Author Topic: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system  (Read 16379 times)

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #150 on: May 15, 2023, 01:49:38 PM »
Hello!
Did I get it correctly? Enchanted crafted equipment will be, as a consequence, disenchanted and you will have to re-envhant? Or will the stats just be overridden?

I am asking because if the characters are given back xp from DMs, they will immediately jump to blind drive given the sheer amount of XP being handed out. This would need to be handled outside the canonical xp system or any single enchanted item will red cap those looking for a refund.

When this change is applied (sometime after the dust from the hak update has settled), all crafted items people have will be reconstructed using the current properties. People will then have the choice to keep the item as is or destroy it by putting it in a container to gain the XP lost when enchanting. We are looking at a way to automate refunding ingredients, since as I mentioned, the workload imposed to the DM team by doing it manually is not reasonable. There are no guarantees that this will happen though as there are restrictions with the system.

Wilkins1952

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2023, 01:51:32 PM »
Would the better fix then not be a Decrease in the AC that white stag gives and replacing it's other properties with an AC Vs. Undead. This makes White stag still unique and fit a niche role in the crafting table without having to create yet a new item. Because with this change there is zero difference between regular Deer and White Stag. Which at that point why have it in the game as a drop and a potential lining

Platinum gilding already takes care of much of the need for AC vs undead on metal armors. It's not needed for padded/leather/studded leathers as those naturally get to +4 AC once enchanted. It would be possible to have the +2 AC vs undead apply only to chitin/scale armors. White stag leather would remain relevant even if just used as a practice component.

While platinum does give some undead AC, With the current method we have options and more potential to build armors that were unique and situational as well as stack more stuff onto individual items. It seems with this update the only linings that will be worth going for are the late game ones. Aboleth/Gargoyle/Troll. With no potential to have unique and interesting ones. As for the excuse that it is a crafting practice material. It's virtually impossible to viably grind enough white stag for that to make a difference. So Again I ask if this change is going to be made why not simply remove white stag to help with inventory clutter, Unless it is going to be given some unique properties to make it worth keeping in.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2023, 02:03:26 PM »
I agree with Wilkins1952's assessment here.  This seems to be doing a lot to hollow out the middle ground and make only high end crafted gear at all desirable.  This will have a variety of knock on effects, the most obvious I think will be a diminishing amount of crafters, since there will be considerably less point in crafting unless you are intending to go and max it.

Most importantly for me personally, the increased amount of time investment this will cause crafting to represent will absolutely draw time away from roleplay and into the mechanical aspects of the game which are supposed to serve as a vehicle to - not opposition of - roleplay.  And let me tell you, as someone that has Muse, there is only so much small talk you can do while someone makes 50 pairs of the same boots.  Silvia knows exactly the scene Im referring to :P
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2023, 02:04:23 PM »
Just a note, but for the refunding, you can probably focus it solely on the rare materials. Adamantium, Arcane Steel and other rare metal drops, etc.

People probably don't care about the minutiae of common crafting materials, e.g. wool, silk, whatever. That stuff can probably just be re-obtained just as easily.
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MAB77

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2023, 02:15:31 PM »
While platinum does give some undead AC, With the current method we have options and more potential to build armors that were unique and situational as well as stack more stuff onto individual items. It seems with this update the only linings that will be worth going for are the late game ones. Aboleth/Gargoyle/Troll. With no potential to have unique and interesting ones. As for the excuse that it is a crafting practice material. It's virtually impossible to viably grind enough white stag for that to make a difference. So Again I ask if this change is going to be made why not simply remove white stag to help with inventory clutter, Unless it is going to be given some unique properties to make it worth keeping in.

We will have to simply disagree on this. White stag stacking with platinum is one of the oversight we seek to correct. We're not going for anything higher then AC +4 vs undead once enchanted. Undead are exceedingly common and that makes such armor too powerful for game balance. This could be revised if the item allowing to rise above +4 is a rare loot drop item, like orichalcum, but this is definitively not in the cards at this time. My concern is only to bring the standard +2 (mundane)/+4 (enchanted) AC option to chitin and scale armors.

