Important changes coming regarding the crafting system

[Vantes-]

This is the main recurring concern yes, but the issue is that it is extremely difficult to reverse engineer the crafted armors. It is unthinkable to ask for DMs to manually refund crafting components for every items that will be changed. I will be looking at options, but if we can't make the refund automatic, it just won't be.

Refunding adamantine should be top priority.

I understand that devs and DMs are volunteers on this server. I actually don't mind the change overall, and I have a character that is heavily affected by it. What I do mind is the loss of time, and being told "too bad so sad" when it comes to getting the materials returned (even JUST the adamantine). This feels incredibly disrespectful to someone's time. And the time that those affected will have to spend competing in Perfidus to restock will be exponentially longer compared to the time it takes to manually refund the materials.

[Kireek]

I can get more xp, everyone can get more xp just by playing the game.

Most people can't get more rare mats by playing the game, you have to rely on other people, and other people compete with you for resources.

This is just another way to penalize non-9th level spellcasters who can't solo everything.

[MAB77]

My comment was deleted.

This is unfair, and is frankly nonsense. I cursed in the last post to give a sense of my sentiments here.

I spent money on materials I have NEVER been able to get myself, and the compensation is I get the xp back?

NAH, I want the materials. The materials is the things I can't get. XP has no value to me.

I overpaid, but I spent 1.5 million on this- my character went from 2.5 mill to 1 mill, I lost a lot for this, for basically a terrible change. Goods, not XP. Goods.

You know our rules. Respect them and that won't happen again. This goes for everyone. I will moderate this thread closely so it does not derail.

The point of the announcement, well in advance of actual implementation, is precisely to discuss these pain points and for the sake of transparency. Keep the comment civil and level-headed. We will be looking for solutions to the main point of contentions.

[myrddraal]

This is the main recurring concern yes, but the issue is that it is extremely difficult to reverse engineer the crafted armors. It is unthinkable to ask for DMs to manually refund crafting components for every items that will be changed. I will be looking at options, but if we can't make the refund automatic, it just won't be.

Refunding adamantine should be top priority.

I understand that devs and DMs are volunteers on this server. I actually don't mind the change overall, and I have a character that is heavily affected by it. What I do mind is the loss of time, and being told "too bad so sad" when it comes to getting the materials returned (even JUST the adamantine). This feels incredibly disrespectful to someone's time. And the time that those affected will have to spend competing in Perfidus to restock will be exponentially longer compared to the time it takes to manually refund the materials.

Adamantine armor is also far CHEAPER than arcane steel.  An ingot of adamantine can be bought from some people for as low as 30,000 and can be subject to a price of up to 60 or 80k if you're really getting gauged.  For those with arcane steel who are paying hundreds of thousands per ingot?  They are absolutely wrecked by some of these changes.  As I had mentioed earlier, it is potentially years of peoples time because the new crafted items caused too steep of power creep since they were enchantable.

I am curious about the questions I posed earlier though, MAB.

[aero]

I think my character will need a relevel after this change, will those be granted aswell ?

[Zyemeth]

This is the main recurring concern yes, but the issue is that it is extremely difficult to reverse engineer the crafted armors. It is unthinkable to ask for DMs to manually refund crafting components for every items that will be changed. I will be looking at options, but if we can't make the refund automatic, it just won't be.

Refunding adamantine should be top priority.

I understand that devs and DMs are volunteers on this server. I actually don't mind the change overall, and I have a character that is heavily affected by it. What I do mind is the loss of time, and being told "too bad so sad" when it comes to getting the materials returned (even JUST the adamantine). This feels incredibly disrespectful to someone's time. And the time that those affected will have to spend competing in Perfidus to restock will be exponentially longer compared to the time it takes to manually refund the materials.

Adamantine armor is also far CHEAPER than arcane steel.  An ingot of adamantine can be bought from some people for as low as 30,000 and can be subject to a price of up to 60 or 80k if you're really getting gauged.  For those with arcane steel who are paying hundreds of thousands per ingot?  They are absolutely wrecked by some of these changes.  As I had mentioed earlier, it is potentially years of peoples time because the new crafted items caused too steep of power creep since they were enchantable.

I am curious about the questions I posed earlier though, MAB.

It's the money and the time investment. It will take MONTHS of dedication to get the material again especially if the whole server suddenly decides that it has to go do that again. Then it also might take months to get the money to purchase said material. Offering to exchange the lining of bodak to shadow silk to keep the similar existing bonus does nullify a lot of that for a lot of people at least since that was the norm for many builds.

That time investment for even rarer materials than addy hurts even more. I have a character with bodak lined green dragon scales and aside from the first time I ever got my hands on a pair I haven't seen any in person for 2 years since. So if the lining isn't replaced I'm basically just done with that character as far as content goes. No way I'm going to hunt down another dragon scale drop.

