Author Topic: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine  (Read 891 times)

Talis

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Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« on: May 31, 2023, 02:14:04 PM »
Hi there,

I appreciate that this 'issue' may not impact many people and that there might be reasons for it beyond my understanding, but I thought I would make the suggestion anyway.

For context, my character is a Magic Domain Cleric with a keen interest in promoting and encouraging the use of the arcane arts. She was friendly with the Mystran Church on Toril, and so when she heard about this shrine existing in Barovia Village she was quite excited to visit it.

However my OOC understanding is that the Shrine only allows Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard types to access it, with the understandable reason being that it is for those sorts of arcane classes. Yet as a Magic Domain Cleric with many shared aims/values to the Church of Mystra, I thought in context it might be something my character could potentially get access to. It would certainly be quite fun as a venue for RP and I would aim to be as respectful as possible of the context of the place.

So I suppose my suggestion is that it would be quite cool if that was an option - even if it needed DM approval or some roleplay to earn their trust.

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 02:15:54 PM by Talis »

Taintedglory

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2023, 05:13:25 PM »
I don't see an issue with it personally, but I have no clue how difficult it is to flag something like that
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Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2023, 05:20:12 PM »
Just to be certain, you've tested and confirmed you're barred from entry?

Talis

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2023, 05:27:23 PM »
No, Talis had a few conversations over the past month hearing about it and then today she finally got to query an experienced Wizard. However that led to realising Clerics can't enter and then I had it confirmed OOC. It seems to have been discussed in the Discord in the past too.

I wanted to avoid going IC before checking if there's any room for an exemption, because I'd much rather see if there's anything that can be done first. I'd be quite happy for it to be an RP thing to try and gain trust, or a scene, or something or other. Quite new to all of this but it was suggested I post here to bring it up.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 05:29:38 PM by Talis »

Maiyannah

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2023, 06:04:15 PM »
Just to be certain, you've tested and confirmed you're barred from entry?

It only allows Arcane casters, according to a few people I've spoken to.  She isn't.  Shes a Magic domain cleric.

I dont see it being difficult to add a check for Magic domain clerics.
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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2023, 06:07:46 PM »
Well then, I'd agree. I'm still sad about Mystra being discriminatory towards Warlocks, but at least they get a unique dialogue for it.

MAB77

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2023, 07:57:31 PM »
As it stands there is an in-game reason why this shrine is only accessible to those arcane casters.

However, I would see it as fitting if that shrine would gradually shift over from the magic of Mystra, to the weave of Hala. The purpose nominally the same, but one that changed over time as the congregation got more and more disconnected from Toril and gets influenced by Halan witches. Just like the cult of the morninglord changed from the church of Lathander. With such change, we could alter the conditions on who could enter. But that may also mean blocking access to some who have it now.

Anyway, these are mere musings, it is very unlikely to change at this time.
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Talis

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2023, 08:18:19 PM »
Ah, that's a shame.

Thanks anyway.

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2023, 01:47:54 AM »
Spoiler: show
As it stands there is an in-game reason why this shrine is only accessible to those arcane casters.

However, I would see it as fitting if that shrine would gradually shift over from the magic of Mystra, to the weave of Hala. The purpose nominally the same, but one that changed over time as the congregation got more and more disconnected from Toril and gets influenced by Halan witches. Just like the cult of the morninglord changed from the church of Lathander. With such change, we could alter the conditions on who could enter. But that may also mean blocking access to some who have it now.

Anyway, these are mere musings, it is very unlikely to change at this time.

I'm not exceedingly familiar with the backstory of the Shrine beyond it's origins as a Kargatane adaptation, but to the best of my knowledge it is guarded by an enchanted statue that at least pretends to be an incarnation of Mystra herself. I would think that any Cleric that has Mystra selected as their patron, or has the Magic domain, would be permitted entry given that there's a significant amount of non-Mystrans that have gained access through the usual means; the only unifying requirements to enter are possessing Arcane spells and answering a series of questions correctly.