I disagree with your assessment on what constitutes a worthy late game lining, ancient dire animal linings certainly remain good and popular options. They are frequently used for enchanting. I suspect the newer Bolt of Shadow Silk will be popular too (though it may be simple to stay with Bodak for Neg Energy DR to reduce the amount of required refunds), and occasionally, a darksteel/gargoyle armor to go play in ooze city.

If you feel white stag hides are an inventory clutter issue, why pick them in the first place? It's not like you have an obligation to pick up everything. They remain very much relevant to apprentices and that in itself is a worthy reason to keep them.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2023, 02:18:09 PM »
If you feel white stag hides are an inventory clutter issue, why pick them in the first place? It's not like you have an obligation to pick up everything. They remain very much relevant to apprentices and that in itself is a worthy reason to keep them.

Why are we making players construct "vendor trash" in large amounts to level a crafting skill?
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2023, 02:30:52 PM »
Just a note, but for the refunding, you can probably focus it solely on the rare materials. Adamantium, Arcane Steel and other rare metal drops, etc.

People probably don't care about the minutiae of common crafting materials, e.g. wool, silk, whatever. That stuff can probably just be re-obtained just as easily.

The thought came to me yes, but in the end if we can make it work to refund the rare components, it will work to refund all components. We'll revise options if we can't make it work.

If you feel white stag hides are an inventory clutter issue, why pick them in the first place? It's not like you have an obligation to pick up everything. They remain very much relevant to apprentices and that in itself is a worthy reason to keep them.

Why are we making players construct "vendor trash" in large amounts to level a crafting skill?

Entirely irrelevant to this thread, but short story is, that is the formula the player base selected. We offered to change the system for a significant increase of CXP in exchange of a soft cap. This would have significantly decreased the amount of components you'd need for levelling in crafts, slowing down progression only through time instead of grinding. This was rejected twice in favor of retaining the ability to powercraft. So instead, we decreased the DCs and the maximum crafting levels to help reduce the grinding.
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Wilkins1952

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2023, 02:34:32 PM »

We will have to simply disagree on this. White stag stacking with platinum is one of the oversight we seek to correct. We're not going for anything higher then AC +4 vs undead once enchanted. Undead are exceedingly common and that makes such armor too powerful for game balance. This could be revised if the item allowing to rise above +4 is a rare loot drop item, like orichalcum, but this is definitively not in the cards at this time. My concern is only to bring the standard +2 (mundane)/+4 (enchanted) AC option to chitin and scale armors.

I disagree with your assessment on what constitutes a worthy late game lining, ancient dire animal linings certainly remain good and popular options. They are frequently used for enchanting. I suspect the newer Bolt of Shadow Silk will be popular too (though it may be simple to stay with Bodak for Neg Energy DR to reduce the amount of required refunds), and occasionally, a darksteel/gargoyle armor to go play in ooze city.

If you feel white stag hides are an inventory clutter issue, why pick them in the first place? It's not like you have an obligation to pick up everything. They remain very much relevant to apprentices and that in itself is a worthy reason to keep them.

Rare Drop items are an issue in and of themselves, They reward grinding rather than skill. These materials should be at the end of a hard dungeon and always spawn even if it is just 1 ingot, Not something that requires you to roll the loot table drops 1000s of times to even get a chance, That just promotes Mistcamp MMO Style gameplay. But everyone still deserves to see the high end and powerful items. The challenge should not be one of time but rather one of skill and getting the right party and friends to tackle this challenge.

As for the end game lining, Ancient Dire Hide requires you to go a long way into both Leatherworking and Smithing to be able to make it. That is a lot of time invested into leveling crafting, Something that a new PC won't be able to do, However White stag/Steel is quiet easy to make and is very useful early on. While still being better to replace later. Shadow silk requires heavy investment into tailoring which means now as it stands Smiths will need to level Alchemy, Leatherworking, Hide Curing, Gilding, AND Tailoring to be able to make the good quality gear.