[Caelumaresh]

Considering the outcry in the discord, I propose;

- Either a refunds spent on enchanting the gear, in terms of XP. (MAB said this is a thing already, correct me if I am wrong)
- Or a refunds in materials spent.

And if the former is already true, please consider the latter for those affected most.

[MAB77]

So...broad strokes...

Enchanted gear like say, a cloak, that gives extra parry and con, the extra value provided by enchanting for parry and concentration are going to be nullified?  Does this also include things like flame snake lining no longer will provide 15 fire damage reduction after enchanting rather than 5 before enchanting?

Are other metal properties going to be effected aside from what was listed with electrum having its acid DR taken away and AC to shifters added?

How does this effect things like deflection AC for cloaks? (one of the sole reasons I personally enchanted one)

Will the 3 extra ac from armor being enchanted remain in place?

Are secondary properties such as resistance to death magic from Bodak lining going to remain and are they now the more attractive aspect of enchanting said pieces of equipment?

Will there be a full list of the changes to lining properties before and after enchanting made or will it be full FOIC?  Because this will make a sweeping change to what EVERYONE is currently wearing, enchanted or not.  People have spent months (in some cases perhaps even actual years for the rarer metals like arcane steel) gathering funds or acquiring items with an understanding of how they functioned as they did rather than how they are being changed to be.

Are there plans to impliment other items to help increase peoples skills like discipline to avoid a character being knocked down?  For non martial classes those values when enchanting were very important.

Cloaks and hoods are largely unchanged, only if it had a basic ST bonus of +2 or above will it lose a point. They will keep enchanting as they do now.

All impacts to metals have been listed. If it's not listed, it's not changing.

There is no change to the AC setup.

Bodak lining will retain its ST bonus vs Death. It loses the special bonus for enchanting armors (Neg Energy DR in this case).

[TacticalFerret]

Are we going to see a decrease in enchantment cost to make up for the difference in stat bumps?

What will be offered to existing level 20 characters with enchanted gear?

[Madame Trousers Son]

Honestly, considering the work and the trouble that this is going to cause people, I think I have to echo a point raised earlier.

Maybe grandfathering all this stuff is fairer.

I appreciate that it's a subjective question, and frankly I'm not a fan of grandfathering myself. But given the amount of work I'm going to have to do to get all my stuff sorted out... and I'm not even someone with a lot of adamantium or arcane steel or whatever to sort out... unmaking all the old enchanted gear sounds like the worst option.

[myrddraal]

Honestly, considering the work and the trouble that this is going to cause people, I think I have to echo a point raised earlier.

Maybe grandfathering all this stuff is fairer.

I appreciate that it's a subjective question, and frankly I'm not a fan of grandfathering myself. But given the amount of work I'm going to have to do to get all my stuff sorted out... and I'm not even someone with a lot of adamantium or arcane steel or whatever to sort out... unmaking all the old enchanted gear sounds like the worst option.

Grandfathering all this equipment also means people are less likely to ever CLOSE a character either.  Its also a just flat out advantage over all new things ever made.  It might be a headache, but honestly I think it can be worked around easily enough if people are willing to make some concessions on what their armor is.  Electrum gilding perhaps giving way to platinum for undead ac, since the acid DR is gone, etc. because honestly, who wants shifter ac once theyre high enough to enchant?  There isnt high end content that has werebeasts worth killing.

[MAB77]

Are we going to see a decrease in enchantment cost to make up for the difference in stat bumps?

What will be offered to existing level 20 characters with enchanted gear?

No, this adjustment is to correct years of power creep.

Level 20th characters should not be penalized by this change. The only difference being that should enchant any new gear before trading the old one to regain the XP.

[Madame Trousers Son]

I appreciate that point, but I think you also have to recognise that closure is pretty rare anyway.

Most people don't stop playing their characters because they closure but because they get bored and want to play another character or another game.

If it were simply a headache of getting stuff re-enchanted while only losing common materials, then fair enough, no grandfathering; but the potential loss of rare materials is what tips it past a point of gravity for me. I think it's more unfair to ask people to lose the time and effort put into acquiring those rare materials than to allow grandfathered enchanted gear to exist.

[Kaninchen]

This is saddening. I'm not exactly active at present, but some of these things were badges to illustrate time, and effort, spent to achieve. Ultimately, it is an RP server, but gear achievements certainly scratch an itch, and gives the happy chemicals. 

If this is the tradeoff, consider doing a poll of the player base to see what is preferred, crafting gear at levels prior to the introduction of tailoring, or these proposed changes with tailoring system in-tact.

It may be less heart-ache for players to remove the tailoring system. Probably an amount of people that would upset, but this sort of situation is one that has no winners. Go go gadget trolley dilemma!