Mystran Dogma

Spoiler: show
Choice, decision, and knowledge, leavened with a healthy dose of good for the most individuals, are the hallmarks of Mystra’s faith. Magic is great power, and it brings with it great responsibility. Mystra’s clergy are given the following charge upon aspiring to the faith: "Love magic for itself, not just as a ready weapon to reshape the Realms to your will. Learn when not to use your magic, and you will have learned true wisdom. Play with magic and leam how best to wield it, but not when the price is paid by others. Strive to use magic less and less as your powers develop, not more and more; often the threat and promise of Art outstrips its performance."

"Remember always that magic is an Art, the Gift of the Lady, and that those who can wield it are privileged in the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly, while being mindful of this."

"Use magic deftly and efficiently; eschew carelessness and recklessness in the unleashing of Art. When magic imperils you, hide it or hurl it away into other planes rather than destroy it, for any destruction of Art is a sin."

“Seek always both to learn new magic and to create new magic, but experimenting to learn to craft something oneself is better than merely buying scrolls or hiring tutors. Exult mote in creation than in hurling spells, and ensure that your creations are shared with others and so outlive you. Those who succeed in this last and in maturing into true wisdom and consideration for the greater balance of things in Faerun in the use of Art are most favored in the eyes of the Lady and will serve her beyond death as beings who have become one with magic and live on in it forever."


Granted, this is the post-Time of Troubles dogma, but it's roughly similar to the old Lawful Neutral dogma, with more of a tone towards safeguarding magic against abuses and using it responsibly.

Talis

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2023, 05:43:31 AM »
Spoiler: show
As it stands there is an in-game reason why this shrine is only accessible to those arcane casters.

However, I would see it as fitting if that shrine would gradually shift over from the magic of Mystra, to the weave of Hala. The purpose nominally the same, but one that changed over time as the congregation got more and more disconnected from Toril and gets influenced by Halan witches. Just like the cult of the morninglord changed from the church of Lathander. With such change, we could alter the conditions on who could enter. But that may also mean blocking access to some who have it now.

Anyway, these are mere musings, it is very unlikely to change at this time.

I'm not exceedingly familiar with the backstory of the Shrine beyond it's origins as a Kargatane adaptation, but to the best of my knowledge it is guarded by an enchanted statue that at least pretends to be an incarnation of Mystra herself. I would think that any Cleric that has Mystra selected as their patron, or has the Magic domain, would be permitted entry given that there's a significant amount of non-Mystrans that have gained access through the usual means; the only unifying requirements to enter are possessing Arcane spells and answering a series of questions correctly.

Mystran Dogma

Spoiler: show
Choice, decision, and knowledge, leavened with a healthy dose of good for the most individuals, are the hallmarks of Mystra’s faith. Magic is great power, and it brings with it great responsibility. Mystra’s clergy are given the following charge upon aspiring to the faith: "Love magic for itself, not just as a ready weapon to reshape the Realms to your will. Learn when not to use your magic, and you will have learned true wisdom. Play with magic and leam how best to wield it, but not when the price is paid by others. Strive to use magic less and less as your powers develop, not more and more; often the threat and promise of Art outstrips its performance."

"Remember always that magic is an Art, the Gift of the Lady, and that those who can wield it are privileged in the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly, while being mindful of this."

"Use magic deftly and efficiently; eschew carelessness and recklessness in the unleashing of Art. When magic imperils you, hide it or hurl it away into other planes rather than destroy it, for any destruction of Art is a sin."

“Seek always both to learn new magic and to create new magic, but experimenting to learn to craft something oneself is better than merely buying scrolls or hiring tutors. Exult mote in creation than in hurling spells, and ensure that your creations are shared with others and so outlive you. Those who succeed in this last and in maturing into true wisdom and consideration for the greater balance of things in Faerun in the use of Art are most favored in the eyes of the Lady and will serve her beyond death as beings who have become one with magic and live on in it forever."


Granted, this is the post-Time of Troubles dogma, but it's roughly similar to the old Lawful Neutral dogma, with more of a tone towards safeguarding magic against abuses and using it responsibly.

