Author Topic: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.  (Read 1220 times)

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2023, 08:33:35 PM »
I think it's pretty questionable how feasible soloing trolls with Cloud spells is now that they can't be stacked. Used to be you'd need stack 3, or 2 with Empowered/Maximise, to do it efficiently to beat regeneration. Even filling your level 5 slots with Ice Storms is going to leave you wanting more; it's not that easy to group the trolls into good shots.

Guns are also very poor for low AB classes for PvE against anything with high Natural armour (which is most monsters), because they're not a true touch attack, they only ignore chest armour (certainly I don't think my Beguiler could solo efficiently before running out of ammo or Haste spells to stay out of range). A lot of the things on that list aren't even true dungeons.

Certainly there's been considerable effort put in to nerfing many soloing strategies; so again I come to the point of consistency. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with looking at what Warlocks do and asking if what they do isn't too safe, too soloable. Anyone wanting to take a strong anti-nerf position has to acknowledge that the ship has already sailed.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2023, 08:45:24 PM »
I think it's pretty questionable how feasible soloing trolls with Cloud spells is now that they can't be stacked. Used to be you'd need stack 3, or 2 with Empowered/Maximise, to do it efficiently to beat regeneration. Even filling your level 5 slots with Ice Storms is going to leave you wanting more; it's not that easy to group the trolls into good shots.

Guns are also very poor for low AB classes for PvE against anything with high Natural armour (which is most monsters), because they're not a true touch attack, they only ignore chest armour (certainly I don't think my Beguiler could solo efficiently before running out of ammo or Haste spells to stay out of range). A lot of the things on that list aren't even true dungeons.

Certainly there's been considerable effort put in to nerfing many soloing strategies; so again I come to the point of consistency. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with looking at what Warlocks do and asking if what they do isn't too safe, too soloable. Anyone wanting to take a strong anti-nerf position has to acknowledge that the ship has already sailed.

It’s trivial to group the trolls at the gates. I did it last night.

I’ve done the beguiler ones I listed. At Dorians level it’d be even easier.

I’m not really sure if I should explain each step by step as an actual method but it does happen plenty.

It works, it happens. If I wanted to limit soloing I’d remove ethereal jaunt, nerf guns and make casting any hostile enchantment break invisibility.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2023, 08:52:43 PM »
Hey, I'm certainly on board with the last one, never made sense to me how Dominate didn't break invisi.
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cooachlyfe

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2023, 09:03:51 PM »
I don’t think you’re going to see the hypothetical 20 hour sithicus run by the only warlock player in the world with that sort of time for the same reason you don’t see a hips spamming shadow dancer clear a dungeon alone. It’s really boring.

I've done it before, it takes around thirty minutes to clear Barrows, it's actually pretty easy considering all the enemies only spawn on a trigger. You can set up your walls of Perilous flame and then use a rod of summoning to lure the enemies around the corner and into your big stack of walls. This works with anything. Personally, I think that's fine though.

Since the walls do flat magical damage, it means anything that runs through a stack of 20 or 40 is 100% dead. Which is also great, I love warlock.

I thought you couldn't stack the same spells anymore? Seems this is more the issue

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2023, 09:10:12 PM »
You can't stack clouds; you can still cast walls for now, but AFAIK they will probably look to removing that.
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Abear

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2023, 09:19:11 PM »
Warlock is not an overly strong class; there's really no reason to limit what would be an extremely tedious and annoying way to solo when every other full (and some partial) casters can still solo things with considerable ease.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2023, 09:46:19 PM »
Warlock is not an overly strong class; there's really no reason to limit what would be an extremely tedious and annoying way to solo when every other full (and some partial) casters can still solo things with considerable ease.

This is really what I was trying to highlight. Soloing with clouds isn't done by layering clouds. I don't really want to write a soloing manual here but wizard remains king of everything.

Warlock in PnP - which this server tries to adhere to - was created to have inferior raw strength to other options. It's a weak class. What it got in return was infinite casting of its weak abilities. Which works great in PnP because you don't rest multiple times per day in PnP.

On this server there's a break from pnp to allow all casters to rest infinitely in some locations, and on a small cooldown elsewhere.

So the wizard goes and takes a rest between spawns.

If we were REALLY here for strict pnp adherence we'd limit casters to one rest per day. I think I'm masochistic enough to enjoy that. I doubt most people are.

But we don't. So we have warlock, a class made weak in return for infinite casting, in a context that allows for effectively infinite casting.

