Enervating Shadows Allowing Dungeon Soloing.

[Nemesis 24]

As has been noted in the discord chat, this spell seems somewhat problematic.

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Enervating_Shadow

Having complete concealment means the character gets 100ac and 100% concealment.  This in effect makes the character immune to any and all targetted attacks save for glitches.

This ability is then spammable, last for 30 seconds (longer with metamagic) meaning that a character can in fact use it with patience to be immune to dungeons.  They can then use darkness (also spammable) to cast and create the effect even in areas of light.

The result of this is that it is now effectively used for Warlocks to solo run dungeons with ease, and low to no risk (save for worrying about exhaustion).  As this runs completely counter to any and all design principle on the server, I recommend that the duration be instead turned to 6 seconds to allow the Warlock to use it as it should be used, to get out of problem situations rather than dungeon soloing.  This is clearly an oversight.

[Madame Trousers Son]

I think it would be fixed if the total concealment broke when the Warlock attacked something. That's generally the philosophy behind concealment abilities.

The original PnP ability is strong in theory, but in practice, it can be both countered and (importantly) dispelled by a Light spell, so any DM only needs to give NPCs the ability to cast cantrips to potentially counter this ability.

The fact that this ability can't be dispelled by Light cantrips on PotM already makes it stronger than its PnP incarnation, so it's fair to make it drop after the Warlock attacks. Especially because it's basically impossible to balance PvE encounters around this ability.

[Dardonas]

Nobody is going to convince me that warlock is in an overtuned position while Warmage, Wizard, and Sorcerers dominate the server.

I think it would be fixed if the total concealment broke when the Warlock attacked something. That's generally the philosophy behind concealment abilities.

The original PnP ability is strong in theory, but in practice, it can be both countered and (importantly) dispelled by a Light spell, so any DM only needs to give NPCs the ability to cast cantrips to potentially counter this ability.

The fact that this ability can't be dispelled by Light cantrips on PotM already makes it stronger than its PnP incarnation, so it's fair to make it drop after the Warlock attacks. Especially because it's basically impossible to balance PvE encounters around this ability.

Lights do dispel enervating shadows. Even something as minor as a varnish or a torch. Unless under the effect of the spell Darkness, which allows it to work during the day. While this sounds like a lot, consider that a warlock with 12-14 constitution is now juggling two spells to keep active while doing middling damage at best. They will get exhausted with arcane spell failure and they will get killed.

I invite people to test a warlock out on the test server and see how it translates in practice versus theory, because what they can accomplish alone is very limited and mostly a gimmick.

And, since wizard and sorcerers have their unique spells, let’s allow warlock to have theirs.

[Dardonas]

Here's something relevant from an older thread of mine that made me change my tune about people choosing to solo content.

To reiterate, the application of any strategy is a function of player agency. No one is making players "abuse" a specific playstyle.

The people playing mages using Iron Body to trivialize encounters have a decision to make - do it or don't do it.

I don't see how this logic is any different than splashing 5 levels of Hexblade to gain Mettle or going RDD under a thinly veiled roleplay justification.

This game is one of choices. It's 20 years old, the AI possesses double digit room temperature IQ. Collectively, we can be better or not.

When I write about "rebalancing" dungeons, it's half improvement of the core experience and half weeding out potential abuses.

Time spent reading through pages of "exploits" is time I can't spend working on new dungeons or enhancing whatever I'm working on.

I implore people to think about the ramifications of what they do and act accordingly.

My phone's calculator is smarter than NWN AI - "outwitting" it isn't a triumph. Call it exploitation. Don't call it exploitation. Play PotM like an MMO; don't.

Whatever you do, be aware of the consequences of your playstyle. I really don't care at the end of the day but threads like this won't go away until we change as players.

[Madame Trousers Son]

That doesn't really address the issue. Yes, Wizards and Sorcerors are strong but considerable efforts have gone to limit their soloing ability. If Warlocks are generally weak except for one combo which allows them to slowly solo through hordes with no risk of defeat, I have to echo Nem's point, I don't see how that fits in the server philosophy.

Also my point about the Light spell is a bit more nuanced than what you understood. I'm saying that, by my interpretation of the DnD 3.5 PnP rules for dispelling magic, a caster could specifically target Enervating Shadows for dispelling with a Light cantrip under both Darkness and Enervating Shadows. (Although I acknowledge that there could be some disagreement on such interpretations regarding the ordering of the dispel stack, and debates about 3.5 rules are always going to be plagued by the fact that, by internet resource standards, it's an ancient ruleset.)

