Can we PLEASE get a Garda for Gabriel!!!!!!!!!

[Maiyannah]

Most people just pick the lock or crowbar the door to the Orphanage basement, I'd expect.  Same with busting into the Herczog hut.  Or heck, the front gate of Vallaki.

The orphanage door gets barred at night (front door that is), so unless you're already in, or someone else was already in an exits leaving it open, I don't think you can gain access.  I don't think a crowbar even works on the front door (it does, inside, which Ive done by day as well)

But, irrespective of the semantics, in Barovia the superstition and fear of the night is such that the NPCs are not going to let anything in after dark, and they are probably going to assume anything trying to get in is a hostile critter there to steal their shadow, eat their children, or steal their things.  Maybe all three.  IIRC, merely being out at night can be a horror check for Barovian natives in the pen and paper game.

[cooachlyfe]

Why not just lock up the whole of Vallaki as tight as the Village of Barovia at night, then?

And why is Gabriel trusting his goods to anyone who isn't a native Barovian?

Most of Vallaki is already locked up at night, the vast majority of shops and businesses are, and the gates are also locked, requiring someone to ask to be let in or out. This isn't something new either.

As for trusting his goods, he does have an OCR check and hands out difficult deliveries.

This isn't true though. All the inns and church's are open at night as well and gates going to other districts are also open. Then gentlemen's club is open all hours. Player shops can be open at night as well. Also many shops like the crafting hall can be crowbarred into. Now it might be ignoring npcs to do this and if it is, then people need to report such behavior or have it so the doors cannot be crowbarred.

You want to make Vallaki unavailable at night to enforce the setting? Then everything needs to be locked down with npcs despawning. Even the priestess in the sanctuary in the outskirts should despawn as it would make sense with the setting. Same goes for the vistani like Petre.

[Maiyannah]

This isn't true though. All the inns and church's are open at night as well and gates going to other districts are also open. Then gentlemen's club is open all hours. Player shops can be open at night as well. Also many shops like the crafting hall can be crowbarred into. Now it might be ignoring npcs to do this and if it is, then people need to report such behavior or have it so the doors cannot be crowbarred.

You want to make Vallaki unavailable at night to enforce the setting? Then everything needs to be locked down with npcs despawning. Even the priestess in the sanctuary in the outskirts should despawn as it would make sense with the setting. Same goes for the vistani like Petre.

Be careful what you ask for.  You might just get it.

[MAB77]

This isn't true though. All the inns and church's are open at night as well and gates going to other districts are also open. Then gentlemen's club is open all hours. Player shops can be open at night as well. Also many shops like the crafting hall can be crowbarred into. Now it might be ignoring npcs to do this and if it is, then people need to report such behavior or have it so the doors cannot be crowbarred.

You want to make Vallaki unavailable at night to enforce the setting? Then everything needs to be locked down with npcs despawning. Even the priestess in the sanctuary in the outskirts should despawn as it would make sense with the setting. Same goes for the vistani like Petre.

It is in fact quite canonical for temples of the Morninglord to be open at night, offering protection to all and with clerics chanting hymns and reciting prayers of protection from dusk till dawn. It is not far fetched for the Refuge of the Fifth Light to offer the same, the anchorites protect the faithful in the face of darkness. It is also quite logical for inns and taverns to be opened later given the nature of the service the offer. Not so for shops, the bank or warehouses. Furthermore, our goal being of driving night roleplay inside, it is not our intent to restrict RP venues unduly.

Player shops being opened at night are not our jurisdiction, that's for the Garda to decide in-game if that is a problem or not.

[cooachlyfe]

This isn't true though. All the inns and church's are open at night as well and gates going to other districts are also open. Then gentlemen's club is open all hours. Player shops can be open at night as well. Also many shops like the crafting hall can be crowbarred into. Now it might be ignoring npcs to do this and if it is, then people need to report such behavior or have it so the doors cannot be crowbarred.

