Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand

[Vantes-]

Sounds good to me. If the result is to stop them from wandering and entering other transitions, sure. We can agree on that.

[softdrink]

I can think of a few good spots that would benefit from not having them enter other transitions. One example being the Morninglord sanctuary in the slums.

Sometimes fog wardens will chase people in there and kill a bunch of npcs.

[KovosDatch]

Truly this isn't a spiders in Port issue but a larger issue regarding mist spawns abd transitions. For example, having Lamoridan crawling claws bum rush Father Ilie in the ML sanctuary is just as jarring as spiders murdering NPCs.

I can think of a few good spots that would benefit from not having them enter other transitions. One example being the Morninglord sanctuary in the slums.

Sometimes fog wardens will chase people in there and kill a bunch of npcs.

This.

[KovosDatch]

In the same vein, why do we have gangs spawn a few paces away from transitions in alleys by the docks and printers? They can cross boundaries and kill nobles. It's the same argument, just different mobs (because a Port noblewoman is not going to stand up against a caliban brute).

[bloodless]

In the same vein, why do we have gangs spawn a few paces away from transitions in alleys by the docks and printers? They can cross boundaries and kill nobles. It's the same argument, just different mobs (because a Port noblewoman is not going to stand up against a caliban brute).

I'm fairly certain they never cross, actually. I've certainly never seen them step a foot out of the Marchand, and that was while actively chasing me towards the transition.

[Madame Trousers Son]

They did sometimes cross, this was corrected.

[EO]

They shouldn't transition to Publique (or Savant); that's a bug we'll fix. I'll also fix the day/night routine issues.

[Dardonas]

The mists should not have as active of a presence within the city. Outside of the city is fine (there is already a mist spawn out there) because there is no Gendarme or prominent NPC presence.

If that's the case. Why are there not Gendarme NPCs at nighttime patrolling the Marchande. It's an under-secure area is it not? So it would make sense the monsters and thugs can come out to play here more readily.

Because in the setting, there are two forces playing against each other.

Spoilers on the setting.

Spoiler: show

The Living Brain largely controls the underworld largely and d'Honaire controls the "civilized" parts of Port, with some overlap between the two. The Living Brain is almost like a co-Dark Lord of the setting in their importance.

Canonically, the Charlotte's Daughters would have a very hard time if they were going against both of those forces, massacring criminals. And to my understanding, Red Widows are not immune to mind-affecting effects so they would be put under a thumb really quickly if they were being as disruptive as they were to "business as usual."

I think, like suggested above, the Charlotte's Daughters would fit better as a gang that just appears normally in Port.  At the very least, not in the Marchand. I'd argue that it should extend to the Ouvrier as well, but only the Marchand is fine.

[KovosDatch]

I will also add that having dead NPCs should be no more jarring than someone killing a thug and leaving their loot in tact and thus leaving the body there. You are walking down a street and you see a dead person or three lining it -- that should be jarring enough, whether thug or innocent.

And having dead npcs due to thugs/monsters attacking in the docks is no different than having two or three vallaki garda laying dead in the outskirts from a wererat or three. And since the docks and the outskirts never not have people in it, those npc bodies stick around until the next crash or reset.

It's the exact same principle. And this is coming from someone who has spent considerable time in both realms.

[Madame Trousers Son]

With all due respect, that's not how Port works. Heck, that's not how real life works, a lot of the time.

Port is all about compartmentalisation. The very same people who'd cry over a dead orphan wouldn't even think about the dead thugs.

[KovosDatch]

With all due respect, that's not how Port works. Heck, that's not how real life works, a lot of the time.

Port is all about compartmentalisation. The very same people who'd cry over a dead orphan wouldn't even think about the dead thugs.

And not to overlook that, but the majority of npcs that these mobs kill are poor dockworkers, which you wouldn't bat an eye at either if you were a noble.

So then why is it a problem if they lay there dead?

[Madame Trousers Son]

If you're a rich apathetic NPC noble, then you're (a) possibly busy putting up an air of being affected as part of Port's morality theatre; (b) possibly genuinely angry that your bottom line might be affected. Perhaps both at the same time.

The point is: dead workers are bad for business. Dead thugs aren't.

The Marchand is not the Ouvrier. The docks control the economic lifeblood of much of the city. Dock workers threatening strikes has been part of major storylines unfolding.