As for Vendor trash white stag hides, You are right, Going forwards I won't pick them up if they don't have a use and become vendor trash because it's not worth the inventory clutter, As they stand now with the unique properties then yes they are worth picking up. Because they are useful. And I very much hope they stay that way. As for apprentices, There are better things to work on in the early game, Wolf cave and wolf hides being far more efficient to gather and more reliable.

To comment on the 'Play in Ooze city' Even fully enchanted people avoid that place because with the changes made to it. It's a death trap. Plain and simple there is no reason to risk a PCs corpsing there and being lost for a considerable amount of time. Even with the changes no one is going to go visit that place. asides from someone with UMD and Jaunt using it as a corpse hiding spot.

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2023, 02:46:13 PM »
How are rare loot drop components any different than any other rare loot drop items? If there is something valuable to be gained in grinding a dungeon, whatever the form, it will be grinded. It has nothing to do with crafting in itself.

It's not particularly hard or long anymore to be able to produce ancient dire animal patches. But it is also normal that a new PC won't able to do so. It is late game content after all.

White stag sells for good coin at Petre. Lower levels will be thankful you leave those to them. Not everything has to be of use to high level players, we cater to the small guys too.

Ooze City IS a death trap no question there. It's also an excellent training ground for quick XP. A proven tactic is to go there in group make a line near one of the entrance and fend the coming waves until you have to retreat.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2023, 03:01:51 PM »
How are rare loot drop components any different than any other rare loot drop items? If there is something valuable to be gained in grinding a dungeon, whatever the form, it will be grinded. It has nothing to do with crafting in itself.

The answer to that is that enchanted crafting is an investment of XP.

If I find a rare loot drop, awesome. It upgrades me and it requires zero investment beyond the sunk cost of time I've spent getting loot.

Conversely, I can't really plan to make Arcane Steel bracers (at least not reliably; Arcane Steel is that rare and that valuable). So if I want to plan how I'm going to invest into my enchanted crafted gear, the rarity of rare component loot is a huge question mark.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 03:05:13 PM by Madame Trousers Son »
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2023, 03:07:49 PM »
I would agree with having white stag+platinum enchant to+5 vs undead at least. Make white stag just give +1vs undead when non enchanted so stag+platinum unenchanted is +3 vs undead. Could also have enchanted electrum still give 5acid DR and change gargoyle to be more thematic.

Gargoyle can be piercing AC like other high tier linings, heavy too, and saves vs. petrification. Enchanted makes immune to petrification. Really plays well with the gargoyle theme.

immunity to petrification, while niche, would be immensely powerful.  More so in PVP than it would be in PVE.  Few creatures will turn you to stone, but druids likely will any time you go to fight them.  As much as I love the thematic emphasis on gargoyle hide, that would be too powerful.

Being very powerful against one specific circumstance for the price of enchanting a full armor I think is a fine trade. It's seems very unlikely that the moment someone starts conflict with a druid that they will go pull our their stored 2nd set of enchanted armor for petrification immunity saved for this exact situation, slap it on, then go running out at the druid. And if they do that then power to them. Druids are dangerous regardless of that spell for a multitude of other reasons right?

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2023, 03:09:03 PM »

Ooze City IS a death trap no question there. It's also an excellent training ground for quick XP. A proven tactic is to go there in group make a line near one of the entrance and fend the coming waves until you have to retreat.

Hehe, until the way behind you becomes blocked.  :lol:

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2023, 03:13:03 PM »
Quote
Very true, but at the same time you could varnish a dropped weapon and get nearly the same output of damage compared to an enchanted weapon. It feels like enchanting a weapon is underwhelming if you are going to have to varnish your weapon regardless.