You want to make Vallaki unavailable at night to enforce the setting? Then everything needs to be locked down with npcs despawning. Even the priestess in the sanctuary in the outskirts should despawn as it would make sense with the setting. Same goes for the vistani like Petre.

It is in fact quite canonical for temples of the Morninglord to be open at night, offering protection to all and with clerics chanting hymns and reciting prayers of protection from dusk till dawn. It is not far fetched for the Refuge of the Fifth Light to offer the same, the anchorites protect the faithful in the face of darkness. It is also quite logical for inns and taverns to be opened later given the nature of the service the offer. Not so for shops, the bank or warehouses. Furthermore, our goal being of driving night roleplay inside, it is not our intent to restrict RP venues unduly.

Player shops being opened at night are not our jurisdiction, that's for the Garda to decide in-game if that is a problem or not.

Since I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to dnd lore, I'll give you the churches staying open argument. However if you were talking about any other inns other than Barovian inns, I'd agree with you. It is odd and almost illogical that any Barovian tavern or inn would allow any random outlander to barge in their establishment in the middle of the night given not only Barovian's xenophobia and paranoia but also of what the night brings. Sure, perhaps they would allow people in until 8pm at the latest. But it would make no sense for them to allow a stranger to waltz inside at 2am, bleeding from head to toe yelling that there are monsters outside. In fact it is even immersion breaking that Radu or any Barovian innkeep would allow such to happen.

I'll repeat as well, the vistani, as mysterious and protected as they are, are not invulnerable. Like the elixir man, it would make sense for them to sleep, avoid the horrors that comes with the Barovian nights, and only operate during the daytime.

[cooachlyfe]

This isn't true though. All the inns and church's are open at night as well and gates going to other districts are also open. Then gentlemen's club is open all hours. Player shops can be open at night as well. Also many shops like the crafting hall can be crowbarred into. Now it might be ignoring npcs to do this and if it is, then people need to report such behavior or have it so the doors cannot be crowbarred.

You want to make Vallaki unavailable at night to enforce the setting? Then everything needs to be locked down with npcs despawning. Even the priestess in the sanctuary in the outskirts should despawn as it would make sense with the setting. Same goes for the vistani like Petre.

Be careful what you ask for.  You might just get it.

As a small dungie brained goomba who mostly hangs in mist camp and sithicus, this wouldn't effect me much. However I really wish to see the Barovian setting enforced as much as possible as it would spark and enhance roleplay to new bounds.

[Maffa]

All this discussion begs the question: do Barovians/Vallakians even go to the tavern past dusk? how/when they go back home? Do they drink their livers out dusk to dawn?

Once you go down this slippery path it's hard to draw a line somewhere. The devs have hard data that show there is in fact no flex in night time login/logouts. This will restrict even more the chance to let anyone in anywhere which is not either a temple or a player shop

[Spazzer]

Most people just pick the lock or crowbar the door to the Orphanage basement, I'd expect.  Same with busting into the Herczog hut.  Or heck, the front gate of Vallaki.

The orphanage door gets barred at night (front door that is), so unless you're already in, or someone else was already in an exits leaving it open, I don't think you can gain access.  I don't think a crowbar even works on the front door (it does, inside, which Ive done by day as well)

You can break/Lockpick inside, from last time I’ve tried.

[Famous Seamus]

We do, after all, want players to actually respect the setting lore and pass their Barovian nights indoors to roleplay. Not everything has to be available anytime anywhere, and to have merchants and storage close for the nights is actually a very good way to incite players to do just that: pause to roleplay. You don't wan't to? It's your prerogative, there is still plenty of others things to do at night so limited gameplay time is really not an issue.

I want to be clear that I'm not snapping back at you here, MAB. I see where you're coming from, and I sense you're using "you" in a general sense. I'm likewise going to offer the following comments to and at the larger group here.

I think you're speaking to a larger point here, namely when you say, "limited gameplay time is not an issue."