[KovosDatch]

If you're a rich apathetic NPC noble, then you're (a) possibly busy putting up an air of being affected as part of Port's morality theatre; (b) possibly genuinely angry that your bottom line might be affected. Perhaps both at the same time.

The point is: dead workers are bad for business. Dead thugs aren't.

The Marchand is not the Ouvrier. The docks control the economic lifeblood of much of the city. Dock workers threatening strikes has been part of major storylines unfolding.

I think we are getting a bit off topic on this, but I will argue that there are always more people willing to take the job and strike-breakers who are looking to get in good with the bosses.

At the end of the day, my stance is:
-The theme of the Charlotte's Daughters are in line for Dementlieu where deception is key. Having a woman suddenly go Red Widow style is the perfect match for that. There is a spider brothel and (judging by how the mobs are portrayed) they would find a cozy home there too
-The mists spawn other mobs that are not realm appropriate (looking at you, grave elementals)
-The mist spawns are functioning as intended on an OOC level in the fact that they make you think twice about going into the poor district of Port at night
-The mist spawns reinforce the fact that the poor parts of the city are lawless at night
-Having dead npcs are no more jarring in Port than Barovia (which dead NPCs are nearly a meme in Vallaki)

I see no reason to remove them as they make sense overall, but I am not against it if they are removed elsewhere too -OR- they properly despawn come sunrise.

[Dardonas]

If you're a rich apathetic NPC noble, then you're (a) possibly busy putting up an air of being affected as part of Port's morality theatre; (b) possibly genuinely angry that your bottom line might be affected. Perhaps both at the same time.

The point is: dead workers are bad for business. Dead thugs aren't.

The Marchand is not the Ouvrier. The docks control the economic lifeblood of much of the city. Dock workers threatening strikes has been part of major storylines unfolding.

I think we are getting a bit off topic on this, but I will argue that there are always more people willing to take the job and strike-breakers who are looking to get in good with the bosses.

At the end of the day, my stance is:
-The theme of the Charlotte's Daughters are in line for Dementlieu where deception is key. There is a spider brothel and (judging by how the mobs are portrayed, they would find a cozy home there)
-The mists spawn other mobs that are not realm appropriate (looking at you, grave elementals)
-The mist spawns are functioning as intended on an OOC level in the fact that they make you think twice about going into the poor district of Port at night
-The mist spawns reinforce the fact that the poor parts of the city are lawless at night
-Having dead npcs are no more jarring in Port than Barovia (which dead NPCs are nearly a meme in Vallaki)

I see no reason to remove them as they make sense overall, but I am not against it if they are removed elsewhere too -OR- they properly despawn come sunrise.

The mists spawns in general are not appropriate for the interior of the city. They do not make sense lore wise from many angles. Having mist spawns outside of the city is fine.

The mist spawns do not reinforce any of the themes of Port. They reinforce the themes of Barovia, which do not exist in Port in that fashion.

Having dead nobles in Port is more jarring than in Barovia because nobles get massacred in the Quartier Publique is in opposition to the domain and desires of the Dark Lord. As unfortunate as it sounds, dead NPCs in Barovia is a common, lore supported occurence. Creatures killing workers who came outside too early in Vallaki makes more sense and is far less jarring than the nobility getting butchered in Port, when they are supposed to be entirely ignorant to the horrors of the world around them.

[Madame Trousers Son]

You're ignoring the counterpoints already made. Charlotte's Daughters winning the streets over the gangs isn't "deception". It's only deception if they become one of the gangs.

[KovosDatch]

If you're a rich apathetic NPC noble, then you're (a) possibly busy putting up an air of being affected as part of Port's morality theatre; (b) possibly genuinely angry that your bottom line might be affected. Perhaps both at the same time.

The point is: dead workers are bad for business. Dead thugs aren't.

The Marchand is not the Ouvrier. The docks control the economic lifeblood of much of the city. Dock workers threatening strikes has been part of major storylines unfolding.

I think we are getting a bit off topic on this, but I will argue that there are always more people willing to take the job and strike-breakers who are looking to get in good with the bosses.

At the end of the day, my stance is:
-The theme of the Charlotte's Daughters are in line for Dementlieu where deception is key. There is a spider brothel and (judging by how the mobs are portrayed, they would find a cozy home there)
-The mists spawn other mobs that are not realm appropriate (looking at you, grave elementals)
-The mist spawns are functioning as intended on an OOC level in the fact that they make you think twice about going into the poor district of Port at night
-The mist spawns reinforce the fact that the poor parts of the city are lawless at night
-Having dead npcs are no more jarring in Port than Barovia (which dead NPCs are nearly a meme in Vallaki)

I see no reason to remove them as they make sense overall, but I am not against it if they are removed elsewhere too -OR- they properly despawn come sunrise.