Enchanting is a permanent buff, which can't be dispelled or removed, so it stands to reason it can be outclassed by a temporary buff.

It also adds a lot of positive damage which stacks with any other source of damage and cannot be otherwise replicated. Though there's an argument to be made that this is only really worth it on a 1d4 or higher bonus damage weapons, as the flat 2s and 1s are strictly underwhelming and have better loot alternatives out there.

Regardless it would be a nice change to have +3 for both casters and martials alike for convenience sake. Martial can go "Great I don't need to carry a stack of fifty magic varnishes to use on my weapon after enchanting it" and casters can say "Oh thank god I only had four slots for GMW and I've got a dual wielder in the party. At least I don't need to worry about that person even if they are missing one AB from my +4 version. I can finally throw a fireball too instead that I haven't gotten to do in a party more than twice since level 6"

As well that it will have little impact on the balance of things it just makes it so everyone can enjoy some QoL for their trouble.

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2023, 03:28:09 PM »
So, I've enchanted on a few characters, and I've also seen what enchanting can result in, so I'll weigh in with my perspective:

Enchanting, in its current state, is too powerful, and a nerf like this is, unfortunately, warranted. With that said, I am primarily concerned with what consequences this change will bring in terms of build diversity. Enchanting isn't strictly a tool used by powerbuilders - it can also be used to make less optimized builds viable. I think that an important next step following this update would be to closely monitor how it effects different classes and builds and collect feedback from players as to how it effects game-feel.

My tentative agreement with this change does not invalidate the concerns of those who do not agree with it however, and I can see the merit in their positions. I think a big factor in why this is so upsetting is because it makes people feel like they have lost agency in an aspect of their character. The process of enchanting, frankly, sucks really hard, and when the reward that justified the work is diminished or taken away, it is obviously going to upset people.

I think that the Dev and DM Teams should find an appropriate way of compensating those affected by this change, and while I definitely believe that working with the community in coming up with a solution is important, I think that the responsibility ultimately falls on the people implementing the change. While I recognize that the server staff is comprised of volunteers and in that sense everything they do is strictly by their own choice, I also think that there is an moral obligation to consider the feelings and wishes of those directly affected by your decisions, especially if they are not extended the freedom to consent (and no, I don't believe "you don't have to be here" is a valid means of extending that consent because it effectively coerces the community into accepting the rule of the staff team and frees the staff team from any sort of accountability to the community they represent).

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Will we get any wacky stuff added to enchanting? I think really niche things would be cool, like a Mancatcher that has an on-hit stun that affects beasts and shapeshifted druids.  :twisted:
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2023, 03:29:57 PM »
All crafts
- All crafted items that had an innate +2 or above saving throw bonus will see that saving throw bonus decreased by 1 point.

This is to address the main concern that saving throw bonuses on crafted items made some of the server content increasingly trivial as one gains in level. The inclusion of new material, and that of crafted hoods and cloaks particularly, kept pushing the boundaries of saving throw levels further over the years. This change scales back the maximum amount of saving throw bonuses to levels closer to what they were prior to the tailoring overhaul.

Can you see where one might read this as "we broke things with our previous crafting overhaul, and so now we have to make another major overhaul to compensate"? That is, what was the goal of the tailoring overhaul? Why add another layer of changes, rather than back out the changes that broke stuff?

Note: These are rhetorical questions, pointing to principles of strategic planning and design, rather suggesting you actually back out the tailoring. But an iterative process such as you describe above does not lend itself to user confidence that the new changes are more than trial and error--with players bearing the cost.

Quote
Enchanting
- Armors and clothings to have the universal and other saving throws reduced to +1 instead of +2.
- Ranged/thrown weapons enchantment bonus reduced to +2 instead of +3.
- The extra bonus that only applied upon enchanting armors and tailored clothes is entirely eliminated.

The change to saving throws on enchanting is in line with the point presented above. Most were already capped at +1, it really only impacts armors/clothings here.

