Author Topic: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system  (Read 13944 times)

MAB77

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #175 on: May 15, 2023, 05:29:25 PM »
All crafts
- All crafted items that had an innate +2 or above saving throw bonus will see that saving throw bonus decreased by 1 point.

This is to address the main concern that saving throw bonuses on crafted items made some of the server content increasingly trivial as one gains in level. The inclusion of new material, and that of crafted hoods and cloaks particularly, kept pushing the boundaries of saving throw levels further over the years. This change scales back the maximum amount of saving throw bonuses to levels closer to what they were prior to the tailoring overhaul.

Can you see where one might read this as "we broke things with our previous crafting overhaul, and so now we have to make another major overhaul to compensate"? That is, what was the goal of the tailoring overhaul? Why add another layer of changes, rather than back out the changes that broke stuff?

Note: These are rhetorical questions, pointing to principles of strategic planning and design, rather suggesting you actually back out the tailoring. But an iterative process such as you describe above does not lend itself to user confidence that the new changes are more than trial and error--with players bearing the cost.

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Enchanting
- Armors and clothings to have the universal and other saving throws reduced to +1 instead of +2.
- Ranged/thrown weapons enchantment bonus reduced to +2 instead of +3.
- The extra bonus that only applied upon enchanting armors and tailored clothes is entirely eliminated.

The change to saving throws on enchanting is in line with the point presented above. Most were already capped at +1, it really only impacts armors/clothings here.

When enchanting was introduced, its purposes were: 1) to give 20th levels something more to go for and a way of extending character power arc without raising the level cap; 2) to improve the balance between mundanes and casters. I'll say more about 20th levels in a bit, but does this change indicate that Devs now feel parity has been achieved so that mundanes need nerfing, relative to casters?

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The changes to ranged/thrown weapon has them match the bonus increase on enchanted melee weapons. It was left at +3 in the past because of balance issues, but we have since added a number of ranged weapon related feats to improve ranged weapon built and bridge the gap.

I have already expressed my opinion of this particular (archer builds hardly need nerfing).

So to go back to the ostensible reason for all this complicated change, I'd suggest a couple of alternatives that would be much easier for Devs and cause much less player heartburn:

1) If enchanting is too good, raise the XP cost. This would mean grandfathered items could be left alone and no massive reimbursement system would be necessary. The only programming change would be a few variables, rather than rework (and the likely bugs it will introduce).

2) Reimbursing players is not really a solution but making the best of a (self-inflicted) bad situation. The players invested *time* in these endeavors and did so with a specific goal. Imagine someone who wins an Olympic medal, and the committee offers to give the athlete back the cost of their training in exchange for the medal. Such an offer indicates a misunderstanding of what the medal represents.

This, finally, is why I am bothering to post about this, as none of my current PCs has any enchanted gear. I am, consequently, not writing at all out of self-interest in this debate. Yet I have had enchanted gear in the past, so what follows I can speak of from experience.

These changes devalue one of the most valuable prizes of playing the game. In terms of RP, players like to think their enchanted gear is unique to them and imbued with their PC's essence. Should it be a nonesuch? Yes. It's the prize at the end of the rainbow and has to be something worth losing a level over.

Unfortunately, the situation seems to be that Devs think they have given players too nice of things and need to take them back. In my opinion the better way to attack this problem is one that comes up again and again: getting high levels to closure.

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crafted items made some of the server content increasingly trivial as one gains in level

As it should be. And when *all* content becomes trivial, the player should be bored with the PC and want to closure. Incentivizing that is a hard problem, but a better use of brainpower and creativity than tweaking and retweaking crafting components in hopes of achieving elusive balance.

The latter is a lot of hard work for little reward and much player disapprobation.

Except for electrum gilding, which I do consider a mistake of my own (along the staff of scientific wizardry), I would not go as far as telling it's all trial and error. For the most part we usually have a fairly good idea of where it is heading. That said, there will always be a part of unknown whenever we make additions. We knew the tailoring overhaul would introduce a powercreep, and it is probably right to say this should have come sooner. But it was inevitable down the road. Tweaking game parameters over time is normal. We've done it for nearly 2 decades now. You might feel players are bearing the cost this time, but by far and wide changes are usually beneficial to players in general. Obviously though, it is the corrections like this one that are remembered though.