This was quite close to my feeling too. You can't be more Mystran than a Cleric of Mystra, for example. I also think the flavour of the Magic Domain provides access to Arcane spells (albeit as gifts from their respective Gods) so it doesn't necessarily feel as clean a distinction as a pure, class-based decision implies? If I remember rightly the Domain even allowed Clerics to use magic devices/arcane scrolls/wands/etc as if they were a Wizard in tabletop. Obviously not NWN but, it does highlight the slight crossover in theme to me.

I absolutely appreciate that even if the developers agree with the above lore rationale it might be more effort than it is worth to change the module for such a thing given it would probably only ever be used by a few players/characters. If there was any way to make an application for an exemption that could be another way to do it and to make sure it fit in character?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2023, 05:47:09 AM by Talis »

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2023, 05:48:14 AM »
This was quite close to my feeling too. You can't be more Mystran than a Cleric of Mystra, for example. I also think the flavour of the Magic Domain provides access to Arcane spells (albeit as gifts from their respective Gods) so it doesn't necessarily feel as clean a distinction as a pure, class-based decision implies? If I remember rightly the Domain even allowed Clerics to use magic devices/arcane scrolls/wands/etc as if they were a Wizard in tabletop. Obviously not NWN but, it does highlight the slight crossover in theme to me.

I absolutely appreciate that even if the developers agree with the above rationale it might be more effort than it is worth to change the module for such a thing given it would probably only ever be used by a few players/characters. If there was any way to make an application for an exemption that could be another way to do it and to make sure it fit in character?
For interactions with the setting and npcs, you might want to submit an NPC/Event request. There's no guarantee that a DM will be interested in playing one out, but that's the proper channel.

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2023, 06:03:01 AM »
As it stands there is an in-game reason why this shrine is only accessible to those arcane casters.

However, I would see it as fitting if that shrine would gradually shift over from the magic of Mystra, to the weave of Hala. The purpose nominally the same, but one that changed over time as the congregation got more and more disconnected from Toril and gets influenced by Halan witches. Just like the cult of the morninglord changed from the church of Lathander. With such change, we could alter the conditions on who could enter. But that may also mean blocking access to some who have it now.

Anyway, these are mere musings, it is very unlikely to change at this time.

This. 100x thissssssss.

MAB77

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2023, 06:07:58 AM »
I'm not exceedingly familiar with the backstory of the Shrine beyond it's origins as a Kargatane adaptation, but to the best of my knowledge it is guarded by an enchanted statue that at least pretends to be an incarnation of Mystra herself. I would think that any Cleric that has Mystra selected as their patron, or has the Magic domain, would be permitted entry given that there's a significant amount of non-Mystrans that have gained access through the usual means; the only unifying requirements to enter are possessing Arcane spells and answering a series of questions correctly

Two things here.

1) The statue itself is not sentient, it is magically empowered to behave in a certain way. It can detect arcane abilities, but does not discern alignments nor motives. It merely lets people pass based on the ability to harness arcane magic and the answers they provide.

2) By lore, clerics of Mystra are expected to multiclass into an arcane class. They should therefore have no issue gaining access if they are true to their creed.
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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2023, 06:09:37 AM »
This was quite close to my feeling too. You can't be more Mystran than a Cleric of Mystra, for example. I also think the flavour of the Magic Domain provides access to Arcane spells (albeit as gifts from their respective Gods) so it doesn't necessarily feel as clean a distinction as a pure, class-based decision implies? If I remember rightly the Domain even allowed Clerics to use magic devices/arcane scrolls/wands/etc as if they were a Wizard in tabletop. Obviously not NWN but, it does highlight the slight crossover in theme to me.

I absolutely appreciate that even if the developers agree with the above rationale it might be more effort than it is worth to change the module for such a thing given it would probably only ever be used by a few players/characters. If there was any way to make an application for an exemption that could be another way to do it and to make sure it fit in character?
For interactions with the setting and npcs, you might want to submit an NPC/Event request. There's no guarantee that a DM will be interested in playing one out, but that's the proper channel.