When enchanting was introduced, its purposes were: 1) to give 20th levels something more to go for and a way of extending character power arc without raising the level cap; 2) to improve the balance between mundanes and casters. I'll say more about 20th levels in a bit, but does this change indicate that Devs now feel parity has been achieved so that mundanes need nerfing, relative to casters?

Quote
The changes to ranged/thrown weapon has them match the bonus increase on enchanted melee weapons. It was left at +3 in the past because of balance issues, but we have since added a number of ranged weapon related feats to improve ranged weapon built and bridge the gap.

I have already expressed my opinion of this particular (archer builds hardly need nerfing).

So to go back to the ostensible reason for all this complicated change, I'd suggest a couple of alternatives that would be much easier for Devs and cause much less player heartburn:

1) If enchanting is too good, raise the XP cost. This would mean grandfathered items could be left alone and no massive reimbursement system would be necessary. The only programming change would be a few variables, rather than rework (and the likely bugs it will introduce).

2) Reimbursing players is not really a solution but making the best of a (self-inflicted) bad situation. The players invested *time* in these endeavors and did so with a specific goal. Imagine someone who wins an Olympic medal, and the committee offers to give the athlete back the cost of their training in exchange for the medal. Such an offer indicates a misunderstanding of what the medal represents.

This, finally, is why I am bothering to post about this, as none of my current PCs has any enchanted gear. I am, consequently, not writing at all out of self-interest in this debate. Yet I have had enchanted gear in the past, so what follows I can speak of from experience.

These changes devalue one of the most valuable prizes of playing the game. In terms of RP, players like to think their enchanted gear is unique to them and imbued with their PC's essence. Should it be a nonesuch? Yes. It's the prize at the end of the rainbow and has to be something worth losing a level over.

Unfortunately, the situation seems to be that Devs think they have given players too nice of things and need to take them back. In my opinion the better way to attack this problem is one that comes up again and again: getting high levels to closure.

Quote
crafted items made some of the server content increasingly trivial as one gains in level

As it should be. And when *all* content becomes trivial, the player should be bored with the PC and want to closure. Incentivizing that is a hard problem, but a better use of brainpower and creativity than tweaking and retweaking crafting components in hopes of achieving elusive balance.

The latter is a lot of hard work for little reward and much player disapprobation.


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MAB77

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #165 on: May 15, 2023, 03:31:29 PM »
The answer to that is that enchanted crafting is an investment of XP.

If I find a rare loot drop, awesome. It upgrades me and it requires zero investment beyond the sunk cost of time I've spent getting loot.

Conversely, I can't really plan to make Arcane Steel bracers (at least not reliably; Arcane Steel is that rare and that valuable). So if I want to plan how I'm going to invest into my enchanted crafted gear, the rarity of rare component loot is a huge question mark.

Okay, I take it by your comment that you consider finding a rare loot drop component a missed opportunity to gain a non-crafting component item. Fair enough, but you might just as well consider it for what it can be, a bargaining chip to acquire something else. There's always people to pay a fortune for those components. I personally find it more interesting to find something that makes me interact with other players, but to each its own.

It is intended that you should not plan around finding rare loot drop components. They are meant to be this rare. You should not be expected to find any in your travels. It's just a bonus if you do. I find adamantine way worse as an incentive to grind precisely because you can reliably find them given a sufficient time investment. The rarer they are, the best it is for server economy.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #166 on: May 15, 2023, 03:35:37 PM »
Hello!
Did I get it correctly? Enchanted crafted equipment will be, as a consequence, disenchanted and you will have to re-envhant? Or will the stats just be overridden?

I am asking because if the characters are given back xp from DMs, they will immediately jump to blind drive given the sheer amount of XP being handed out. This would need to be handled outside the canonical xp system or any single enchanted item will red cap those looking for a refund.