Point 2 way more than point 1 is the reason for the crafting system. But don't forget too that initially the server was exceedingly harder. Master crafters where nearly inexistant, for a very long time even basic steel armors were rare and would be sold for 10000 gp or more, and that was a lot of gold. Times have changed a lot, the reality of those early years is quite different than now. Point 1 just plainly no longer applies. Also, if anything, arcane casters are impacted the most by this change. Clothings are taking a greater hit than armors.

+5 bows are busted. It's problematic on many levels, especially in combination with blessed antlers on a server where most PvE foes are evil. And as stated we introduced several feats to raise the efficiency of archer builts. To make use or not of those is a player's prerogative but the options are their to build effective ones even with that change.

On alternative proposal number 1. It's really not a sustainable solution. The problem with gold, time or XP sinks is that it only invites players to grind further. XP can always be regained so all this would do is make things longer (and possibly more boring) to acquire that "best piece of equipment" most will go for anyway. We are veering away from these mechanics.

Reimbursing players is indeed a last resort, but justified in the circumstances. Remember though it is not every items that will need to be reimbursed. We will adjust the change as best as possible to limit the need for it.

We clearly do not see eye to eye regarding the value of items. They are adjusted slightly with the intent to make the game more balanced and possibly more challenging (though it will never be as challenging as it was the first few years). Yes, some of the changes are significant, but none of them are rendered powerless.

Unfortunately, the situation seems to be that Devs think they have given players too nice of things and need to take them back. In my opinion the better way to attack this problem is one that comes up again and again: getting high levels to closure.
And yet your own proposals would invite just the opposite. Grandfathering items, greater XP cost to enchant, these are the sort of things that make players hold on their chars.
Ultimately focus should be on RP, not items. To be satisfactory, closing must come form one's own term. It is, and should always be, a very personal decision.
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MAB

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JustMonika

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #176 on: May 15, 2023, 05:29:37 PM »
There should be in the OOC a container where you can put your enchanted gear, and for a limited time it gives you back the experience (not affected by XP CAP) and the materials used in it.

This is what the development team have said they would like to do.

However, as they've explained this is no easy implimentation or fix with the systems they have to work with. It may be doable, and if it is they will, but it may simply be too technically complicated/not at all possible.

apeppertoo

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #177 on: May 15, 2023, 05:41:52 PM »
Arcane casters can already invest in Mestil's Acid Shield. Part of the strategy to bridge the gap between mundanes and casters is also that they ought to use their powers to protect themselves.

My bad, had another elemental shield spell in mind. Meant energy buffer.

So beguilers and warmages can sit and spin, I guess, while Sorcerers are obliged to use one of their four fifth circle spells known to protect against the elements because we can't have their equipment being useful. That'd be too much. This is balanced because wizards, and only wizards, can learn and do anything.

Safe to say that I do not buy into this design philosophy.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #178 on: May 15, 2023, 05:53:42 PM »
How are rare loot drop components any different than any other rare loot drop items? If there is something valuable to be gained in grinding a dungeon, whatever the form, it will be grinded. It has nothing to do with crafting in itself.

It's not particularly hard or long anymore to be able to produce ancient dire animal patches. But it is also normal that a new PC won't able to do so. It is late game content after all.

White stag sells for good coin at Petre. Lower levels will be thankful you leave those to them. Not everything has to be of use to high level players, we cater to the small guys too.

Ooze City IS a death trap no question there. It's also an excellent training ground for quick XP. A proven tactic is to go there in group make a line near one of the entrance and fend the coming waves until you have to retreat.

If I might ask how long ago was this kind of grinding being done

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #179 on: May 15, 2023, 06:07:21 PM »
[Looks at his level 19 druid due to aboleth and ooze city]

Extended wall of fire in a triangle shape with storm of vengeance overhead. A lot of ooze types split with being hit with electrical damage, and the ones that didnt were split manually with fists. The more you split, the more their attacks are delayed, until you have a carpet bomb of multiplied high CR XP ooze stretching to your render distance waddling into your AoEs with too little HP to split more and survive the AoE damage.