Their invocations are, generally, at best okay. There's some standouts for niche reasons. Getting +16 spot for 24 hours from a pair of invocations makes 15 warlock / 5 anything with spot the best spotter in the server. Elemental immunity is something no one else gets. Enervating Shadows is head and shoulders above all other invocations in the list because it does something powerful and unique.

But if we start filing off every element that gives the class niche power, what are we left with? We're sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place in server balance:

The rock is the adherence to PnP.

The hard place is the desire for balance.

What tends to happen is something is set to PnP levels.

Then anything from PnP that wasn't balanced gets filed off.

But there isn't generally any improvement to the class after it was filed off, because there's nothing left in the pnp bible to add or the dev interest isn't there.

I don't play a warlock and don't plan to, but if I had suffered through levelling one and I lost one of my most unique tools on an already - by design - weak class? I think I'd be very sad.

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2023, 11:00:54 PM »
At this point, my opinions on Warlock border on beating a dead horse, but I'll reiterate anyway. All of this is prefaced, as always, as being solely my flawed opinion drawn from my years on the server; if I've worded anything as undeniable gospel truth, that itself is through the flawed, biased lens of my preconceived notions.

Warlock at the moment has a very specific array of features that, at best, make the class tolerable to play, which by and large are concessions to the fact that Warlock implementation on PotM is nowhere close to their 3.x implementation, despite the server's stated goal to cleave as closely to 3.x implementation whenever possible and plausible. We'll circle back to that in the latter half of my post. For now, let's focus on the features that make them tolerable to play, without which the class would be dead last in terms of all the criterion I consider that make a class worthwhile to play. For clarity; these criterion include, but are not limited to; capability (general power level overall), versatility (how pigeonholed they are into doing specific things), roleplayability (having a specific flavoursome niche that allows the player to engage in specific roleplay), and the nebulous quality of fun (at the end of the day, do I enjoy playing this class, on this server).

So; the features that make the difference between Warlock being tolerable to play, and completely not worth my time as a person. Some classes have specific niches they fulfill on the server and impact how much I want to bother playing that class; Rogue for example can be exceedingly enjoyable due to their roleplayability, which in turn makes them more fun, but their capability is in the dumpster, with middling versatility. We have a limited amount of time to live on this earth and I'll be damned if I spend that time playing something on a server that I don't enjoy, at the end of the day. Warlock, judged by these criterion, has low to mid capability, middling versatility, middling roleplayability (this is hamstrung by a number of things on the server and boosted by extremely specific invocations, such as Call of the Beast); finally, I judge Warlock to be middling to decent fun.

It's Eldritch Blast is borderline useless past a certain level; once you leave Barovia, as a general notion, you'll find whatever burgeoning power at your fingertips to be suddenly gone. Perilous Wall of Flame is useful for soloing specific areas; I use it all the time to go into Hazlan and gather Dread Treant Sap, occasionally I'll go into Har'akir at night to try and kill Huecuva High Priests for money because I don't want to spend 12 hours sitting around waiting for people to buy potions. Darkness plus Voidsense are essentially a necessity due to how the AI treats any sort of ranged attack these days. My suggestion is to warn others that you'll be sitting in distant corners, dropping Darkness on your own head so you're less likely to rip aggro. I say less, because even with Darkness on you, there's a 50/50 coinflip that they'll still bolt for you, because of the 'hearing' system which allows them to 'see' your character anyway. Potentially silent spells can prevent this, but I've not tested. Walk Unseen is another 100% necessity, unless you enjoy being dead more than alive, as well as the versatility it grants in allowing players to run about at all hours, in hostile regions.

All of these things are further complicated by the fact that Metamagic is involved. There's a set of robes with Automatic Quicken Spell 1, there's a set of Warmage Robes with the same. Either of these, preferably the robes, are in my opinion a complete night and day quality of life improvement for any Warlock. The damage output you do is potentially doubled (we'll come back to this also), but the true benefit it provides is being able to, at a moment's notice, go invisible or drop a Darkness on yourself when things go badly. Silent and Still spell exist, as well as Extend, none of which I bother using. Empower takes your Eldritch blast from a level 1 to a level 3 spell, jacking up it's damage by 50% also, but at the cost of no longer using Invocation Essences/Blast Shapes since Empowering those would take you into level 4 or higher. As an aside; the implementation of Warlock Invocations is such that all of your Invocations count as level 0-4 spells. They have a little notice at the top informing you of their Equivalent Spell Level, as in PnP that's how they're supposed to be measured against other, more regular spells. This is utterly irrelevant, it's just flavour text essentially. If it were implemented, 90% of Invocations couldn't be Metamagic'd anyway because they'd be level 6 and above.