The mists spawns in general are not appropriate for the interior of the city. They do not make sense lore wise from many angles. Having mist spawns outside of the city is fine.

The mist spawns do not reinforce any of the themes of Port. They reinforce the themes of Barovia, which do not exist in Port in that fashion.

Having dead nobles in Port is more jarring than in Barovia because nobles get massacred in the Quartier Publique is in opposition to the domain and desires of the Dark Lord. As unfortunate as it sounds, dead NPCs in Barovia is a common, lore supported occurence. Creatures killing workers who came outside too early in Vallaki makes more sense and is far less jarring than the nobility getting butchered in Port, when they are supposed to be entirely ignorant to the horrors of the world around them.

False. Gangs and murderers would butcher people in Port just as often, and the rich would scarcely bat an eye. It is why the poor districts are not patrolled - the Gendarme and the nobles care little for the well-being of the poor and open food banks just to make themselves feel better. Murder and death would happen just as often in Port as in Barovia.

You're ignoring the counterpoints already made. Charlotte's Daughters winning the streets over the gangs isn't "deception". It's only deception if they become one of the gangs.

Having regular looking women go around murdering to feed their own needs is exactly the type of deception in Port. Hide away the darkness until you give in.


You can feel free to disagree and I guess we shall have to leave it at that.

[Dardonas]

False. Gangs and murderers would butcher people in Port just as often, and the rich would scarcely bat an eye. It is why the poor districts are not patrolled - the Gendarme and the nobles care little for the well-being of the poor and open food banks just to make themselves feel better. Murder and death would happen just as often in Port as in Barovia.

You're ignoring the counterpoints already made. Charlotte's Daughters winning the streets over the gangs isn't "deception". It's only deception if they become one of the gangs.

Having regular looking women go around murdering to feed their own needs is exactly the type of deception in Port. Hide away the darkness until you give in.

I do not know what point you are trying to argue.

There isn't a war between monsters and criminals in the Ouvrier and Marchand. There are serial killers and criminals in Port, but they keep a facade that supports the setting. There are vampires in Port that feed on the occasional innocent, commoner or noble. There are Red Widows that lure men to their doom. The occasional death is something that, yes, the nobility overlooks.

There are not, however, routine massacres of these monsters killing swathes of criminals. There are no rampaging grave elementals, no groaning bodak, no fogwardens out rampaging against the lone traveler inside the city. To my understanding, even the commoners don't believe that monsters exist.

So, yes the nobles overlook the occasional killing. But it would be pretty hard for both d'Honaire and his nemesis to overlook routine nightly massacres of their people.

[Madame Trousers Son]

When someone plays an AMPC Red Widow in Port, what's the better reaction?

"Oh, one of those shadowy dangerous women who stalk the Brothel and the dark alleys of the Ouvrier."

or

"Oh, like one of those crazies who slaughters the gangs in the Marchand".

[KovosDatch]

When someone plays an AMPC Red Widow in Port, what's the better reaction?

"Oh, one of those shadowy dangerous women who stalk the Brothel and the dark alleys of the Ouvrier."

or

"Oh, like one of those crazies who slaughters the gangs in the Marchand".

False. Gangs and murderers would butcher people in Port just as often, and the rich would scarcely bat an eye. It is why the poor districts are not patrolled - the Gendarme and the nobles care little for the well-being of the poor and open food banks just to make themselves feel better. Murder and death would happen just as often in Port as in Barovia.

You're ignoring the counterpoints already made. Charlotte's Daughters winning the streets over the gangs isn't "deception". It's only deception if they become one of the gangs.

Having regular looking women go around murdering to feed their own needs is exactly the type of deception in Port. Hide away the darkness until you give in.

I do not know what point you are trying to argue.

There isn't a war between monsters and criminals in the Ouvrier and Marchand. There are serial killers and criminals in Port, but they keep a facade that supports the setting. There are vampires in Port that feed on the occasional innocent, commoner or noble. There are Red Widows that lure men to their doom. The occasional death is something that, yes, the nobility overlooks.