Nularia

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #180 on: May 15, 2023, 06:20:07 PM »
I don't understand why it's a bad thing to have items that are powerful against Evil Alignments, or strong against undead.

Yeah.. that's the point? The evil side gets plenty of ridiculous advantages and things slanted to their side ALL the time. But if a good character gets something that's strong against an evil person?" Oh no, that's busted we have to nerf it, you shouldn't be allowed to get that powerful!

Like.. that's what makes these items desirable is it not? After facing down mountains of depths where the odds are always AGAINST you, is it not reasonable to want to get your hands on something that makes it for once feel like the odds might be somewhat leveled? Even if situationally?

All I can say is I'm glad I never got into Crafted Gear or enchanting.

Probably best to stay faaar away from it until the dust settles eventually from what I've gathered.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 06:23:47 PM by Nularia »

Maladas

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #181 on: May 15, 2023, 08:02:30 PM »
I'd like to throw in my two cents for just a moment.  I play a caster and most of my item choices do not stem from enchanted gear.  To be fair I don't have any.  Not to sound like a broken record but from playing to max level over several years I have seen mulitple nerfs (call it rebalancing) to casters in general.  To be specific as was pointed out not too long ago changing certain spells to reflect force damage, which was hailed as improving the spell overall.  In looking at the new crafting it seems they are adding force damage reduction to items, further nerfing those spells.  While the argument is made that there is no save involved in those spells which is why they need rebalancing is fair.  All other damage dealing spells have a save involved.  Most enchanted gear now brings saves to rediculous levels.  On average as a 20th level caster I literally can't throw a spell that isn't saved against unless it's against a significantly lower level PC or the PC in questions rolls a natural 1 on it's save..  It has essentially regulated casters from doing damage to a warding only role.  The argument has come up about feats that improve saves etc.  Yes, that is an argument if you are min - maxing your character I am not one of those players.  It makes a significant difference in the bonus to saves that everyone runs around with.  You want to rebalance enchanted items, i'm good with that, but don't further diminish a class's bread and butter further.

MAB77

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #182 on: May 15, 2023, 09:56:06 PM »
I'd like to throw in my two cents for just a moment.  I play a caster and most of my item choices do not stem from enchanted gear.  To be fair I don't have any.  Not to sound like a broken record but from playing to max level over several years I have seen mulitple nerfs (call it rebalancing) to casters in general.  To be specific as was pointed out not too long ago changing certain spells to reflect force damage, which was hailed as improving the spell overall.  In looking at the new crafting it seems they are adding force damage reduction to items, further nerfing those spells.  While the argument is made that there is no save involved in those spells which is why they need rebalancing is fair.  All other damage dealing spells have a save involved.  Most enchanted gear now brings saves to rediculous levels.  On average as a 20th level caster I literally can't throw a spell that isn't saved against unless it's against a significantly lower level PC or the PC in questions rolls a natural 1 on it's save..  It has essentially regulated casters from doing damage to a warding only role.  The argument has come up about feats that improve saves etc.  Yes, that is an argument if you are min - maxing your character I am not one of those players.  It makes a significant difference in the bonus to saves that everyone runs around with.  You want to rebalance enchanted items, i'm good with that, but don't further diminish a class's bread and butter further.

The vast majority of the PvE creatures do not cast force damage spells. Unless you tell me you engage in PvP fights daily (which I strongly doubt) you are unlikely to ever be seriously impacted the presence of astral driftmetal. It will also be a rare loot drop and most will not eve wear armors made of it unless one knows for a certainty he/she'll be attacked by a caster with force damage spells. The chances of that are very slim. And it's not like the item will be DR 10/- either. 2/- on armors, 1/- on the rest. You'd still deal damage. Also there will still have less items providing force protection than the already existing magical protection. A lot of things are nerfed with this change, but force damage spells are not.

Also if you read the initial post you would have seen ST on crafted items are being decreased across the board. That will help casters in PvP.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 09:57:45 PM by MAB77 »
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PrimetheGrime

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #183 on: May 15, 2023, 10:53:31 PM »
I don't understand why it's a bad thing to have items that are powerful against Evil Alignments, or strong against undead.