Ontop of all this, Warlock is the only caster class I've ever witnessed on the server that will ever reasonably begin hitting exhaustion from spellcasting. I estimate that, depending on your timing, the average Warlock will hit the first tier of exhaustion and thus the first lump of flat arcane spell failure, within 20-40 rounds, if you're using Combat Casting with low to moderate Con score, as well as that one feat that just adds a flat +4 to your exhaustion cap calculations (this is essentially a whole feat for one round extra of casting).

All of this combines to make Warlock a highly active class, in the sense that you're constantly doing things, compared to others. The amount of effort you put in, however, is not commensurate with what you receive in turn.

So, we're left with a class that is a ranged caster, with low to mid versatility as casters are judged, which is very firmly focused on dealing damage to enemies above all else, with a few niche modifiers here and there that do other things; some aoe slows, some status effects, etc. It's arguably sat in the 'jack of all trades, master of none' position of casters, except that even there it lacks. Wizards are the wunderkind of caster versatility, Warmages are the peak of 'you die, I get paid', so on and so forth. Warlocks manage to do nothing really well; I've yet to see anything they are capable of that any other class can't do better. The foremost thing I've witnessed with Warlock is that everything it does takes time. It takes 20 rounds to make a maximum efficacy blazing hellscape with Wall of Perilous Flame. It takes 5-10 rounds of Eldritch Blasting a single target before it drops dead, finally. Meanwhile other classes can do essentially the same thing, but faster. Warlock's tradeoff is that they don't need to rest and that, barring exhaustion, they can just keep on with their grind until the end of time. Can they solo Sithicus content? Sure. Why in the hell would you, though, other than for bragging rights? Literally every time I go out and solo Huecuva High Priests in Har'akir as a level 14, I can jump from being in the 'well rested' state of the XP cap, all the way into blind drive in one sitting.

My foremost complaint with Warlock however is that on a server that espouses to be about collaboration, Warlock brings nothing worthwhile to the fight except another hungry mouth taking a portion of spoils and XP. Were I the sort to minmax party compositions, I would ban Warlocks from every group I travel with once I've gotten out of Barovia. They bring middling to anemic damage output on single targets, even more underwhelming damage to multiple targets with Eldritch Chain. On specific single targets maybe they have Beshadowed Blast to keep the enemy blinded and therefore struggling to fight. That is largely the extent of what they bring to any group they travel with. It gets even worse the higher level you get; by the time you're running the level 12+ dungeons frequented in the Mist Camp, you are essentially useless. Most enemies die before you get off a single cast if you're aiming at a target already engaged, which would encourage you to target the enemies that have yet to be stabbed, except for that whole 'you will die horribly to the AI hyperfocusing you' aspect.





Now; early on, I said we'd circle back around to the subject of Warlock's 3.x implementation versus it's implementation on PotM.

Warlock from tabletop, it can be argued, is designed to one thing above all else; Blast. It's meant to Eldritch Blast a lot, like how a Fighter swings a sword a lot. In turn, it's designed with Eldritch Blast Essences and Shapes. For those not aware; in tabletop 3.x, Warlock's Eldritch Blasts can be customised with Essences and Shapes. These can be combined to create really interesting effects. For example; Eldritch Chain could be combined with Brimstone Blast to set multiple enemies on fire at once. Vitriolic Blast could be combined with Eldritch Doom to make an aoe circle blast that ignores SR checks and deals Acid over time. This feature is one of, if not the foremost foundation of the class in tabletop, alongside general Invocations that 'do stuff', your Walk Unseen, your Dead Walk, etc.

Some time ago I did the math on the missing combinations. Warlock, on PotM, has 14 Blast Essences and 4 Blast Shapes. That's a roster of 56 missing 'spells' from Warlock. For which we get, in concession, Metamagic. The reasoning I've heard given as to why Warlock has not had this core feature of Essence and Shape combination implemented, varies. None of them, in my opinion, are valid excuses or explanations. Is implementing 56 extra spells slow, tedious, irksome and undesirably frustrating? Yes. But it's my opinion that if you're going to implement a class from tabletop on a server which espouses the stated design goal of attempting to emulate 3.x as closely as reasonably possible, with concessions where needed, you should either undertake that as closely as possible, or not bother at all. Warlock, as it is on PotM, is the off brand food your mom says you have at home when you ask her to buy something while out shopping.