When this change is applied (sometime after the dust from the hak update has settled), all crafted items people have will be reconstructed using the current properties. People will then have the choice to keep the item as is or destroy it by putting it in a container to gain the XP lost when enchanting. We are looking at a way to automate refunding ingredients, since as I mentioned, the workload imposed to the DM team by doing it manually is not reasonable. There are no guarantees that this will happen though as there are restrictions with the system.

Thank you kindly for the reply! Well in case the provision of alternative mats could still play a role perhaps
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #167 on: May 15, 2023, 03:42:55 PM »
That's not really what I meant, no.

What I meant is -- there will be a time when I want to make enchanted items. Ideally I want to plan to have the components to do so. But this is not reliable if they're rare drops.

Let me give a concrete example. On my beguiler I wanted dragon scales to create leather armour. I only ever had one opportunity to trade for the kind of dragon scales I wanted. If the opportunity never showed up, I might have to enchant inferior options, which comes with an XP and time cost if I later find what I actually wanted. (Or I hit level 20 without enchanting, which is itself an XP/time consequence as well.)

Whereas if I find a new lockpick that's better than my current lockpicks, that's a pure upgrade. If I don't find one, there isn't an XP/time consequence; just a minor GP consequence because I'd still be using more expensive thieves' tools.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 03:53:42 PM by Madame Trousers Son »
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #168 on: May 15, 2023, 03:47:23 PM »
Another thing crossed my mind: this change, arguably, makes dragon scales even more powerful, since it will be the way of squeezing two elemental resistances in one piece of equip.
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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #169 on: May 15, 2023, 03:53:25 PM »
Another thing crossed my mind: this change, arguably, makes dragon scales even more powerful, since it will be the way of squeezing two elemental resistances in one piece of equip.

Theyve been doing that for a while I thought. Red dragon & flamesnake, shadow dragon & bodak (soon to be shadow silk)

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #170 on: May 15, 2023, 03:55:50 PM »
All crafts
- All crafted items that had an innate +2 or above saving throw bonus will see that saving throw bonus decreased by 1 point.

This is to address the main concern that saving throw bonuses on crafted items made some of the server content increasingly trivial as one gains in level. The inclusion of new material, and that of crafted hoods and cloaks particularly, kept pushing the boundaries of saving throw levels further over the years. This change scales back the maximum amount of saving throw bonuses to levels closer to what they were prior to the tailoring overhaul.

Can you see where one might read this as "we broke things with our previous crafting overhaul, and so now we have to make another major overhaul to compensate"? That is, what was the goal of the tailoring overhaul? Why add another layer of changes, rather than back out the changes that broke stuff?

Note: These are rhetorical questions, pointing to principles of strategic planning and design, rather suggesting you actually back out the tailoring. But an iterative process such as you describe above does not lend itself to user confidence that the new changes are more than trial and error--with players bearing the cost.

Quote
Enchanting
- Armors and clothings to have the universal and other saving throws reduced to +1 instead of +2.
- Ranged/thrown weapons enchantment bonus reduced to +2 instead of +3.
- The extra bonus that only applied upon enchanting armors and tailored clothes is entirely eliminated.

The change to saving throws on enchanting is in line with the point presented above. Most were already capped at +1, it really only impacts armors/clothings here.

When enchanting was introduced, its purposes were: 1) to give 20th levels something more to go for and a way of extending character power arc without raising the level cap; 2) to improve the balance between mundanes and casters. I'll say more about 20th levels in a bit, but does this change indicate that Devs now feel parity has been achieved so that mundanes need nerfing, relative to casters?

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The changes to ranged/thrown weapon has them match the bonus increase on enchanted melee weapons. It was left at +3 in the past because of balance issues, but we have since added a number of ranged weapon related feats to improve ranged weapon built and bridge the gap.

I have already expressed my opinion of this particular (archer builds hardly need nerfing).

So to go back to the ostensible reason for all this complicated change, I'd suggest a couple of alternatives that would be much easier for Devs and cause much less player heartburn:

1) If enchanting is too good, raise the XP cost. This would mean grandfathered items could be left alone and no massive reimbursement system would be necessary. The only programming change would be a few variables, rather than rework (and the likely bugs it will introduce).