Yeah.. that's the point? The evil side gets plenty of ridiculous advantages and things slanted to their side ALL the time. But if a good character gets something that's strong against an evil person?" Oh no, that's busted we have to nerf it, you shouldn't be allowed to get that powerful!

Like.. that's what makes these items desirable is it not? After facing down mountains of depths where the odds are always AGAINST you, is it not reasonable to want to get your hands on something that makes it for once feel like the odds might be somewhat leveled? Even if situationally?

All I can say is I'm glad I never got into Crafted Gear or enchanting.

Probably best to stay faaar away from it until the dust settles eventually from what I've gathered.

I can't say I've ever come across a crafted item that had advantage vs evil alignment. Normally speaking you're better off finding a loot drop for that kind of capability and there are plenty of them in the server

Avela

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #184 on: May 15, 2023, 11:46:53 PM »
Unfortunately, the situation seems to be that Devs think they have given players too nice of things and need to take them back. In my opinion the better way to attack this problem is one that comes up again and again: getting high levels to closure.
And yet your own proposals would invite just the opposite. Grandfathering items, greater XP cost to enchant, these are the sort of things that make players hold on their chars.
Ultimately focus should be on RP, not items. To be satisfactory, closing must come form one's own term. It is, and should always be, a very personal decision.

While not directly related to the overall topic, I agree. Please do not push players to close their characters. In my mind there's very few problems to be solved by pressuring people to cut off stories they are enjoying telling.

I understand not agreeing with the nerf, I don't feel like that's a better option.
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Nularia

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #185 on: May 15, 2023, 11:58:36 PM »

I can't say I've ever come across a crafted item that had advantage vs evil alignment. Normally speaking you're better off finding a loot drop for that kind of capability and there are plenty of them in the server

Then why's MAB complaining that a +5 Bow alongside Blessed Antlers being too strong (Especially since most of the server is evil)? Bows a Crafted Bow I would imagine yes?

Certainly seems like they are implying that it's a Crafted item that is specifically good against Evil stuff in general.

Kireek

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #186 on: May 16, 2023, 12:00:14 AM »
Have we considered nerfing the spell premonition?

It's just way too good, and lets Wizards run around doing whatever they want. It's clearly one of the best in spell slot spells to take, and because it is basically an autopick, it needs to be nerfed.

I'm thinking we should change it to +2 AC versus shapeshifters. Now I know what your thinking, how is this at all relevant to the original implementation of the spell? Well its uh.. defensive or something.

I'm also starting to think of a new change right now,

Crafted Exotic one handed weapons are too strong, so we should just turn them all into greatswords. Not nerf the actual crafted weapons, just change them into greatswords. Fundamentally change all of the weapons by their very nature, instead of actually tinkering with the stats. Now I know, some people may have made huge character and skill investments based on the fact that bastards swords exist and will do the thing they were advertised to do, but I just don't think the power level is appropriate for the server. So let's make everyone use great swords, and if they enchanted a bastard sword, its now an enchanted greatsword, and even if they don't want to use an enchanted greatsword, tough. They are stuck with an inferior item for them.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 12:14:30 AM by Kireek »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #187 on: May 16, 2023, 12:23:47 AM »
I made eyebrows at it. Pretty serious nerf.

I would say in the future, consider buffing things that support setting appropriate fighting styles. Just as an example, silver being bad has nothing to do with electrum. If it's supposed to be the ultimate bane material to shapechangers, then make it so. Nerfing electrum making silver more attractive only relatively speaking does nothing for silver in the long run.

Build choices of +1s and +2s here and there is not all that interesting, nor does it make a difference at the end of the day. The silver lining I see is that, by effectively removing all enchanted armor from the game as you just did, you tore down one of the main pillars to lowering the level cap! :mrgreen:

Or, you've inspired people to grind more so they can enchant more stuff to get the same protections they had before, with each piece of equipment being less important and noteworthy.