It is. It very, very much is.

We all know and can agree that players don't all have the same time they can commit to the game regularly. For some, it's 6+ hours a day; for some, it may be 2-3; and for some, it may only be an hour or so a couple of times a week.

I understand the desire to have the game reflect the setting as closely as possible. I do, really. But it's also important to remember that this is a pass time, not a lifestyle, and it isn't at all fair to players with limited time to put quality-of-life features farther out of their reach simply because they log in, it just turned 18:00 in game, and they have to sign off in an hour (approx. 4:00 in game) to go make dinner. Similarly, it's flat exclusive for someone to say (as some have here), "If you're frustrated by these mechanics, maybe go elsewhere."

I say "quality-of-life features" because this isn't a dungeon or something similar. If a certain dungeon is only open at night or during full moons in November or whatever, the opportunity cost of missing that window is pretty minor: whatever, you didn't get to see the dungeon; it'll be there for you next time. There's no change in quality of life, apart from not getting to participate in certain content, which is insubstantial. Conversely, having to haul, say, 80 lbs of gifts and donations around for three IRL days or a week because you can't log in or play at a time when the warehouse is open is substantially impactful to quality of life and creates a barrier of frustration where people feel like they can't even experience the core of the game (or appreciate the setting, for that matter) because they're too busy trying to play "calendar gymnastics" so they can deal with the unexpected encumbrance.

At the end of the day, POTM is a game, and players shouldn't have to make onerous concessions or sacrifice their IRL schedules to fulfill basic IG tasks. Can we please not add another one?

Or if we do, would the Team consider adding a separate NPC (apart from the Drain) who would do a similar role at night? Y'all did that with crafting locations in Western Barovia since the crafting hall got locked. Maybe there's some cooky or sketchy hermit living outside the municipality who makes his/her living by holding goods for outlanders in exchange for money? It would largely respect the setting, it would eliminate the temptation for good-aligned characters to use storage in the Drain (which, as past threads have shown, can be seen as immersion-breaking when they do), and if THIS guy/gal gets bodied by God-knows-what's lurking in the Night because someone led a mob into his/her establishment, it would actually serve to reinforce the danger of the setting/living in the wilderness.

Not quite as eloquent as I was aiming for, but it's the best I got right now.

[Skelni]

...Not quite as eloquent as I was aiming for, but it's the best I got right now.

I think I'm in agreeance with all this.

Wanting to enforce the setting. Is great. Adherence to the material, that's good - But we know some things deliberately are and are not 1:1. Some by choice and some not.

I just can't see a change as restricting a mechanical interface like this as being beneficial to anyone - Nor to the enjoyment of the server. Some things should be difficult or have a condition tied up with them. But never do I think it should be that people can't use the storage system. That's just being really restrictive against everyone for seemingly no gain. This whole topic was simply brought up because someone had a grievance with people getting the storage NPC killed and now it's being suggested to just remove him outright for half the uptime. It feels like a jump. It doesn't feel necessary.

[Maffa]

problem is, storage is the limited placeholder to the lack of a private locker space or a home. I cant really see any QoL by restricting access to a mechanic that is there to stopgap something that is far more stringent to the lore of the game (private property, safe spaces) than a warehouse closing at dusk.

[MAB77]

Don't worry about eloquence, its a gift I'd love to have myself.

I am not telling you your time is not important. If anything I face the same limitations whenever I play myself and fully understand. But you have to consider that we do not subscribe to the notion that everything needs to be convenient or a so called "quality of life". I will quote Soren here, 2 distinct replies regarding the Mist wall change, but that I believe applies well to the server in general and partly sums our philosophy for the server.

It sounds like you are very interested in convenience, which is far from what Ravenloft (or gothic horror) is about. Indeed, you have to constantly accept things not going your way and the entertainment not being lined up whenever you ask for it.

It is often the limits and inconveniences that set you in motion into exploring new paths, coming up with new ideas and discovering things you didn't know was there to discover.