[Snarling_Badger]

Usually, isn’t the AI not exactly the brightest? Even if they had access to spells to counter it, I’m not sure they’d use it. Certainly PCs can do so, but it still seems like Enervating Shadows is a perfect dungeoning spell against the AI.

[Dardonas]

That doesn't really address the issue. Yes, Wizards and Sorcerors are strong but considerable efforts have gone to limit their soloing ability. If Warlocks are generally weak except for one combo which allows them to slowly solo through hordes with no risk of defeat, I have to echo Nem's point, I don't see how that fits in the server philosophy.

Also my point about the Light spell is a bit more nuanced than what you understood. I'm saying that, by my interpretation of the DnD 3.5 PnP rules for dispelling magic, a caster could specifically target Enervating Shadows for dispelling with a Light cantrip under both Darkness and Enervating Shadows. (Although I acknowledge that there could be some disagreement on such interpretations regarding the ordering of the dispel stack, and debates about 3.5 rules are always going to be plagued by the fact that, by internet resource standards, it's an ancient ruleset.)

They cannot solo through hordes of monsters in every dungeon, they can cheese certain parts of a dungeon with middling damage. The issue Warlock faces is exhaustion and that means they have to take extreme amounts of time to solo a dungeon. What is the difference between a Warlock who solo's a dungeon in an hour and a half versus a Red Dragon Disciple that solo's a dungeon with consumables? Gold at a certain level becomes superfluous.

I will once again invite people who feel Warlock is overtuned to go to the test server and play around with how the class works in practice, how its damage functions in practice, how the spell exhaustion functions in practice, and come back with honest feedback. It is easy to look at something "in theory" and "on paper" and say "well, that's certainly too strong."

There was already some mention that the wall spells are going to be nerfed when targeting reticules are added for spells. So what does that leave warlock? Eldritch blasts one at a time for 30-50 damage each against monsters with 200-250 health? Eldritch chain for 30-10 damage per chain?

In just a few days ago, there was a thread explicitly talking from people who play Warlocks about how they are in need of something extra, such as additional invocations known, to bring them up to par with other classes because they are just categorically weak in all fields. I've played a Warlock since nearly the class came out and I'm only level 16. I've done soloing, and it really doesn't net nearly as much experience as you think with how punishing the experience cap is.

[inkcorvid]

People are honestly sleeping on Faerie Fire. It's the hard counter to Enervating Shadows, since it removes all concealment. Even incorporeal creatures, like shadows, loose their concealment when hit with Faerie Fire, and may be attacked without a miss chance as if they were solid objects (get your beguiler to douse that pack of salt shadows in extended Faerie Fire next time you visit the Barrows, and behold how easy it becomes). It's also a level 1 spell, and you can find items that cast Faerie Fire in level 2 dungeons.

If soloing is verboten (and sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't) then there's a heck of a lot of work still to do nerfing wizards, sorcerers and warmages.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Misted Magic was nerfed, and many lockpick DCs have been raised so that Knock+Shapechange is definitely a second- if not third-rate option for lockpicking now. RDDs are no longer allowed.

It's not consistent to say that Warlocks are generally weak but they have one combo that is relatively slow and risk-free, and therefore that's OK. You can say to hell with consistency, sure, but such arguments are at least based on a design principle or a value. Your argument is based on numbers balance, and therefore far more subjective. Especially on PotM, it's going to be very easy for a Warlock to find a nail which fits their hammer, so the question of where and how those numbers are obtained is going to be very pertinent.

But OK. I'll go try to make a test warlock and see what I can solo.

And yes, if more mobs cast Faerie Fire, there'd be no issue. But I think the number of mobs that can cast Faerie Fire can probably be counted on one hand. I'd love to see more mobs cast Fairie Fire instead of nerfing Enervating Shadows, just like I wish we'd made more mobs cast See Invisibility...

[Nemesis 24]

To be fair and to re-iterate, the PvP aspect of the situation isn't a problem at all.  PvP counters existing is well and good and fine.  This topic was brought about to talk EXCLUSIVELY about solo dungeoning being not only possible, but it has been argued that it is more relevant to the class than trying to party up with the class.  PvP discussion on the matter is frankly irrelevant.

It would appear based on further discussion that the issue is two pronged; one, the ability allows for solo dungeoning of a kind that other classes cannot do - more than that, the class appears ill suited to being in a party with others.  One needs to be nerfed, the other needs to be addressed.  Perhaps that can be discussed here.