I would propose a reversal of the change and a limitation on the number of enchanted items that may be equipped (to no more than 2 or 3), potentially even locking them in per-rest so people can't play their quick-swap games. You'd inspire more roleplay by enforcing this type of application of favored signature equipment. I personally thought gothic fiction really melded with that idea of the hero coming across a really powerful piece of equipment that defines the way they take on their enemies. Whereas in theme park MMOs you worry about a dozen slots of gear and the marginal little bonuses they add up to...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 12:26:40 AM by SardineTheAncestor »
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noah25

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #188 on: May 16, 2023, 01:21:50 AM »
The big issue with the bows being +5. as it has always been, is it immediately allows you to pierce premonition. +5 vs undead is OP but was at least limited in scope, when you open up something like an entire alignment, thats a death sentence for an evil wizard/sorceror,druid etc. Breaking greater stoneskin feels significantly more appropriate and has more actual PVE functions.

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #189 on: May 16, 2023, 02:19:22 AM »

I can't say I've ever come across a crafted item that had advantage vs evil alignment. Normally speaking you're better off finding a loot drop for that kind of capability and there are plenty of them in the server

Then why's MAB complaining that a +5 Bow alongside Blessed Antlers being too strong (Especially since most of the server is evil)? Bows a Crafted Bow I would imagine yes?

Certainly seems like they are implying that it's a Crafted item that is specifically good against Evil stuff in general.

Oh yes I forgot about blessed antlers. To be fair, it's a very rare drop and I believe the only material that does do that. It's fairly strong also. I don't know of any vs alignment weapons that go beyond +3

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #190 on: May 16, 2023, 02:22:36 AM »
Have we considered nerfing the spell premonition?

It's just way too good, and lets Wizards run around doing whatever they want. It's clearly one of the best in spell slot spells to take, and because it is basically an autopick, it needs to be nerfed.

I'm thinking we should change it to +2 AC versus shapeshifters. Now I know what your thinking, how is this at all relevant to the original implementation of the spell? Well its uh.. defensive or something.

I'm also starting to think of a new change right now,

Crafted Exotic one handed weapons are too strong, so we should just turn them all into greatswords. Not nerf the actual crafted weapons, just change them into greatswords. Fundamentally change all of the weapons by their very nature, instead of actually tinkering with the stats. Now I know, some people may have made huge character and skill investments based on the fact that bastards swords exist and will do the thing they were advertised to do, but I just don't think the power level is appropriate for the server. So let's make everyone use great swords, and if they enchanted a bastard sword, its now an enchanted greatsword, and even if they don't want to use an enchanted greatsword, tough. They are stuck with an inferior item for them.

Please keep your sarcasm for the tavern where it belongs and only post constructive ideas/feedback. Cheers.

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #191 on: May 16, 2023, 09:15:22 AM »
Regarding bows:I can understand the change in the enhancement to no breach premonition easily, ok. I dislike but I see the reason.

The problem is that it hurts also the attack roll, making non primary bab pcs even worse.

Since we added a new feat that ta kles the damage, would it be possible, anyway, to allow ranged characters with enough feat investment to pick superior weapon focus?
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #192 on: May 16, 2023, 12:14:12 PM »
Has any consideration been given to how this change will effect the economy in the post aftermath of this considered update? If there is no way to refund the materials from a craft, the demand for those ingots/rare materials is going to be crazy high. If you thought adamantine was expensive... just wait.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #193 on: May 16, 2023, 12:21:24 PM »
At least we'll see crafters again.
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cooachlyfe

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #194 on: May 16, 2023, 12:40:28 PM »
Has any consideration been given to how this change will effect the economy in the post aftermath of this considered update? If there is no way to refund the materials from a craft, the demand for those ingots/rare materials is going to be crazy high. If you thought adamantine was expensive... just wait.

Better start grinding now    :lol:

Branchie

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #195 on: May 16, 2023, 12:47:23 PM »
Honestly not too harsh of a change, glad it's being looked into regrding refunding for materials.

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #196 on: May 16, 2023, 01:05:04 PM »
Personally, it was a redundant change and it seemed unnecessary to me.
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Kireek

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #197 on: May 16, 2023, 01:16:12 PM »
Fine, I'll be constructive, heres your design doc. It's doable.


So if we assume you have a function that does the following-

Checks for Enchantment
Checks for item type to determine value table for how much enchantments cost
Checks for the existence of a value/item type to determine if an item is gilded/lined/plated to  clarify which exact cost is being used- after all you have to figure out if it is redsteel..


