Author Topic: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options  (Read 1751 times)

MAB77

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Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« on: May 10, 2023, 08:02:17 AM »
Greetings all.

I am exploring the possibility of increasing the options, or literally change the properties of some of our existing components, for crafted monk gear. I'd like to hear the player base suggestions.

Be aware, for balance, we're aiming toward battle gear that will come with a hefty arcane spell failure chance. These will not be items arcane casters will want to use.
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Tohuvabohu

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2023, 09:25:11 AM »
I think a weave specific to crafting monk armors should be added, that allows leather linings over traditional cloth weaves or linings to be incorporated into the armor at the addition of hefty spell failure. There are a number of leather linings that offer useful skill boosts and effects for flankers and melee-type characters.

I personally think the leather linings as they exist are quite adequate for monk type characters, especially with the variety that exists right now in the module.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 09:29:34 AM by Tohuvabohu »

Mordch

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2023, 09:42:31 AM »
I've had a monk get to 20, and I've had some input in to how the class has been developed in the past.

Frankly I am not so sure it's gear they need. Their gear situation has been fine ever since tailoring and crafted gauntlets got introduced. The problem with monk is the sheer lack of variety on a mechanical side, not gear.

Doing anything but max dex and fists seems pointless.(unless you are a crafter and max out str) I would rather see them get the ability to use melee weapons without gimping themselves.

I've "recently" started a kama wielding monk purely as a meme, even tho that means going from 1d20 fists to dual 1d6 kama. not only do I get quarter of the damage, but I lose AB, and something like flame fists won't even work.. I don't see how new gear would make any difference as far as my 10 attacks a round meme goes, or how my old monk played.

the only gear change I would even make is give all guns unusable by monk trait to stop gun speed cheesing.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2023, 10:10:52 AM »
Allow different damages crafted gauntlets. There is no reason (afai can foresee) to not craft gauntlets with slashing or piercing damage. Even if dual type of damage is regarded as too much, giving a flat 1d6 piercing or slashing would be nice.

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Tohuvabohu

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2023, 10:11:49 AM »
I also agree, there are a lot of weapons that are open to be used by the monk class but they are not supported very well or very viable compared to using fists.

Although, I don't ever think I've seen monks cheesing with guns. That'd imply they'd need to take the exotic weapon proficiency and you can only shoot one bullet per round, alongside the reloading that takes about two rounds. There's feat investment before guns actually start auto reloading per round.

Skelni

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2023, 10:39:10 AM »
Yeah. I think looking into their weapon options is probably a first good step. They've got so many to choose from yet it all pales in comparison to just punching things.

Every monk I've crafted clothes for seems content and happy with what they got. So I'm not sure they need new armor or anything. If they did, I would argue there should be new magic pieces with weird effects for them and such. (Robes of the White Island spring to my mind for instance)

softdrink

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2023, 11:44:29 AM »
I'm not so sure gear is entirely what monks need right now. I've never sat on my monk and felt like my gear was the stuff holding me back, especially with tailoring now being a thing.

I think what monk needs more than anything right now is more on the mechanical side. As it stands, every single monk has the exact same abilities with no variation (or even scaling). As you increase in level you stop using these abilities as often because they remain the same old d6 fire damage and duration.

I will note however that a lot of monk only gear that drops seems to be locked that way simply as a UMD requirement for other classes.

All of this aside, I will throw in my suggestion for what gear I think could be beneficial. Crafted energy damage gloves would be interesting I think, done either through tailoring or some new materials with leatherworking.

Spazzer

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2023, 11:55:51 AM »
Serrated Steel 'brass' Knuckles (craftable)
1d6 slashing damage
2 bludgeoning damage
+2 parry
25% Arcane spell failure


Spiked Steel 'brass' Knuckles (craftable)
1d6 piercing damage
2 bludgeoning damage
+2 parry
25% Arcane spell failure


Flat Edged Steel 'brass' Knuckles (craftable)
1d6 bludgeoning damage
2 bludgeoning damage
+2 parry
25% Arcane spell failure


Brass Knuckles made out of steel, each one tipped with different protrusions to deal different types of damage. Due to how they fit around the fingers, they limit finger movement, limiting the spell casting one could do in them.

Enchantable, i guess add another +2 parry and 1d4 positive damage.

Think the example of items to add above are weaker then current monk gloves, and i also don't truly know what a monk needs. I don't play that boring class. I do like the idea of brass knuckles.

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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2023, 12:14:59 PM »
Defensive equipment they already have sorted. Offensive equipment for gloves makes sense for the arcane failure, can't wiggle their fingers.