2) Reimbursing players is not really a solution but making the best of a (self-inflicted) bad situation. The players invested *time* in these endeavors and did so with a specific goal. Imagine someone who wins an Olympic medal, and the committee offers to give the athlete back the cost of their training in exchange for the medal. Such an offer indicates a misunderstanding of what the medal represents.

This, finally, is why I am bothering to post about this, as none of my current PCs has any enchanted gear. I am, consequently, not writing at all out of self-interest in this debate. Yet I have had enchanted gear in the past, so what follows I can speak of from experience.

These changes devalue one of the most valuable prizes of playing the game. In terms of RP, players like to think their enchanted gear is unique to them and imbued with their PC's essence. Should it be a nonesuch? Yes. It's the prize at the end of the rainbow and has to be something worth losing a level over.

Unfortunately, the situation seems to be that Devs think they have given players too nice of things and need to take them back. In my opinion the better way to attack this problem is one that comes up again and again: getting high levels to closure.

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crafted items made some of the server content increasingly trivial as one gains in level

As it should be. And when *all* content becomes trivial, the player should be bored with the PC and want to closure. Incentivizing that is a hard problem, but a better use of brainpower and creativity than tweaking and retweaking crafting components in hopes of achieving elusive balance.

The latter is a lot of hard work for little reward and much player disapprobation.

I desperately wish to boost this post, because I think it is a well-considered response that is worth of attention that should not fall by the wayside.  It communicates what I have been trying to get across much more eloquently and directly than I have.
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2023, 04:08:09 PM »
Another thing crossed my mind: this change, arguably, makes dragon scales even more powerful, since it will be the way of squeezing two elemental resistances in one piece of equip.

Theyve been doing that for a while I thought. Red dragon & flamesnake, shadow dragon & bodak (soon to be shadow silk)

But before that we had Electrum+Flamesnake/Bodak. Now it will make dragonscales even more powerful.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #172 on: May 15, 2023, 04:16:45 PM »
Theyre still as powerful as they were before. Maybe more preferred, but they can't be gilded like an electrum/platinum darksteel gargoyle armor can.

People might want to turn their electrum gilded adamantine bodak into platinum darksteel shadow silk depending on all the new stats, or black dragon shadow silk.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 04:20:36 PM by zDark Shadowz »

VaeVictis

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2023, 05:03:23 PM »
There should be in the OOC a container where you can put your enchanted gear, and for a limited time it gives you back the experience (not affected by XP CAP) and the materials used in it.


Wilkins1952

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Re: Important changes coming regarding the crafting system
« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2023, 05:28:18 PM »
The answer to that is that enchanted crafting is an investment of XP.

If I find a rare loot drop, awesome. It upgrades me and it requires zero investment beyond the sunk cost of time I've spent getting loot.

Conversely, I can't really plan to make Arcane Steel bracers (at least not reliably; Arcane Steel is that rare and that valuable). So if I want to plan how I'm going to invest into my enchanted crafted gear, the rarity of rare component loot is a huge question mark.

Okay, I take it by your comment that you consider finding a rare loot drop component a missed opportunity to gain a non-crafting component item. Fair enough, but you might just as well consider it for what it can be, a bargaining chip to acquire something else. There's always people to pay a fortune for those components. I personally find it more interesting to find something that makes me interact with other players, but to each its own.

It is intended that you should not plan around finding rare loot drop components. They are meant to be this rare. You should not be expected to find any in your travels. It's just a bonus if you do. I find adamantine way worse as an incentive to grind precisely because you can reliably find them given a sufficient time investment. The rarer they are, the best it is for server economy.

" The rarer they are, the best it is for server economy." This is server economy that then rewards monotonous grinding not actually important RP. And Above all that do people not deserve to have the "Cool" Items?
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