[Bounty]

The reason warlocks gravitate to soloing is because they add very little in party play. As opposed to a wizard soloing, where arguable, the rest of the party adds very little. Every class has a capacity of soloing content, some more limited then others. Most of the soloing done on warlock does not even involve enervating shadows, it is mostly hit and run or stacking walls (which will be nerved eventually). I think you are massively overestimating the capabilities of enervation shadows, which is understandable, it also looked incredibly overpowered to me at first glance as someone who mostly plays mundane andys. 100 AC is mechanically not different then having 65 AC which many classes can achieve, the concealment is a little more reliable then 50%, but it does not make you invulnerable. If you get hit (and you will) there is no secondary layers of defense at your disposal, like Premo or other damage soaking spells and you have a small hit point pool. Overall this spell, while powerful, does not see nearly as much use in solo play as you think, aside from being a 'oh crap button'.

Imho if you think warlocks soloing content is a huge problem, give them more ways to engage and be useful in group play.

[Zyemeth]

If concealment was lowered to 80 or 90% I would be happy with the ability. Though while I do think it is a little too strong of a defense I think the class could use an offensive boost such as Eldritch Chain doing full damage per jump and gaining AQS1 spell 1 at level 11 along with AQS2 at 16.

[Skelni]

I don't see the need for a change.

Warlock goes shadowed on you? Literally whip out a torch.

Warlocks are soloing dungeons? Well so are others. Darkness is preventing the removal of the effect? Well that's a very specific playstyle the warlock has chosen then, makes them weaker in their other aspects. I'm seeing this as a non issue - Especially considering I haven't come across a Warlock in my groups that does this. Let alone come across many warlocks at all.

[zDark Shadowz]

I modified improved invisibility to give 100% concealment and found creatures with blind fight really could still hit it. Enemies can still roll 20s & roll whatever needs rolling on the concealment table, or cast spells to turn you into goop. Not everything is soloable, they have to pick their dungeons carefully (which is true of many other classes that solo)

Faerie Fire removes the concealment, but if a warlock is still in Darkness, does their AC-spike get removed?

[cooachlyfe]

If the issue with this combo is that it allows for warlocks to solo then I don't think it's a problem then since as many pointed out, other caster classes have ways to solo content as well. (So do martial classes with consumables). And while it seems much risk is absolved with this combo, things can go wrong which could end up with corpsing.

Also the notion that warlocks are useless in a party is just false. While yeah if you have the tried and true warder, trapper, healer, frontline crew then yes, you're skills might not be needed that much. However I recently did a dungeon where the warlock absolutely carried while I just kept aggro on mobs as best I could. They do consistent decent damage and that is enough.

Warlock is fine imho.

[Imperial]

Having played a warlock, I think if you're going to go after warlocks solo dungeoning, you need to have a proper conversation about the role of warlocks in a party and people are going to have to be a little less mad when they have the chutzpah to actually use the abilities their class has been given in a dungeon with others.

I have seen a lot of parties get mad when the Warlock uses Darkness and Eldritch Blast in tandem with one another, because Darkness takes away their XP and Eldritch Blast draws aggro from the mobs. So, okay, you don't want the warlocks to solo, and you don't want the warlocks to contribute to a party. So what do you guys want them to do, aside from just stand there?

[Edward]

Having played a warlock, I think if you're going to go after warlocks solo dungeoning, you need to have a proper conversation about the role of warlocks in a party and people are going to have to be a little less mad when they have the chutzpah to actually use the abilities their class has been given in a dungeon with others.

I have seen a lot of parties get mad when the Warlock uses Darkness and Eldritch Blast in tandem with one another, because Darkness takes away their XP and Eldritch Blast draws aggro from the mobs. So, okay, you don't want the warlocks to solo, and you don't want the warlocks to contribute to a party. So what do you guys want them to do, aside from just stand there?

The question is though, if I can just use 40 walls of perilous flame at once to solo Shadowmire Treants in Sithicus at level 12 onwards, as seen below.

WARNING, BRIGHT:

Spoiler: show

Why should I bother with a party at all? Warlock doesn't need a party at level 12, frankly I don't mind that at all and have no issues with it but it just seems prudent to question why you would need a party.

[zDark Shadowz]

Oh right, you can also make yourself acid immune to their breath, I think...

That does seem efficient for clearing the combat XP away quickly so you can get back to roleplay.

[Favee]

Having played a warlock, I think if you're going to go after warlocks solo dungeoning, you need to have a proper conversation about the role of warlocks in a party and people are going to have to be a little less mad when they have the chutzpah to actually use the abilities their class has been given in a dungeon with others.

I have seen a lot of parties get mad when the Warlock uses Darkness and Eldritch Blast in tandem with one another, because Darkness takes away their XP and Eldritch Blast draws aggro from the mobs. So, okay, you don't want the warlocks to solo, and you don't want the warlocks to contribute to a party. So what do you guys want them to do, aside from just stand there?

