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Author Topic: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.  (Read 1801 times)

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2023, 08:26:09 AM »
Most builds have absolutely no hope of coming within even 5 points of the dodge AC cap and a lot of tower shield users take expertise.

That might be an issue on a server where you can get higher level or have better access to dodge AC gear, but on this one we do not and the balance changes around tower shields were made with that in mind.

Don't forget as well that 2h weapons gain 50% of your STR mod as physical damage. The math is on their side if their enemy has to trade AB for damage to rival them here, since the difference in AC between 2h and tower shield is minimal. If you're talking max level characters the numbers are skewed more towards them as parry capping is easier with less parry items equipped (meaning other items can be taken instead) and enchanted 2h weapons have a superior damage bonus.

1h users w/ no shields do have a reason to exist (mostly aesthetic) but no real advantages over either, unless we get some really good offhands.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 08:29:07 AM by SardineTheAncestor »
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myrddraal

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2023, 11:11:20 AM »
Most builds have absolutely no hope of coming within even 5 points of the dodge AC cap and a lot of tower shield users take expertise.

That might be an issue on a server where you can get higher level or have better access to dodge AC gear, but on this one we do not and the balance changes around tower shields were made with that in mind.

Don't forget as well that 2h weapons gain 50% of your STR mod as physical damage. The math is on their side if their enemy has to trade AB for damage to rival them here, since the difference in AC between 2h and tower shield is minimal. If you're talking max level characters the numbers are skewed more towards them as parry capping is easier with less parry items equipped (meaning other items can be taken instead) and enchanted 2h weapons have a superior damage bonus.

1h users w/ no shields do have a reason to exist (mostly aesthetic) but no real advantages over either, unless we get some really good offhands.

2 hand characters don’t get any kind of shield ac and half your str mod is not that significant of an addition.  Especially since physical is one of the most resisted types of damage.  Unless you’re a grandfathered class like DRD who has like 30 str just walking around and uses all the tricks to raise it even higher, or a barbarian.

People who get ANY kind of shield ac will have more ac than a 2handed char and people who opt to go sword and shield can get upwards of 70ac, which a 2handed build is more than likely not going to ever achieve.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 11:12:55 AM by myrddraal »

EarlofEtheria

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2023, 04:37:18 PM »
From my time using the Dueling Feat line, every other level you're using the +4 Parry baton in your open hand to be better than a shield. Every level besides those, the parry values don't quite reach the next breakpoint and you're back to using a shield because of the BAB requirements. Peak performance is at level 12 for full attack progression classes, and beyond that I'd recommend using enchanted dragonscale shields once you cap out your parry.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2023, 10:39:03 PM »
--

2 hand characters don’t get any kind of shield ac and half your str mod is not that significant of an addition.  Especially since physical is one of the most resisted types of damage.  Unless you’re a grandfathered class like DRD who has like 30 str just walking around and uses all the tricks to raise it even higher, or a barbarian.

People who get ANY kind of shield ac will have more ac than a 2handed char and people who opt to go sword and shield can get upwards of 70ac, which a 2handed build is more than likely not going to ever achieve.

Shield AC or not, parry AC will get you to a similar end goal at level 14+ which is where endgame variably begins. I have seen characters with AC in the 40s duel the Sleeping King, so while 70 AC+ sounds nice, there's no actual magic number, and there are better things than maxing one stat and lacking in other fields.

I think it'd be cool if 2h users could use a buckler, and reasonably speaking if they could, whatever the benefits were, we could pass them down to 1h users who do not have a 'combat offhand' item. But rounding out shield AC to get 65 AC or 68 AC is basically splitting hairs. Magic vestment is a valid balance concern as well. However, this spell is inconvenient to use on allies with a shield. Having to drop or trade an equippable item to get it buffed means it comes off your bars which is a major QoL problem if you have to do it every time you buff, not even close to half as annoying as buffing a dual wielder.

Half your STR mod is significant in the context of power attack. It's extra damage without gambling your AB away. By your logic, more AB is better, because more hits delivers more secondary damage. I've always believed in this logic personally, and many players also swear by wider crit ranges over bigger crits but that's another ball game.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2023, 02:38:43 AM »
However, this spell is inconvenient to use on allies with a shield. Having to drop or trade an equippable item to get it buffed means it comes off your bars which is a major QoL problem if you have to do it every time you buff

Cast magic vestment twice on someone, the first hits the armor, second will hit the shield.

Some people say it doesnt work for them, but having played a cleric and been buffed by a cleric, always worked for me.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2023, 03:39:30 AM »
Ah, wasn't aware it worked like that on targets other than oneself, though depending on level, spell slots, and equipment etc. available they might only want the shield, only reason I mention it. I think later game it's an upgrade over the best armour though, but it's been a while since I've played my cleric or seen high level gear.
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myrddraal

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2023, 11:35:42 AM »
Giving enchanted 2 handed weapons 1-2 shield ac would be nice, but not necessary.  You’re right that once you hit like mid 50s it’s more or less all the same.  Aside from the rumor of being uncrittable but idk if that’s a thing.  Someone told me it was like 60+ac.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2023, 04:52:26 PM »
I would want there to be a choice between more damage or survivability even if it's marginal, but yeah, I don't think 1-2 points would break anything. Pretty much every build can make it to 50s in a solid party of 5. There's a breakpoint where HP and saves matter more than sneaking in extra points of AC. The exact breakpoint I don't know.

I know players using 1h weapons with no shield and no Bonetti's feats can in fact reach this breakpoint without UMD, but they do make sacrifices for the "duelist" aesthetic. I haven't seen their character sheets to know for sure, but I do know they're limited by the choice and had to make up for it by being bards and weapon masters.
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Zyemeth

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Re: One-Handed Duelling Feats should stack.
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2023, 06:23:35 PM »
With the new NWN update it seems like off-hand weapons can be easily adjusted to actually get a full STR bonus to damage which may be worth looking into since earlier calculations were assuming full STR being applied to all 6 attacks for simplicity of math. Dual wield damage being good would be plausible then. Doesn't really help single weapon combatants though.