So yes, we have features that are unpopular with some players. I will never be the guy to tell anyone to go play elsewhere if they don't like it, but all players ought to understand what we try to achieve for this server and decide for themselves if they like it enough to stay. We want players to take it slowly and to respect the setting lore (that does mean rping indoors at night in Barovia). It's not a big deal if today we don't have the time to visit the warehouse, it will still be there next time we log on. It's not a big deal if we can only get delivery quests by day. Chances are anyway that we'll need to wait dawn to leave the warehouse itself and to get an ox. Not to mention that many NPCs we may have to deliver the items to are on a day/night cycle as well. It's not a big deal if there are places we cannot reach at a given time, there's plenty of other places to explore. It's a big server with loads of things to do. It's not a big deal how much time we have to devote today, there is always something we can do. So forgive me, without disrespecting it, the argument of limited game play time holds very little weight in the argument. The ability to store items at night is not an essential time-critical core feature.

On your question of considering another NPC to store items at night, it is way too soon to speculate. Gabriel is not gone by night at this time. What you had was only the opinion of 2 dev members, not the whole. This isn't exactly an urgency either and we have yet to discuss it among the Dev team. We'll get to it eventually, but it would be wrong to think that we have an agenda to go in that direction at this time. The upcoming Beamdog update and our HAK update (with spiffy new features) are way more important at this time and keeps us busy.

[Inti]

Don't worry about eloquence, its a gift I'd love to have myself.

 It's not a big deal how much time we have to devote today, there is always something we can do. So forgive me, without disrespecting it, the argument of limited game play time holds very little weight in the argument. The ability to store items at night is not an essential time-critical core feature.

Perhaps not for some, but certainly for others. The 'something' that some of us can always do is to put off logging in until another day, or sometimes, another week. Or just concept a character who will never pick up anything heavy not to end up in certain situations. I can see the more 'purist perspective' where the desire for implementing such a change comes from and it is a perspective with which I generally have more affinity than might be evident from this post, however in practical terms I see it adding nothing except a big headache for quite a lot of people.

[MAB77]

The impact of having Gabriel leave at night (if it even comes to that) would be far less dramatic than you make it to be.

[rapsam2003]

I mean, Gabriel's a typical Barovian, right? (At least, in the sense that he'd follow customs. I don't know his "ethnicity"/"nationality". I don't care, for the purposes of the point.) He'd go home for dinner, lock his door, kiss his wife and kids (if he has those), go to bed, and hope monsters don't try to break down his door.

If nothing else, the man has to sleep.

[cooachlyfe]

All I'm saying is if you enforce it for Gabriel, enforce it for every Barovian NPC. Can't have it both ways.

[PrimetheGrime]

I'd rather we take on board myrza's idea of mimicking the drain door script. It seems to be the perfect band-aid solution

[Famous Seamus]

I'd rather we take on board myrza's idea of mimicking the drain door script. It seems to be the perfect band-aid solution

+1 to this. It saves having to put garda NPCs in the warehouse, and it's a decent middle ground that would hopefully cut down on the number of times the proprietors end up dead. I assume the door would lock, yes? It would almost have to in order to circumvent the "certain mobs can open doors" thing.

Don't worry about eloquence, its a gift I'd love to have myself.

Etc. Etc.

I appreciate the respect offered in this post (full version above). MAB, you and I are on the same page about taking things slow and doing them as you can. I've been on the server for three years, all of which--apart from NCEs--has been devoted to a single character with near-daily play. Even after all that time, he still isn't close to max level, max gear, or what-have-you. He still hasn't seen substantial chunks of mid-, high-, or even low-level content. Heck, he hasn't even visited all the domains yet. So I get you; it's a marathon and a journey, not a sprint, especially when it comes to RP.