Combined properties of the weapon gauntlets and plated gloves would add a bit more to their saves, with the lining providing other bonuses, bodak for negative damage, white stag for positive, wolves for slashing (bites), bears for piercing etc.

Though monks' issues are more lack of AB and missing the combat forms they could've otherwise taken in source. They arent fighter only feats, just fighters could get them as a bonus. They were originally wisdom / BAB required feats anyone could take. Combat Defence was pretty useful for them, for example.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 12:17:48 PM by zDark Shadowz »

noah25

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2023, 06:03:21 PM »
I feel like tailoring fixed anything in robes. You have a ridiculous number of permutations you can get out of tailoring. The standard enchanted gloves work fine from a balance perspective. I get you lose most the AB bonus of enchanting due to how monks fists scale, but giving them too much in gloves could get scary pretty quick considering they can already hit on d20. Only thing I could think of would-be things for flavor. Spazzers suggestions are interesting but personally I end up with more parry than I would know what to do with. Maybe something with some unique on hit effects like blindness/deafness, wounding (though wounding is fairly ineffective with the way DR functions), called shot etc. Something built around disabling your opponent in unique ways. There are also drop gloves that give improved ki strike (or whatever ups the stun DCS) that could be interesting in enchanted gloves or a bonus to quivering palm.

Duupir

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2023, 06:52:21 PM »
Fun idea would be gloves that have chaos effect on hit, similiar to the chaos shield.

-narwhal-

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2023, 04:12:52 AM »
Uncanny dodge II  / improved uncanny dodge

gotesu

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2023, 05:28:23 AM »
Uncanny dodge II  / improved uncanny dodge

I know this is not something that is usually put into items, let alone crafted ones - but since a big portion of a monk's ac is gone when flat footed, and their hp pool is limited - it causes very annoying instances where due to pathing and nwn combat movements you become flat footed which leads you to become flat in moments. Mitigating that a little bit with uncanny dodge could be very helpful.

EarlofEtheria

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2023, 11:50:37 AM »
If we're looking at how to add for a monk, specifically, with UMD there's a lot of complications. It's hard to develop better cloth without making light armour distinctly less attractive to non-monks.

My two-cents is that new options have to be extreme representations of Monk absurdity, weighted shirts, shackled bracers, blinding cowls, handwraps instead of gauntlets. That said...

1) Cloth armour that can be made with metal/wood/antlers, providing spell failure and a low 2 DR/- (see the Bone/Chain/Bark Shirt family in the loot pool for ideas, these are extremely popular items that deserve to be integrated into the crafting system for monks).
2) Gloves have a new option to be made with spikes, bringing them closer on par with gauntlets. These can add +ATK ratings against specific creatures like gildings do for weapons. Spikes being metal/antlers.
3) Arm Wraps(Bracers), the base made with cloth, while adding metal/wood/antlers grant additional +Armour AC and spell failure, instead of damage. These can integrated with the above spike crafting system for the gilding esq addon for +AB options.
4) Craftable Talismans/Seals/Charms. These can be added to armour to represent different training styles like Turtle, Tiger, etc. These would be craftable only by Monks (though perhaps it may be expanded into a class-specific feature for all kinds of characters), adding monk restrictions to the applied gear for sizable bonuses.

DoctorLuxo

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2023, 04:23:36 PM »
Monk has two main problems as a frontliner: damage and tankiness.
Regarding tankiness, while it is true that they can reach the highest AC in the game, it doesn't really matter because compared to other dedicated frontliners you don't have the HPs nor the DR to make it up for it. For example in later dungeons a monk can have 100 AC but when 20s start rolling against them they drop fast. They have no uncanny dodge nor protection against being flanked which means that against sneak attacks they can get bad rounds and explode.
Regarding damage, the fist die will eventually be good but the AB is awful. On average a fighter will deal double the monk damage.

For a frontline then you have a class with no DR, no uncanny dodge, no flank immunity, no sneak attack immunity, d8 hit die and no damage. A class supposed to frontline. Now it is true that monks have more utility but the pros don't outweight the cons, at least in PvE.

Regarding defenses, robes need to give either uncanny dodge or more hps. Regarding gauntlets, they need to deal 1d8 bonus damage instead of 1d6 and the damage should double-typed like bludgeoning/slashing in order for GMW to stack. I did the math and while this wouldn't yet put them on par with fighters or barbarians or other frontliners, the pros of more speed, empty body and  high saves will be enough to compensate for less damage and tankiness.
They also need to have leather lining to cover the current lack of fire resistance and bonus saves.