Then you need to create at most probably 2 new sets.

Set 1 is a colloquial name table- this table will assign colloquial names to variables- E.g.
"Adamantium" = AD or 01 or whatever (You may also want in this dataset to assign the item # for the raw material form here as well as a sub-flag/ID thingymabob, if that is not included in the crafting attributes themselves)
Arcane Steel = AS or 02
Bodak Hide= BH or 871...
"Electrum-Gilded, "Electrum Gilded", "Gilded with Electrum" = EL or E018257825825827
flag is gilded= (More on this later)
Copper, Copper-gilded (CP or e82472487247828472)
Flag as gilded= Yes
This will direct your program now to have a specific reference point for item qualities that should be hopefully listed out in the crafting ID table itself. I am going to assume that each individual item has 'innate' qualities- we are not concerned with the specifics of WHAT those qualities are numerically here, only that they exist in some form on the item. We don't care if there is a cold save of +1 or +7000, just that there is a cold save for our purposes.



The reason you would make this dataset is it should sniff for an items main material component- if it can find this main material component, then it references the dataset, and then call directly on the variable in question. If it cannot find a main material component because the name is custom- do not pass go, spit out an error to the player stating that items with customized names cannot be disenchanted.

So- for example A Fever Iron Breastplate lined with Bodak hide....
and somewhere in the description is the word electrum. or is it electrum-gilded?

You just need to have the program sniff for exact sequences of words- case sensitivity doesn't matter, but spelling does obviously. The order of the materials is always the same too, so Steel always comes first in an items name, then the hide, then the gild. If there is a hideless armor, and it just says gild, then we will need to create an exception for this for armors, but the way you would do this is going to be a bit convoluted and covered in data set 2.

IF you are worried about shenanigans, that a DM somehow let a player make an adamantium sword when it was named steel- which is super cheesy, then you can check for qualities here as well in the description. If this is an arcane steel weapon- does it do magic damage? If this is arcane steel equipment- does it save against spells? If this is a white dragon helmet, does it save against cold?

The last part is only necessary if you are concerned that DMs are allowing some shenanigans to roll around. Frankly, I assume most customized items are flagged- like renamed/redesced- so I'd just exclude those entirely.

Set 2 will be more concerned with assigning material costs for all items- you may actually be able to just have it sniff these specifics out already using the call function that is likely already implemented, if not, you may just need to assign specific expected variable payouts based on the armor type. Regardless, you can also make the set-
Full Plate=8, 2, 1
Half plate=7, 2, 1
Studded leather =4, 2
Boots = 1, 1
Staffs, 2, 1 (I think)?
etc.

We will assume all items have 3 variables- with expected payouts, but only require number 1 be properly filled, variables 2 and 3 are optional and can be assigned a null label which will set their payouts to 0, or can be overridden based on a specific flag.

Your function should already be checking for the exact type of xp value, it may be doing that easily if that variable is stored in the armor, but it may also be calling on a table and doing a cross reference- I don't have access to your code.  IF it does the latter, you should be able to differentiate these things without writing a new function from scratch and then create exception cases basically assigning slightly different values allowed for the payout. If you stored the xp locally on the item, then you'll need to create all of the above by scratch.

Either way, there are now three different values that need to be clarified, but how would you clarify these things- This is why dataset 1 was created- Data set one is concerned with colloquial names as they exist on equipment.. so we'll be able to call them once dataset 2 is pulled.

We use datasets 1 ID's, assign them to data set 2's variables, giving further clarification of what the armor is now made up of. For the hide/gild situation, you assign any gilding metals a maximum value that it can ever output as 1- but only in slot 2 or 3. This will override the items payout. This will account for Arandur and Copper. This will only create some messiness on an wood/arandur staff. Or wood/copper staff. The former of which I'd do a quick check to see if anyone ever bothered to make one of. If my understanding of how Arandur works is correct that is. (I assume it is a base and gild metal like copper)

This is why the flag exists in the calling/assignment dataset 1- when assigning material costs to the item will then call upon the variables its sniffed out- and check for if an item it is calling is a gilded type- if the metal type is flagged as gild only, then it overrides the variable it assigned to as 1. . So if we have a full plate with gilded only, the program will read it as 8/1/0. Not 8/0/1, if we have a copper plate gilded with arandur, it'll read as 8/X/1 or 8/1/0, because the gilding can only ever override payout values in the 2nd or 3rd slot.