[Maiyannah]

I find the decision not to refund people a thing very callous and dismissive of the time investment many players put into getting these materials and I hope this decision is reversed.

I'm going to stop myself there before I say something that ends up considered untoward.

[HM01]

As someone who has enchanted many things for many people over the years, I'll say this.

A change is good, but I would have done it differently.

Enchanted gear is completely monotone, and the enchanting craft itself needed a look - not the gear it produced. There is no scale, no sense of progression, or difference.  Most of the time, the only bottleneck you have is how many essences are at your disposal.

My level 20 tinker-gnome wizard who has enchanted countless weapons and armor for the most prolific characters the server has seen, and is the POTM equivalent of Raytheon - makes the same product as a first time enchanter at the end of the day.

Maybe you need that DC 50 enchantment skill check to get that insane stuff, not the DC 20 check. Either way, this is interesting.

[Water]

I feel like the damage this will do will be both irreversible and unfortunate to witness the aftereffect of, peoples time and effort are both being given little thought or interest. Which is saddening, quite frankly. This is not a good change and literally isn’t fixing anything because there isn’t a issue.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

Spoiler: show

As someone who has enchanted many things for many people over the years, I'll say this.

A change is good, but I would have done it differently.

Enchanted gear is completely monotone, and the enchanting craft itself needed a look - not the gear it produced. There is no scale, no sense of progression, or difference.  Most of the time, the only bottleneck you have is how many essences are at your disposal.

My level 20 tinker-gnome wizard who has enchanted countless weapons and armor for the most prolific characters the server has seen, and is the POTM equivalent of Raytheon - makes the same product as a first time enchanter at the end of the day.

Maybe you need that DC 50 enchantment skill check to get that insane stuff, not the DC 20 check. Either way, this is interesting.

I don't have much to contribute to the actual original topic of this thread without going off into tangents about other issues that I feel should be addressed in addendum to the crafting systems, but this particular point is notable enough I feel it's worthy of discussion. However, I'll refrain from doing so in this thread at risk of clogging it.

[Avela]

I find the decision not to refund people a thing very callous and dismissive of the time investment many players put into getting these materials and I hope this decision is reversed.

Honestly kind of agree.

Of course I don't think it's out of a want to see people suffer, I understand that reverse engineering the cost of the items would be a lot of work and may not even be accurate after it all, but it does seem pretty unfair for those who spent a lot of time and money gathering those materials. I'm not an avid crafter, (tried to be) so a lot of these changes go over my head. But I do understand how painful it can be to gather certain items, especially creature items or heavy, heavy ores. I totally understand how xp wouldn't feel like a proper refund.

I cannot comment on any other aspect because I literally wouldn't know what I'd be talking about, but I do know the pain of material loss, and I can only imagine what it would be like for folks with the adamantine and such that I never have even been able to touch. Maybe we can't refund the exact amount but maybe they can get some of it back?

[Forte]

imagine enchanting your armor entirely and it just gets reverted because they chose to do it to everybody

this meme was made by non-crafted armor gang

(no, seriously, what is the optics on this-- people spent levels, which is entire months to get these bonuses, only for them now to be wasted? will there be compensation? if not, reconsider. I don't even have any enchanted gear and I can read this is a terrible idea.)

[softdrink]

While some of the changes to stats on the armor themselves are nice, these changes were also completely unnecessary and will very likely only turn out to harm the players more than anything. The decision to push this change should probably be reconsidered heavily.

Many people are feeling their time and effort being thrown to the wayside for a change that didn't really need to happen in the first place.

[Forte]

I feel like the damage this will do will be both irreversible and unfortunate to witness the aftereffect of, peoples time and effort are both being given little thought or interest. Which is saddening, quite frankly. This is not a good change and literally isn’t fixing anything because there isn’t a issue.

I cannot believe I agree with Edward here but yes, this is legit the worst change I've seen in a long while, and I've been saying that for SEVERAL changes (Barovian Mist Wall is still objectively terrible, har har). Why the Hell would you keep playing if you know MAB could just go on and literally revert months of levels/time spent on your enchanted things because he wants to rebalance things without any comepensation?

No, don't do this. Rethink it. It's a very bad idea.

[Vantes-]

I will say that if there is no feasible way to reimburse materials that would be lost due to this change, the change should not go through. That would be sending a very clear message to the playerbase that their time is not valued or respected.

[softdrink]

I will say that if there is no feasible way to reimburse materials that would be lost due to this change, the change should not go through. That would be sending a very clear message to the playerbase that their time is not valued or respected.

Agreed. This change only will do more harm.

[Madame Trousers Son]

I will say that I think making small "haircut" changes like dropping a +2 save bonus to a +1 save bonus is not controversial.