Krosenq

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2023, 04:38:37 PM »
They also need to have leather lining to cover the current lack of fire resistance and bonus saves.

Don't they already get this through asbestos threading?
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MAB77

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2023, 05:11:56 PM »
Not quite. They get ST vs fire only with asbestos, but it is part of the things I intended to address.
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Ryujin

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2023, 05:15:39 PM »
Perhaps instead for having threads (Such as misty thread, electrum threading etc), one could allow for leather padding?
This would allow for the bonuses of different kinds of leathers, at perhaps an ASF penalty?
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2023, 06:49:15 PM »
Perhaps instead for having threads (Such as misty thread, electrum threading etc), one could allow for leather padding?
This would allow for the bonuses of different kinds of leathers, at perhaps an ASF penalty?

Lining or studding clothes with leather with the adition of ASF and/or a hide/ms/tumble could be nice.
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Dardonas

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2023, 07:31:38 PM »
Monks do not need defensive options. Monks have plenty of defensive items to choose from with the tailoring update and can hit some of the highest numbers in AC aside from a Pale Master Death Slaad.

If you truly wish to give monks something to spice them up but not add to their existing power, it would be to expand on monk weapons. Quarterstaff. Kama. Nunchuku. Shuriken. These things all have one guiding factor: monk weapons pale in comparison to monk damage die scaling on their fists.

This goes not only for just monks though. Any ambidexterity build or two weapon fighting build is not pleasant to play in the itemization meta that exists in PotM. Finesse weapons all enchant poorly and give poor amount of damage bonuses when crafted. Right now, here are the meta options: 1d12 and 1d10 strength weapons. Bastard sword and tower shield. Greatsword/Greataxe/Heavy Flail with improved parry.

This is because those weapons have a much stronger damage die from the crafting bonus and the enchanting bonus. The crafting bonus on those larger damage die weapons (1d10+) still makes the crafting bonus useful even with any sort of enhancement bonus. For smaller weapons like Kukri, Kama, or Shortswords, however, that crafting bonus is just overwritten. For any elemental metal like Darksteel, that bonus is only 1 of an elemental type for those smaller weapons which even enchanted ends up poor.

You have to address the underlying issue with the crafting system and that is that smaller, finesse-based classes are on the bottom of strength based weapons that end up stacking an absurd amount of damage on top of already high base damage (strength 1.5x, 1d8-1d6 crafting bonus, 1d8-1d6 positive energy bonus). That isn't even taking into consideration the feat tax that comes with two-weapon fighting.

To swing this back around to monks, you can't give monks offensive variety because they only have access to the types of weapons that have smaller damage die.

Enchanted Steel Kama/Cutting Wheel/Nunchuku/Ect.: 1d6 damage type, +2 slashing bonus, +2 enhancement, +2 positive damage
Enchanted Darksteel Kama/Cutting Wheel/Nunchuku/Ect.: 1d6 damage type, +1 electrical bonus, +2 enhancement, +2 positive damage

Compound that with monks having 3/4 AB, the -2 from flurry of blows, -2 from two weapon fighting (with all the feats). For damage finesse classes pour dozens of feats into their build for a minimal reward of maybe 0-2 strength bonus, 3 if they're lucky. How does one this compete with 1d20 fists that have no malus outside of flurry of blows? Not only can monk weapons simply can't compete in their current state, but no finesse weapon can compete against a martial that only has to put improved parry and martial proficiency in their build for more damage, more AB, and similar AC.

My suggestion:

All finesse based crafting weapons need a revamp, given additional AB enchanted and extra positive damage. Does this affect other classes than monk? Yes, but expanding options does inadvertently grant monk OTHER options.

A suggested permutation:

Enchanted Steel Kama: 1d6 slashing, 2 piercing, 1d8 positive, 3 enhancement (4 with addy)
Enchanted Darksteel Kama: 1d6 slashing, 4 electrical, 1d8 positive, 3 enhancement
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 07:38:27 PM by Dardonas »

MAB77

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2023, 07:46:56 PM »
Finesse weapons won't be touched. They may deal less damage than the larger weapons, but they are also often dual-wielded and therefore can potentially deal more damage per round than larger weapons. It is a fair enough balance.
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Dardonas

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2023, 07:58:21 PM »
Finesse weapons won't be touched. They may deal less damage than the larger weapons, but they are also often dual-wielded and therefore can potentially deal more damage per round than larger weapons. It is a fair enough balance.

It's not balanced at all. It's four feats for a permanent -2 malus to attacks per round, typically for 3/4 BAB classes (Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse) with weapons that have no strength bonus and low damage die.