We mix 1 and 2 and we should end up with this was made of 8 bars of X, 2 patches of y, and 1 bar of z. You'll have the program then call/assign raw material type form which should be hopefully assigned if not in the base crafting database, then you will need to add them as details to dataset 1. If neither of those work, thats another set that will need to be created.


Bam, pay it out. IF there is ever a failstate, spit out an error and do not payout period.

So to clarify,

You get an item.
It calls on dataset 2 to get the expected maximum material value make up of the item- these are your prelim payouts, it can only go down from here.
It scans the name/desc of the item to grab the material names- assigning them in the order they appear.
During this scan, if one of the material types is flagged as gilding only, override variable for assigned payout to 1.
IF no value is set to a given call- e.g. value 2 or 3 is not given a material type or outputs as null- set that variable to 0.
Call Xp
Payout.




If done as expected, every item will end up with a virtual table that you can have it print out during testing that should look something like-

This item is a <Item type> -
It is made up of-
X of <Material type 1>
Y of <Material Type 2>
Z of <Material Type 3>




 I've written the basic design doc. It's definitely doable. If you can't get it working with a blueprint, because it's either not possible in the unique ravenloft coding language, or too labor intensive then I'd suggest backing out of the planned course of action. This has a rather significant impact on a lot of people, myself included (obviously), so if ya'll arn't willing to back this up with some concrete action here to make things fair.. then you shouldn't be going down this path. Because if you won't be able to fix it, it IS going to go onto the DMs,  because guess who I'll be asking every day to replace my gear with?

Kireek

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #198 on: May 16, 2023, 01:51:03 PM »
On container close-
Is there something inside of me? If yes, continue.
Is there only one item? If yes, continue
Is that item enchanted? If yes, continue
Is it flagged as customized? If no- continue
What kind of item is it? Call on table 2-
   Assign values to floating item payout variable slots 1, 2 & 3.

What does the item name and description say it is made out of?
   Assign item types to values in order of apperance
      Is the primary item type flagged as wood? skip the next step and set slot 3 to 0.
      Is one of the types a gilding metal in the 2nd or 3rd slot? Set that slot to 1.
        Are there any undefined slots?
          If Slot one is undefined, stop, output error.
          If slot 2 or 3 is undefined, set to 0.
          If a slot is defined but is set to 0, spit out an error and stop.
   
Standard XP calculations.

If you want to be extra safe, include the following;

Is the number of items I am about to pay out within the bounds of acceptable payouts for the slots?
   Is value 1  <=8
   Is Value 2 <=3
   Is Value 3 <=1
   If any of the above is false, stop and spit out error.

Is the value slot 1 flagged as gilding and is not copper or arandur?
   If yes, stop and spit out error.

Is the item type of slot 2 & 3 a gilded metal?
   If yes, stop and spit out error.

Pay out.
Clear payout variables.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 02:00:33 PM by Kireek »

Kamfrenchie

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #199 on: May 16, 2023, 01:51:52 PM »
I have a more general misgiving about the nerfs to most items. I unerstand that one could become very powerful by planning a build with armor in mind from the getgo, but am i the only one who didn't have an optimized build ? Because having strong enchanted items makes my meh build much more manageable, and renders me not useless in dm events or fights.
This is a reason why you are unlikely to see builds deviate from the norm. Apparently it's so rare for a ranger to not have a low charisma that my own one having a score of 12 surprised someone else. But all in all, i would have been better off just putting it at 8.

I am using bodak lining, and while the DR is very nice and the reason i chose it, i'm a bit puzzled as to how it's overpowered ? By the time you can enchant, you are facing enemies that will iirc do may wore than 10 damages with dark energy, not to mention other nasty things they throw at you. A 10 negative energy DR will for sure lessen some blows, but doesn't end it, and the physical damage remains high for many enemies.

I'll admit it makes fighting shadows in the sullen woods a cakewalk, but that's already the case without one.