.
What is it in those changes that is so devastating?

[Anarcoplayba]

The only thing that truly bothers me is the no materials/armors exchange.

Being direct: I spent a whole lotta time farming adamantine to make a bodak electrum enchanted full plate. In a swoop I lost all the planned equipment and ended with a completely different stuff?

At least an app for exchanging equipment would be nice.

This is the main recurring concern yes, but the issue is that it is extremely difficult to reverse engineer the crafted armors. It is unthinkable to ask for DMs to manually refund crafting components for every items that will be changed. I will be looking at options, but if we can't make the refund automatic, it just won't be.

An option that may be possible though is to automatically convert bodak lined armors to the new bolt of shadow silk linings. You will still lose Acid DR and ST vs death, but you will retain Negative Energy DR and AC +4 vs shapechangers.

For me: please do so. I believe that nobody enchanted the bodak lining for the ST vs death. I would still keep the electrum gilding in having to choose, but the bodak lining seems by far the worst change.

On a more general matter though, the same way affected players get a relevel, I'd like to politely ask for an app locked substitution, because people might prefer acid dr over negative energy dr (one of my pcs would prefer one to the other for sure) .

I am sorry to bother, but something simple: "my armor is addy electrum bodak, I want an addy platinum gargoyle because I care about the acid dr more rhan the negative dr".

Again, it would solve MY problens to simply turn bodak lining into shadow silk, but would be fairer to allow some player choice.

[Maiyannah]

Allow me to answer your question with one of my own:

What do you hope to communicate to players in an environment where we want to make choices relevant, meaningful, and have players give careful consideration and sometimes tremendous effort to those choices ... when you tell them that one of the choices they made has been rendered moot through something out of character they have vanishingly little control over?

[Famous Seamus]

While we're making sweeping changes, I would encourage the Dev Team to switch the bonus conferred by gold gilding. As it stands, gold gilding provides an Influence bonus. This is positively useless in nearly every circumstance outside of a DM or (A)MPC plot in which an Influence roll is called for. Consider:
-- Casual RP - Stat rolls are nonbinding (i.e., the other party doesn't have to acknowledge them), and rolling Influence for any reason in a casual setting is widely derided and disliked among the player base. Unless someone asks for it, the likelihood of you rolling it voluntarily is slim.
-- Antagonistic RP - Unless the antagonist is a villain or (A)MPC who has graciously called for an Influence roll, this is the same as the Casual RP scenario. (N.b., I can't recall ever once seeing this happen.)
-- PvE - Malthor in Perfidus doesn't care about your Influence score.
-- PvP - The time for rolling Influence has passed.

MAB, you've even said yourself that the rationale behind changing electrum is to make it the best of both worlds between silver and gold . . . except gold on crafted equipment doesn't confer corrosion resistance. If things are being balanced for the sake of fairness, seeing gold bumped up into doing something actually relevant would be nice.

Apart from that, I feel that the overall changes being made are far-reaching and that some should be reconsidered.

The impact to ranged weapons, especially, seems unfair. Yeah, the feats exist and can balance out the changes, but not everyone who uses a ranged weapon has the feats. As it currently stands, many ranged characters, even with the feats, would struggle against or get crushed by a melee character who manages to close the distance, but now the Team wants to create a disparity between the bonuses conferred by crafted items? Come on, man. Leave the ranged weapons at +3. Don't punish people for not "playing the meta" with their feats. This is D&D. There is no meta. I don't even play a ranged character, and this hurts to see.

[Forte]

Secondly, and I repeat it here as it seems it got lost in the chaos. We are looking for solutions to the issue that is currently preventing us from automatically refund components. We heard you loud and clear. Rare components are valued and you don't want to lose them, we get that. We WILL work harder to find a suitable solution.

think not only about the mats, but the time. Would we really want the mats back of something we just wasted time, money, and effort gathering something when we'd already spent the XP/time?

If you are looking into something that can actually re-compensate people for their time, levels, and effort spent, then fine, sure. But levels take weeks, sometimes months, for some people. Any move forward without having XP returned for enchants as they are with this change in mind is simply not acceptable. So long as this solution is here, then it can probably go forward, with no less than that.

[cooachlyfe]

I think we are making many assumptions without knowing all the information. I think we should trust in the dev team and simply wait until the potential changes actually rollout.

[zDark Shadowz]

Can we get darkwood drops for standard +3 bows after enchanting? Horns can still stop at +4. Darkwood is used for masterwork wood crafts.

[EO]

If you are looking into something that can actually re-compensate people for their time, levels, and effort spent, then fine, sure. But levels take weeks, sometimes months, for some people. Any move forward without having XP returned for enchants as they are with this change in mind is simply not acceptable. So long as this solution is here, then it can probably go forward, with no less than that.

As MAB posted in the original topic, XP can be reimbursed automatically. This isn't the first crafting overhaul where we offer people to get their XP reimbursed we've had (might be the third now if memory serves me right). The item is put into a container, the enchanting XP cost is refunded.

Refunding materials is much more complicated to automate since you have to reverse-engineer the item, then find a way to spawn the ingredients back; I wouldn't say it's impossible but there's a reason we've never automated that part. Automation remains the preferred solution, as otherwise, all we're doing if refunding is transferring the workload players don't want to do (rightfully so) onto DMs, who could and would likely prefer to be doing something else (such as taking care of other requests, telling stories, handling matters, etc.).

[Vantes-]

Automation remains the preferred solution, as otherwise, all we're doing if refunding is transferring the workload players don't want to do (rightfully so) onto DMs, who could and would likely prefer to be doing something else (such as taking care of other requests, telling stories, handling matters, etc.).

This is a bit disingenuous when you adjust for how long it would take players to get these materials versus how long it would take to get it manually refunded.