NOBODY uses crafted small weapons (1d6-1d4). They're bad. They don't enchant well.

Every "top tier" finesse weapon is something that is on the loot table:
- Blade of Three Crowns
- Ichika's Neck Knife
- Dark Sister's Blessing
- Improved Imp Blade (as far as daggers go)
- Charged Nunchuku

Plenty more. If the crafted finesse weapons were balanced or enticing, people would use them.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 08:18:59 PM by Dardonas »

Zyemeth

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2023, 09:35:15 PM »
Finesse weapons definitely do not have more damage potential than any alternative. The range for enchanted finesse weapons is 6-11 with a +1 or 2 str bonus. With a full 6 attacks per round and you assume you land every blow with lowered ab that comes out to 48-78. A commonly used 1 handed weapon damage range is 6-20 + 4 or 5 str mod meaning the range for 4 attacks per round is 44-100 with a higher ab (with the bonus of having a shield). A two handed weapon range would resemble 6-28 plus roughly 5 str mod(x1.5) for four swings meaning 52-140 per round.

Dual weapons are the smallest damage potential of the choices not to mention that if the opponent has DR at all even by only a couple of points you are dropping in damage potential by anywhere of 20-30% while a larger weapon wielder would feel drastically less impact.

As stated before it also takes a near 6 feat investment to effectively dual wield so you have to give about a one third to even half of your available feats to be a viable dual wielder who deals inferior damage.

If all weapons that were 1d6 and smaller dealt an additional 1d4 damage from crafted damage bonus, mediums all dealt 1d6, and large all dealt 1d8 it would better balance several underperforming weapons while not diminishing the upper damage tier weapons as they are.

That or two weapon defense and bonetti's feats should be single feats that increase with character level (+1AC at level 5, +2 at 10, +3 at 15) instead of a line of 3 feats to take that result in you still being inferior mechanically anyway. It's still a lesser option for flavor's sake but just a little less punishing.

I will also state I have a a few monks and my level 5 dex monk hits harder right now than my level 16 and 17 characters with enchanted finesse weapons.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 09:54:25 PM by Zyemeth »

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2023, 10:24:21 PM »
When a dual-wielded weapon can hit two more times and weapons have other flat damage bonuses hitting multiple times the averages almost balance out. (Divine might, favor, specialization, ranger feats & sneak attacks, d12 varnish, bard song & inspire competence all benefit dual-wielding more than single weapons.)

The discrepancy between damage is just AB related or strength investment. The attribute and feat cost for the dual-wielding completely removed with ranger if needed.

The benefits of dex weapons simply don't apply in the case of a monk, though, there's no multiclassing for any of that damage except varnish or whatever is gifted by external AoE buffs or voodans.

Another reason I hope for the ninja class, really, one day, as a similar theme but more damage dealing alternative.

The 4) option from Earl is a good idea. On a similar vein, like the Insignia of Claws from 5e we could do buffs applied to insignia-worn equipment triggered in a similar fashion to combat forms, maybe burning uses of Stunning Fist as its counter to limit it. That way only monks could use the benefits.

-any flat AB bonus buff
-reverse Back to the Wall, gain a bonus to AB/AC when *above* 25% HP
-Gain AC vs your current attacker / last attacker
-if a spell is resisted, small chance to send it back
-if an arrow is Deflected, small chance to send it back as a ranged touch attack
-vamp regen
-any regen

Class can remain close to source but items that apply buffs using their powers as fuel dont have to.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 10:37:05 PM by zDark Shadowz »

EarlofEtheria

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Re: Exploring possible new crafted monk gear options
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2023, 10:38:01 PM »
I think a monk with a greatsword is a valid build, if unconventional. I take it more seriously than dual kamas (which would usually be taken by Monk multiclasses).

Monks with Longbows are equally terrifying, compared to shurikens which plink off swordsman belts. What are they, 1d3? They cost how much? lol

There's also the pure AB bonus someone gets when swinging with a Greatsword against small and tiny weapons. You literally make yourself more vulnerable holding a kama by 4 AC, daggers by 8 AC.
Quote
Improved Disarm

The character can attempt to disarm an opponent in melee combat. Attempting a disarm applies a -4 penalty to the character's attack roll, and the combatant with the larger weapon gains a +4 bonus per size category of difference. A successful hit deals normal damage, and if the opponent fails a discipline check then the weapon flies from the opponent's hands.

Optimally a dual wield monk would want Kukri's or Light Picks, to fish for crits through Unorthodox Flurry, but the issue above remains.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 10:54:20 PM by EarlofEtheria »