Barring the scenarios where implementation is either an impossibility due to coding constraints, or a balance concern, Warlock should have it's Shapes and Essences and have Metamagic removed or curtailed in some way. The foremost opinion I've heard as to why these combinations weren't implemented, is that honestly, nobody wants to crawl through the trenches of implementing 50~ spells into Warlock's lists and coding a way for it to detect you have A and B, therefore it gives you C. This is an understandable and unenviable undertaking; I wouldn't want to do it either.

So, where does that ultimately leave us? With a class that's the neglected stepchild of the family, in my opinion. It's implementation has been half-finished and it shows. Does that make it okay that it can solo content? I don't really think that matters, because the XP system penalizes you heavily for soloing in my experience. But even if we assume it does; like I said before, Warlock does everything slower. The same is true for soloing. Potentially, a Warlock could solo something hilarious like the Mist Dragon or Malthor, maybe? It would be very funny for the sake of the meme, but none of that matters in the face of the bigger problems the class faces.



TL;DR, sure Warlock can solo but it takes forever and I'd rather the class be fixed before it's further broken.

Thank you for coming to my fifth grader presentation on Warlock. Please re-read the entire post as if you were said fifth grader in front of a class to fully understand the tone of my post.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2023, 11:12:21 PM »
Having played a warlock, I think if you're going to go after warlocks solo dungeoning, you need to have a proper conversation about the role of warlocks in a party and people are going to have to be a little less mad when they have the chutzpah to actually use the abilities their class has been given in a dungeon with others.

I have seen a lot of parties get mad when the Warlock uses Darkness and Eldritch Blast in tandem with one another, because Darkness takes away their XP and Eldritch Blast draws aggro from the mobs. So, okay, you don't want the warlocks to solo, and you don't want the warlocks to contribute to a party. So what do you guys want them to do, aside from just stand there?

The question is though, if I can just use 40 walls of perilous flame at once to solo Shadowmire Treants in Sithicus at level 12 onwards, as seen below.

WARNING, BRIGHT:
Spoiler: show


Why should I bother with a party at all? Warlock doesn't need a party at level 12, frankly I don't mind that at all and have no issues with it but it just seems prudent to question why you would need a party.

Neither does a cleric, Neither does a qizard, Neither does a druid

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2023, 12:00:55 AM »
So I went and made a test server Warlock and I recognise some of the above and also think some of the ideas espoused about the supposed weakness of Warlocks are also not that correct.

I ran straight to Har'akir to fight High Priests (cake walk), Scorpion Chieftains (ditto), and of course desert trolls because I figure desert trolls are the ultimate test for Warlocks: they're immune to fire hence only take half damage from Perilous Flames, meaning you have to rely on other strategies.

So far, I've been getting a lot of mileage out of Extended Darkness + Enervating Shadows + Eldritch Doom (forget Empowered, in my mind the best Warlock Metamagic feat is Extend). Admittedly it's only very effective if you can gather a big bunch of troll chieftains together so you can kill that lot before you get exhausted, and you have to be more circumspect with the casters since they cast both Freedom to counter Mire and hostile spells.

Where I use Perilous Flames, I force myself not to stack it, on the assumption that this will not be allowed once the reticules are in; and still, anything that is vulnerable to fire dies to a creeping barrage. See, this is where the strength of Warlocks comes in: Wizards and even Sorcerors can't exactly blow spells without some level of planning. Warlocks can drop a dozen (extended) Perilous Flames on an approach, then draw mobs in with a blast. It's a completely different approach.

I'll try out Port against the Aboleth and the Black Watch tomorrow. I suspect  Enervating Shadows + Eldritch Doom will work wonders against everything except the Aboleth itself, so I hope it burns...

Of course this doesn't reflect what would happen on the RP server. On the RP server, the Warlock would have to use weaker Invocations to get higher level to get Extended Greater Invocations and Eldritch Doom. But by the same token a Warlock on the RP server would be able to gear up to not dread spells from enemy casters so much. RP server Warlocks also would have full use of their UMD as well as potions to counter the small risk of glitching a hit through their Enervating Shadow (which is exceedingly rare now, since the enemy both has to roll a 20 to hit and glitch the concealment). Certainly I can see that pre-high level Warlocks are going to be a massive drag, but once you get there, high level Warlocks aren't weak.

I see Grendel's points that the Warlock is kinda broken even at high levels, because all its cool toys don't play well with others. Having to rely on Darkness to prop up Enervating Shadow is certainly an annoying price to pay for a party for what is otherwise an excellent tank that can do AoE damage.