[EO]

Automation remains the preferred solution, as otherwise, all we're doing if refunding is transferring the workload players don't want to do (rightfully so) onto DMs, who could and would likely prefer to be doing something else (such as taking care of other requests, telling stories, handling matters, etc.).

This is a bit disingenuous when you adjust for how long it would take players to get these materials versus how long it would take to get it manually refunded.

Individually yes but there’s more than one player.

[Vantes-]

Individually yes but there’s more than one player.

Yes, there is. How many hours would it take someone to refund 10 players their resources?
Conversely, how much time would it take 10 players to get those resources back?

[zDark Shadowz]

Individually yes but there’s more than one player.

Yes, there is. How many hours would it take someone to refund 10 players their resources?
Conversely, how much time would it take 10 players to get those resources back?

There's only one Perfidus, and it's not always open or seasonably good weather.

[InMyDarkestHours]

I imagine MAB or other developers who know the crafting system have an understanding of how many materials go into the outputs.

If you can't automate,
1. Write a chart for DMs on how many base materials for a full plate, chain mail, etc.
2. Update DM/Dev documentation and/or the DM client palette so DMs can spawn those components in easily.

It is vastly quicker and less painful for those on the DM roster to make themselves available for a couple of weeks to service these requests than it is for the mass of playerbase to acquire it for themselves.

[PlatointheCave]

So old gear will be updated to the new conventions?

Or is it a case of it becoming unusable and a token to turn in for xp when you get a replacement made to enchant?

I'm supportive of the change in general, I'd just like this clarified.

[zDark Shadowz]

So old gear will be updated to the new conventions?

Or is it a case of it becoming unusable and a token to turn in for xp when you get a replacement made to enchant?

I'm supportive of the change in general, I'd just like this clarified.

They'll all be auto-converted to the new modifiers like the adamantine weapons did, and for enchanted things there is an optional XP refund that they have scripts written for, but the materials wont be refunded for this option.

[Anarcoplayba]

Individually yes but there’s more than one player.

Yes, there is. How many hours would it take someone to refund 10 players their resources?
Conversely, how much time would it take 10 players to get those resources back?

Also, yes, it probably is more rewarding to conduct an event than a relevel, but it also is more rewarding to not have the rules changed mid flight.

The dev team acknowledged that the change will impact the playerbase, there must be a middle ground in which no one will feel completely happy nor totally let down.

This would be an awful week of "recrafting", but how hard would be having an avatar with full crafting ranks crafting the pre-approved items?

[PlatointheCave]

Seems good.

I'm against refunds if they increase DM labour.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if all enchanted gear disappeared for good.

[myrddraal]

Automation remains the preferred solution, as otherwise, all we're doing if refunding is transferring the workload players don't want to do (rightfully so) onto DMs, who could and would likely prefer to be doing something else (such as taking care of other requests, telling stories, handling matters, etc.).

This is a bit disingenuous when you adjust for how long it would take players to get these materials versus how long it would take to get it manually refunded.

There may be more than one player, but spawning in say, a set of dragon scales, would take less time for each individual player than for those players to all go find new dragon scales.   Or farm entirely new adamantine sets of gear (especially with the recent change to make it more rare and boost other rarer metals).  Or arcane steel.  The only thing out of those you can semi reliably find is adamantine, but even for that it can take weeks to grind out if you're unlucky enough.  For things like cyrite and dragon scales...I havent -ever- seen them in about 2-3 years of play. It certainly wouldnt take that long to spawn those items for the people who have them and would make alterations.

IMO electrum gilding is more or less made useless with this change taking away its acid DR.  There arent any noteworthy werebeasts to fight at levels where you have enchanted and its basically just existing to bully werewolf / wererat / werecroc etc MPCs now.

Dont get me wrong, I like some of the material changes like gargoyle hide giving acid resistance.  I would love to have more rare dropped hides to pursue.  I can definitely work around the changes.  Some are not great though.  Void spiders being the source of lining for negative energy DR is going to make it *exceptionally* difficult to obtain.

[Facilis]

And the changes are rather mild, with the exception of a few properties (like bodak lined armors losing Negative energy DR) whose lost will be felt more keenly. The change brings the crafting gear relatively near (still slightly above) the power levels we had before the tailoring overhaul. Some could say I am correcting my own mistakes in a way. But I would certainly not do it if I didn,t felt it was better for the server as a whole.

The perception of the player base and the perception of the developers seem to vary wildly here.  Some introspection as to why that is, might be a good thing.

Tell me then, aside from Bodak lining and Electrum losing their respective DR.
What is it in those changes that is so devastating?

I appreciate the clarity and transparency here from MAB.  The devastating factor here is not one over changes themselves, but over a very warranted caution over HOW these changes will be implemented.  Sometimes the 'how' when these changes were implemented led to, hours or days even , of roleplay tossed to the side.  Of course players found other avenues, yet there was displeasure over how their hard work was viewed.  As though the team appeared dismissive, which I highly doubt they were trying to be.

While I do agree with the changes being made, when its compared to the current loot table, I believe that another look in how they are implemented should be done.  I'm currently worrying in how they may be implemented, especially with a shortage of active staff (Or so it seems to most players, I refer to Generic Requests as of typing this).  People have put in time and effort into this.  It feels disrespectful of a player's time for it to be implemented with no refund at all.   And I'd like MAB if possible to expand upon the  'power creep' statement of yours, as I don't think MAB ever expanded upon it in this discussion.  Although I will assume it pertains to the armor/weapons enchanting

To end this perhaps another method to smooth this over is to simply get more DMs and staff willing to help the playerbase with things such as this.

[myrddraal]

Aside from the XP and time spent on gathering items, the gold spent to obtain materials would also just be lost to anyone who isnt happy with how their armor is going to be post patch.