The question is though, if I can just use 40 walls of perilous flame at once to solo Shadowmire Treants in Sithicus at level 12 onwards, as seen below.

WARNING, BRIGHT:

Spoiler: show

Why should I bother with a party at all? Warlock doesn't need a party at level 12, frankly I don't mind that at all and have no issues with it but it just seems prudent to question why you would need a party.

Warmage, wizard, and sorcerer have the same capabilities to solo this area at level 12 as well.

To answer your question "Why should I bother with a party at all?" I wouldn't bother.  Not until eldritch blast stops ripping aggro every single time it's used.

[Nularia]

If Ninja looting is Valid and Allowed, I don't see why someone being able to slowly clear certain dungeons on their own is bad.

Ninja looting is seen as a pretty standard thing on the server and people openly and happily discuss it and how to do it.

It doesn't require a party and generally doesn't even require you to interact with the dungeon itself.

If you want to make an argument against people being able to handle some content solo, I'd say you also have to make the same argument against people just sneaking through dungeons and collecting loot without interacting with the dungeon or other players.

I find it hard to believe one is an issue, but the other is not. Feels rather selective to me.

[Madame Trousers Son]

It's not really our principles here, it's the Dev team's philosophy to encourage partying for dungeoning while allowing solo ninjalooting.

Not that sometimes it's useful to argue things from first principles, but these aren't necessarily values we personally agree with. If tomorrow the Dev team disallowed ninjalooting, I personally wouldn't be that upset about it if it came with a relevel for all ninjalooters (though it's not going to happen; Cryptraider is all about ninjalooting).

[PlatointheCave]

Here’s some common methods of soloing:

1-6 shadow woods. Any melee. Dip weapon in foig. Even easier with the ghostly visage potion or rod you looted from that one place with nothing but a crowbar.

5-10 Mhorgs. Any melee. Requires clarity charms (buy with raduta $).

5-10 harakir scorpionmen. Any class with a gun.

5-10 port night spawn. Any class with a gun or beguiler/wizard/sorc/anything with dominate person.

Dominate person is also regularly used to farm port bounties. The primary source of wealth for port PCs that don’t ninjaloot.

5-14 harakir night spawn. Any class with fireball.

11-16 vob rats. Bard, cleric, Druid. Or anything with ethereal visage and a damage shield. Wander the dungeon drinking water until it’s done.

5-14 vestibule. Anything with fireballs. Faster with acid fog.

A lot of things become solo able to arcane casters after this.

13-20 harakir trolls. Clouds. Clouds. Ice storm. I’ve also seen druids do it with swarm.

11-16 port assassin bugs. Ethereal visage and sheath or planar binding summon.

Wizards and sorcs can solo many dungeons by drinking water or releasing clouds. The named ones are just the most popular I think because it’s efficient.

I can see many ways to use the warlock abilities to solo but they all have the same thing in common: they’re slow and tedious. They don’t even get haste on tap. Some people will probably do it but boy does that not sound like what I want to do after work.

The listed solo methods also happen to be things people do with parties (some of them, those port bounties are competitively farmed) because they’re also fast. You do most dungeons hundreds of times across only a few characters if you level on this server. The magic dies somewhere around run three. So people find ways to minimise time spent on it. Every one of these “methods” I learned when someone else went to the dungeon with my character and did it because it was quicker.
I play for roleplay. The grind is a chore. The price paid. If you have a day job the time cost of that chore grows less and less appealing.

I don’t think you’re going to see the hypothetical 20 hour sithicus run by the only warlock player in the world with that sort of time for the same reason you don’t see a hips spamming shadow dancer clear a dungeon alone. It’s really boring.

[Madame Trousers Son]

Are you factoring in the AoE nerf in all of that? Because clouds are far more limited now.

[PlatointheCave]

Yeah, you can still do it.

[Edward]

I don’t think you’re going to see the hypothetical 20 hour sithicus run by the only warlock player in the world with that sort of time for the same reason you don’t see a hips spamming shadow dancer clear a dungeon alone. It’s really boring.

I've done it before, it takes around thirty minutes to clear Barrows, it's actually pretty easy considering all the enemies only spawn on a trigger. You can set up your walls of Perilous flame and then use a rod of summoning to lure the enemies around the corner and into your big stack of walls. This works with anything. Personally, I think that's fine though.

Since the walls do flat magical damage, it means anything that runs through a stack of 20 or 40 is 100% dead. Which is also great, I love warlock.