I guess I changed my mind and don't think we should deviate from PnP anymore. But I think it would be nice if the spell had more full counters, like Daylight (which counters/dispels Darkness too). Faerie Fire's not something you'd see on a lot of enemy mobs.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 12:12:39 AM by Madame Trousers Son »
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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2023, 12:08:44 AM »
I see Grendel's points that the Warlock is kinda broken even at high levels, because all its cool toys don't play well with others. Having to rely on Darkness to prop up Enervating Shadow is certainly an annoying price to pay for a party for what is otherwise an excellent tank that can do AoE damage.

One thing to note is that Eldritch Doom will hurt your nearby allies, so while it sounds nice in tangent with enervating shadows, it still further promotes more solo play.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2023, 12:11:46 AM »
Isn't that a bug or error? The spell text says it targets "enemies", and the PnP text says targets the the player designates.

https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Eldritch_Doom_(3.5e_Invocation)

So it should be an ally-friendly spell.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 12:13:19 AM by Madame Trousers Son »
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noah25

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2023, 06:46:48 PM »
This thread feels like all the other "nerf this caster threads" I have seen. The formula is pretty much always the same.

1) Someone observes someone soloing something their class can't
2) For some reason, they convince themselves soloing that thing is somehow different than what they can solo
3) They request a nerf that fundamentally weakens and distorts what makes the class special.

I am not advocating for nerfing anything but as Plato has pointed out on repeat soloing for most classes, especially casters, really isn't difficult period so long as you know what you are fighting and prepare correctly. So, unless we are going to nerf everyone to the point where none of us can kill a gremishka alone, seems perfectly fine to me to leave it in line with PnP for the class. Especially since as previously stated, its not like the entire community is running off to go make a warlock.

IMO the best classes have always been the ones everyone wants in a party who can solo alone if they have to, which is why I love bards, sorcerors, druids, clerics, wizards, etc.
From everything I have seen you can solo with less skill and risk on other casters, and are less likely to be overlooked by a party. If some level 12 wants to spend their time spamming a sithican tree more power to them. I have never gotten a party together and gone "darn the trees are dead, that ruined my day..."

Edward

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2023, 11:38:54 PM »
Having played a warlock, I think if you're going to go after warlocks solo dungeoning, you need to have a proper conversation about the role of warlocks in a party and people are going to have to be a little less mad when they have the chutzpah to actually use the abilities their class has been given in a dungeon with others.

I have seen a lot of parties get mad when the Warlock uses Darkness and Eldritch Blast in tandem with one another, because Darkness takes away their XP and Eldritch Blast draws aggro from the mobs. So, okay, you don't want the warlocks to solo, and you don't want the warlocks to contribute to a party. So what do you guys want them to do, aside from just stand there?

The question is though, if I can just use 40 walls of perilous flame at once to solo Shadowmire Treants in Sithicus at level 12 onwards, as seen below.

WARNING, BRIGHT:
Spoiler: show


Why should I bother with a party at all? Warlock doesn't need a party at level 12, frankly I don't mind that at all and have no issues with it but it just seems prudent to question why you would need a party.

Neither does a cleric, Neither does a qizard, Neither does a druid

Thank you for agreeing with me, that’s why I think warlock should be kept the way it is.

Krosenq

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2023, 04:37:24 PM »
Not to mention level 12 warlocks get completely gutted by anything with magic resist. 20 walls aren't going to save you when enemies just run over them without taking damage.
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Maffa

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Re: Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2023, 04:37:24 AM »
I dont really care much about the ability of some classes to solo content. In fact, I am more worried about the Rp consequences for that.

If anything, I can see a crazed warlock (or mage or sorceror) laying waste on places for the kicks of it BWAHAHAHA. Is it "class normal"? I would say I am more accepting of that for classes that seek knowledge or power than, say, druids soloing content and drowning in coins and trinkets.

Caster classes dont really need many trinkets, so they are going to sell anything they dont need, and past a point money really stop having any use (cue money sinks thread). And they might want to grind to the point where they feel fine being faster than anyone else, maybe because they find themselves in the enchanting loop. Are they putting themselves in a RP corner, burning content too fast? Thats on them. Are they actually stealing anything off the rest of the server? Maybe, debatable anyway. Past the mist wall, the server is huge and there's plenty room for anyone.

TLDR: dont care what other classes can or cant do, unless they deprive anyone else of anything, or they bend the class rp so much that you can hear it cracking.


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