There is that as well, Dm's might allow one to engage the statue with DM statue and the stone manually given out based upon that reaction/out come. If the DM team gives the all clear to allow such.

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2023, 06:35:35 AM »
2) By lore, clerics of Mystra are expected to multiclass into an arcane class. They should therefore have no issue gaining access if they are true to their creed.

Ahem.



Compared to the sole entry I found for an actual Cleric of Mystra multiclassed with any arcane caster levels; Drogan Droganson. It may be an expectation that you take some Arcane caster levels, but as we can clearly see, there are a staggering amount of pure Cleric classes present and several that choose other multiclasses entirely. Not to mention that a High Priestess of all characters is a 20th level pure Cleric.

As to the statue; the Magic domain allows Clerics to interact with the Weave, so they'd pass the check for that.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2023, 06:43:23 AM by Grendel »

Maiyannah

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2023, 06:36:52 AM »
2) By lore, clerics of Mystra are expected to multiclass into an arcane class. They should therefore have no issue gaining access if they are true to their creed.

Where is this stated?  I find no mention of this in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, or in Faiths and Pantheons.

The closest I can find is "Her clerics are encouraged to explore magical theory and create new magical items" in the summary of her faith in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (which is expanded a little in Faiths and Pantheons, but that seems neither here nor there.)
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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2023, 06:55:35 AM »
Quote
As to the statue; the Magic domain allows Clerics to interact with the Weave, so they'd pass the check for that.

The Mystran Weave is a Forgotten Realms concept that doesn’t exist in other settings. It has no bearing on a statue in another setting where Mystra doesn’t exist.

Anyway MAB has said all there is to say about this. We won’t make changes to the statue.

Talis

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2023, 08:18:12 AM »
Thanks for all the replies, discussion and suggestions everyone. Even if I am disappointed with the outcome I appreciate the time folk have taken to engage on the matter. I'll consider the DM request suggestion on the off chance someone is up for doing something in that regard.

As my last thoughts on the lore of it all - I think it's worth noting that the Magic Domain obviously isn't a Forgotten Realms exclusive choice. It doesn't seem relevant to me whether the Mystran Weave is a thing in Ravenloft when it comes to this discussion.

Just as a Wizard from the Forgotten Realms who has studied the Weave can still cast their spells when they arrive in Ravenloft, so too is a Magic Domain Cleric who arrives from any setting still a Magic Domain Cleric with the ability to access domain spells of Magic and (in tabletop) to interact with magical items (such as wands, scrolls, magical devices and perhaps even magical statues) as though they are a Wizard. It's what a Magic Domain Cleric is in DND, regardless of the system of magic in their world. I'm not aware of any lore that would contradict this assessment and it's basically what was at the heart of my suggestion.

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Re: Magic Domain Clerics & access to a certain shrine
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2023, 08:21:00 AM »
As my last thoughts on the lore of it all - I think it's worth noting that the Magic Domain obviously isn't a Forgotten Realms exclusive choice. It doesn't seem relevant to me whether the Mystran Weave is a thing in Ravenloft when it comes to this discussion.

Just as a Wizard from the Forgotten Realms who has studied the Weave can still cast their spells when they arrive in Ravenloft, so too is a Magic Domain Cleric who arrives from any setting still a Magic Domain Cleric with the ability to access domain spells of Magic and (in tabletop) to interact with magical items (such as wands, scrolls, magical devices and perhaps even magical statues) as though they are a Wizard. It's what a Magic Domain Cleric is, essentially. I'm not aware of any lore that would contradict this assessment and it's basically what was at the heart of my suggestion.

The Weave is merely a setting-specific framework for magic; a non-exhaustive one at that. It's my opinion that a Cleric with the Magic Domain, presumably stemming from a Deity whose portfolios include Magic would be sufficient to have the taste of the Arcane, but being that the discussion is at an end I don't feel the need to belabor the point, being that the development team has stated their stance and is unwilling to consider changing it.