To put it as plainly as possible, I just don't want to see someone get stuck hauling 300 pounds of stuff they were given (which happened once) for a couple of days because their login times and availability don't align with IG daylight hours. It would mean taking things slow in a hilariously literal fashion, because just moving from place to place would be a herculean task. That's obviously an uncommon situation to the point of being almost farcical (borderline immersion-breaking, even, because no one's going to haul around a giant satchel like that for days), but there are also the more common instances, such as people not being able to grab necessary gear for a run or, perhaps, ignoring RP opportunities as they rush to finish a delivery before dusk.

While that's the risk someone takes in playing the game, it's also worth asking whether these sorts of scenarios would actually stifle RP or disenfranchise players who don't know better, many of whom are newer players.

Yeah, there's something to be said for learning your lesson from the school of hard knocks. (I'm speaking as the player of the above-mentioned character whose ignorance once got Gabriel killed by wererats, which led to a character-changing arc.) However, it's also worth acknowledging that the server is plenty hard on new players. Given that new players and characters are often the ones doing deliveries for money, they and the players with less time to play would be the ones affected by the potential nighttime removal of Gabriel.

So while I'm coming at this from a somewhat selfish angle, I also don't want to see others have to go through this, especially not when the OP has spoken up to voice their concern about Gabriel's existing lack of availability due to his unfortunate, repeated demise.

If nothing else, the man has to sleep.

True. If realism is what we're striving for, this idea can be embraced by having him replaced with a "night shift" warehouse NPC who does the same thing, as--if memory serves--occurs in other parts of Barovia.

The impact of having Gabriel leave at night (if it even comes to that) would be far less dramatic than you make it to be.

With absolute respect, because I know you aren't trying to be rude here, I don't think anyone is trying to be dramatic. Concerns have been voiced, possibilities raised, and anecdotal evidence presented. You know I've got a lot of respect for what you and the rest of the Dev Team do, but I've got to call the fallacy here: dismissing such a concern out of hand because the impact "would be far less dramatic" without providing evidence or further rationale doesn't really advance the opposing viewpoint.

We could try pointing to the Vallaki bank for comparison. It also closes at night. People can't get their money. However, this isn't an equivalent comparison because there are alternatives to the bank if a character needs money but isn't available during banking hours: namely, "kick down door, kill monster, get treasure." There isn't an alternative to the warehouse's item-storage service, unless you want to go to the Drain (not an option for everyone), the Dyad (may as well wait for the warehouse to reopen at that point), or Lucine or the handful of other storage places abroad (ditto).

[HM01]

I'd rather we take on board myrza's idea of mimicking the drain door script. It seems to be the perfect band-aid solution

This is perhaps the best way, in my opinion. The fix really doesn't require an overhaul of Vallaki, or righteous insinuation about how individuals "don't respect the night". I think there is a creative compromise possible that still respects the setting. (Sounds like a good opportunity to upgrade to RVT Premium Storage™.)

I will say this though as someone who religiously uses a storage that closes at night time masochistically by choice (The Port-a-Lucine Warehouse , available from 6am-6pm). It is a rather minor inconvenience at its worst., akin to a thorn in the side. The worst part is not using it myself, rather it is subjecting other players to the inconvenience of it for all the previously aforementioned reasons posted in this thread. I may be able to manage my time in a way that is appropriate for me, but once the claim is in someone else's hands - it is for better or worse, their problem now.

Only, can we not penalize the quality of life of everyone on the server because I asked for a small quality of life fix.

I'm sorry OP, I really am. It would not be the first time a truly minor inconvenience has resulted in a major overhaul. Such is an unfortunate glimpse as to how the sausage is made. I personally hope you continue to share your feedback.

[EarlofEtheria]

Gabriel can go home at night, that's fine.

Replace them with a Red Vardo Agent who can kick some lycanthrope butt, or a no-name night shift Gundarakite who doesn't have any other choice for income.

[strangerinthealps]

I'd rather we take on board myrza's idea of mimicking the drain door script. It seems to be the perfect band-aid solution

+1

That way, if you are in combat, you can't even communicate with the door. Problem solved!!!

