Author Topic: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?  (Read 498 times)

Madame Trousers Son

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Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« on: March 16, 2023, 06:44:58 PM »
I wanted to ask the Dev team to consider adding Hold Portal to the Beguiler spell list. I think it's a very fitting spell for Beguilers, since they otherwise get Hold Person/Monster, etc. They're also a little lacking in their level 1 spells, as there's a lot of level 1 spells that can't be implemented from PnP (e.g. Obscuring Mists).

Over all I think adding the spell to the Beguiler spell list would suit the class's "soft" power focus.
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bloodless

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2023, 06:45:56 PM »
Makes sense to me.

PlatointheCave

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2023, 07:50:48 PM »
+1

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2023, 01:13:19 AM »
In light of the HAK update I wanted to ask the Dev team to please consider this!
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2023, 04:09:52 AM »
It's pretty primo for looting and ganks. It'd be a fun buff for the class.

Krosenq

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2023, 06:32:15 AM »
My main issue with this is that it would be a little too convenient for beguilers. Wizards, sorcerers and warlocks have to make considerable sacrifices to fully utilize this spell, either by CCing open lock, by taking levels of another class which lowers the DC of the spell (in order to be able to open the lock) , or by sacrificing other spells that are important.

A beguiler on the other hand, would be able to effortlessly lock and unlock any door on a whim through the freedom offered by spontaneous casting. They would end up with high lock DCs with no real sacrifice or investment.

Furthermore, it's an abjuration spell that physically creates or manipulates the lock of a door. It doesn't follow their general theme of enchantment, illusions and hindering enemies through deliberating magic.

TLDR: It would be a fun addition to beguiler, but it would be giving them a lot for no real investment or effort, making them the one sole caster that can effortlessly unlock the highest DC locks that this spell can produce, while also being able to cast it themselves.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 07:43:24 AM by Krosenq »
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Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2023, 07:14:40 AM »
It's a level 1 spell. You're not supposed to make immense sacrifices for it.

The Open Lock DC at is spell caster level + 20; and the Bash DC is spell caster level + 10. Someone with STR 20 and a crowbar won't even have to drink a Strength potion to bash it open; and a lock DC of 40 is not a heavy investment when you can get +7 from craftable clothing alone. An equivalent level Wizard with Knock would only need one skill rank, one +1 dagger  and a Thieves' belt to match the DC, and that's assuming they're just DEX 10.

You're absolutely right to say that Beguilers would be a class that would get far more use out of this spell. But that's for two reasons:

1) All the other classes that can access this usually have better choices. The reality is that this is a level 1 spell that is almost never going to see any real use. Sure, some Wizards might use it situationally. But is a Sorceror really going take this spell as one of their level 1 spell choices? I doubt it. Same with Warlocks: how many are going to take this as one of their Lesser Invocations when they can only take three? Monster Hunters, for their part, are pretty rare.

2) Conversely, Beguilers have the opposite problem: most of their level 1 spell list is pretty poor. They've been given Balagarn's Iron Horn and Faerie Fire to fill out their spell list; IMO Balagarn's Iron Horn is an even weirder fit, however.

I'd be very happy to see Beguilers lose Balagarn’s Iron Horn, a spell that doesn't fit their themes, if that means they can get Hold Portal, a spell that does.
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Krosenq

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2023, 07:31:43 AM »
You make some excellent points, and I guess I agree with most of them.

But I still think that spontanously being able to lock any door with a DC 30 bash or DC 40 OL is extremely powerful. Most non strength/non trapper players would have no way to get through this. And this includes a lot of monsters too, who don't have 30+ strength.

It's an amazing tool that beguilers would be able to make great use of. The question is if giving them even more utility is fair to other trappers and casters.

But you've moved the needle for me. I'm a bit more conflicted on this now, and less sure about my position.
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MAB77

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2023, 07:36:50 AM »
Remember that a beguiler sacrifices versatility to specialize in roguish skills and enchantment/illusion spells. It's a trade-off. Hold Portal being an abjuration spell, it makes very little sense to add it to their spell list. Being good at crashing gates does not systematically imply being good at blocking them.
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Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2023, 07:44:22 AM »
Most non strength/non trapper players would have no way to get through this. And this includes a lot of monsters too, who don't have 30+ strength.

If we're discussing PvE, then yes, Beguilers would have a very useful tool to try and help parties retreat when they're fleeing a lost fight against mobs. But I think that's OK. It's a nice little trick and the spell's main intended purpose. It's just that most classes otherwise won't be using it because the opportunity cost is too high (simply put, there's better level 1 spells). So letting Beguilers do this, in my book, is all clear sailing.

For defensive-PvP I would use the same argument. If someone's able to protect themselves through quick thinking and the use of a Hold Portal, good for them; after all Beguilers ought to be able to use Obscuring Mist towards the same effect but that spell isn't on the server.

If we're discussing attacking-PvP and we're putting forth that this effect is too strong in the hands of a Beguiler, then I have to broaden the question; most attacking-PvP is planned because the attacker often has the luxury of initiating the combat. Does the Beguiler's spontaenous casting really lend itself to a decisive advantage in this scenario? I'd argue no: a Wizard can plan to use a Hold Portal and lock someone in a room that they've Acid Fogged/Incendiary Clouded, after all.
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Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2023, 07:45:33 AM »
Remember that a beguiler sacrifices versatility to specialize in roguish skills and enchantment/illusion spells. It's a trade-off. Hold Portal being an abjuration spell, it makes very little sense to add it to their spell list. Being good at crashing gates does not systematically imply being good at blocking them.

But surely we agree that Balagarn's Iron Horn is a worse fit.
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Maffa

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2023, 08:02:43 AM »
...
Remember that a beguiler sacrifices versatility to specialize in roguish skills and enchantment/illusion spells. It's a trade-off. Hold Portal being an abjuration spell, it makes very little sense to add it to their spell list. Being good at crashing gates does not systematically imply being good at blocking them.

But surely we agree that Balagarn's Iron Horn is a worse fit.

but no one ever uses it so it's like it's not even there  :lol:


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bloodless

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2023, 08:03:05 AM »
They also notably lack directly offensive spells like Phantasmal Killer, which is an Illusion.

McNastea

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2023, 09:02:29 AM »
Remember that a beguiler sacrifices versatility to specialize in roguish skills and enchantment/illusion spells. It's a trade-off. Hold Portal being an abjuration spell, it makes very little sense to add it to their spell list. Being good at crashing gates does not systematically imply being good at blocking them.

Agree
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2023, 10:14:49 AM »
« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 10:21:13 AM by zDark Shadowz »

KovosDatch

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2023, 10:50:02 AM »
I'd see them have more spells that are meant to be in their lists than not. Like Inevitable Defeat, now that different damage types are around.

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/inevitable-defeat--2953/index.html

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/whelm--2957/index.html

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/whelming-blast--2959/index.html

https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/whelm-mass--2958/index.html

And this one just knocks people right out.
https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/overwhelm--2954/index.html

Beguilers spellbooks do have offensive options, why werent they given them yet?

I imagine because a rogue who could also act as a battle wizard would be pretty op.

Maffa

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Re: Add Hold Portal to the Beguiler list?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2023, 11:51:39 AM »
battle wizard is a hyperbole... besides there are battle wizards/rogues already in the game past lvl 15, and are arcane casters with rogue equipment (many can also frontline with great success, BTW).

The fact that their targets are a very limited subset of potential enemies is enough limitation, IMO. I dont want to rehash my thread over the fact that begs past a certain point become either less, or totally irrelevant. But the point stands. They should be masters of mind manipulation, thats it.


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