[apeppertoo]

Any solution that doesn't make the complaint (he's unavailable) worse sounds good to me.

Also:

[Maiyannah]

To put it as plainly as possible, I just don't want to see someone get stuck hauling 300 pounds of stuff they were given (which happened once) for a couple of days because their login times and availability don't align with IG daylight hours. It would mean taking things slow in a hilariously literal fashion, because just moving from place to place would be a herculean task. That's obviously an uncommon situation to the point of being almost farcical (borderline immersion-breaking, even, because no one's going to haul around a giant satchel like that for days), but there are also the more common instances, such as people not being able to grab necessary gear for a run or, perhaps, ignoring RP opportunities as they rush to finish a delivery before dusk.

While that's the risk someone takes in playing the game, it's also worth asking whether these sorts of scenarios would actually stifle RP or disenfranchise players who don't know better, many of whom are newer players.

How many truly new characters even know the warehouse is a thing?  Genuinely.  I had to tell my partner about it for her own character, and she has the benefit of someone whom already has played for some length to point these things out to her.  There is nothing in the game that actually directs you there, short of other players.  I have had to explain and show it to several people, some of whom have been around longer than I.

Let's not delude ourselves here: this is largely an inconvenience to more established players, not newbies.  Most newbies are flogging anything of value they find to Petre to begin with, so that they can get coin, not storing things.

[Maffa]

Newer players doesnt necessarily mean newly misted. This as many other things are taught and learned by word of mouth.

If you ever gone buying anything off peddlers in the outskirts, you will see that the most precious or heavy items, such as armors, are weightless claims.

But the issue, trying to interpret the always excellent Famous Seamus, is that newer players have less strategies to circumvent an issue such as that. Crafters have it worst. People with contingent playing time (a.k.a "having a life") will have more problems dealing with it.

And I want to reiterate that the supposed "truer to the setting" solution hampers the very reason why there is a storing warehouse in the first place: a finite inventory space, plus the impossibility of having a personal locked chest anywhere, which, even if related to limitations to server load and other technical issues, it is SO MORE BASIC as a immersion breaking factor than an NPC working during a night shift. The warehouse is a patch, not a staple.

And on a side note, I personally do not like the drift towards having people waste their time in game as a solution. A few months ago I came to the realization that allowing myself playing for ONLY three hours a day makes me barely accomplish anything as it is. If i were to invest three hours a day every day on anything else... better not finishing this thought.

[MAB77]

[...] And on a side note, I personally do not like the drift towards having people waste their time in game as a solution. A few months ago I came to the realization that allowing myself playing for ONLY three hours a day makes me barely accomplish anything as it is. If i were to invest three hours a day every day on anything else... better not finishing this thought.

Wrong.

There was a never a drift toward wasting time, RPing is not wasting time. If you believe that you are on the wrong server. Here, storytelling comes first, always. It always was the desire for it from the moment this server was created. It's been repeated countless of times here and in other posts, by me, by others, Soren, EO, Bluebomber, people with far far more experience than me etc.

The drift the staff, observes is far more that more & more players prefer an MMO style of play. Fast XP, fat loot, mad rush to level 20, convenience, easiness, no risks, no hard choices. That's were the drift is. It's fair that we each have our prefered style of play. But MMO style is not our intent for the server, we ARE consciously, willingly, most assuredly doing our best to go in a different direction. You do not have to like it, but that is the vision of the staff. We lost players because we made things too easy over the years too, you know.

The funny part in this discussion btw is that we have no agenda to remove Gabriel at night at this time. We're pretty much just trading personal opinions only. The truth will always remain that Gabriel is not such a core feature that you have to visit him every night. Removing him it would end up being like the invisibility, freedom of change, vistani elixir and vestments of faith changes. All changes that prove to be beneficial in changing in-game behaviors. And you'd even still hve the drain for a 24/7 storage spot.