There are not, however, routine massacres of these monsters killing swathes of criminals. There are no rampaging grave elementals, no groaning bodak, no fogwardens out rampaging against the lone traveler inside the city. To my understanding, even the commoners don't believe that monsters exist.

So, yes the nobles overlook the occasional killing. But it would be pretty hard for both d'Honaire and his nemesis to overlook routine nightly massacres of their people.

First, you cannot really compare NPC mobs to A/MPCs. That's like comparing the Vampires in the Tergs with the A/MPCs running around Vallaki. One is preprogrammed and can be overcome easily, one has a story arc and is not often overcome until their timer is up. That is comparing apples and oranges.

Second, the Dark Lords of Dementlieu can throw a hissy fit all they want, but it is the Dark Powers that control the mists and they bring things from one place and put them elsewhere. That is the whole point of 'Prisoners' of the 'Mists.' And out of all the mist spawns in Port right now, I would argue that the Charlotte's Daughters make the *MOST* sense because they *look* like normal women but end up being murderous monsters. Dark Powers do not respect the rules of the Dark Lords nor do they really care what others think. There is some secret lore things I won't get into as to not spoil it, but I know there is an in-game book that talks about the Dark Powers acting like adults who shake infants telling them to stop screaming and not understanding why the infant cries more.

Third, there have been A/MPCs that have stalked Port who have not been Red Widows. I recall hearing of a few vampire classes and I even remember a lich who used the mist spawns to generate RP.

Fourth, the mist spawns are supposed to despawn in the daytime. They do elsewhere on the server. Meaning even if the Dark Lords wanted to do something about it, the mists would whisk their monsters away once more before they could.

Fifth, again, Dementlieu is a high level area and there should be proper challenges to support that. The CR of the widows offers that. It makes people fear the poor areas of the city instead of running through the streets. Which, by the way, people go out at night and murder the thugs that get in their way anyway. The Dark Lords would not tolerate wholesale murder of the thugs, but there have been PCs that do it anyway. What is the difference there?

In the end, I'm not ignoring your counterpoints, but rather making my own to your arguments. And I think I have said my part on this subject.

[Dardonas]

Second, the Dark Lords of Dementlieu can throw a hissy fit all they want, but it is the Dark Powers that control the mists and they bring things from one place and put them elsewhere. That is the whole point of 'Prisoners' of the 'Mists.' And out of all the mist spawns in Port right now, I would argue that the Charlotte's Daughters make the *MOST* sense because they *look* like normal women but end up being murderous monsters. Dark Powers do not respect the rules of the Dark Lords nor do they really care what others think. There is some secret lore things I won't get into as to not spoil it, but I know there is an in-game book that talks about the Dark Powers acting like adults who shake infants telling them to stop screaming and not understanding why the infant cries more.

This isn't how the setting as a whole operates.

Deep lore on the domains of dread, don't click if you don't want it spoiled:

Spoiler: show

Each domain is custom-tailored to each Dark Lord as they are meant to be a personal prison to torment them. Dark Lords see what it is they most desire, but the Dark Powers keep it just out of reach of them as a sort of poetic torment through the various curses they have. They are cursed to try and take what it is they desire, but always end up falling short. The Dark Powers are esoteric beings, but they also have a set structure for how they operate. The Dark Powers just throwing random monsters at Port-a-Lucine just isn't a part of their agenda. They want to torment their subjects in the cruelest way they can.

Also, it is not good to use in-game books as references outside of in-character affairs. The in-game books are written by NPCs who are unreliable narrators and are also just non-credible sources.

[Madame Trousers Son]

1)  Why can't we compare NPCs to AMPCs and how the use of one affects the perception of the other? On the contrary, let's.

Vampire NPCs exist in dungeons or in out-of-the-way Mist locations where they are sufficiently isolated that their appearances can be controlled and bound.

Wererat NPCs do admittedly spawn everywhere, but this is a pretty accepted feature of wererats. The use of Wererat NPCs is thematic.

Red Widows on the other hand are meant to be pretty mysterious and secretive, AFAIK. So we can consider whether the use of Red Widow NPCs works with or against their themes.

2) Handwaving something about the Dark Powers is missing the point here. The Dark Powers are merely the IC reification of OOC DM fiat. Just because the Dark Powers/DMs can do anything does't mean that they should. The real question is: does having a bunch of Red Widow NPCs appear in the middle of the Marchand and decimating the local gangs support the themes of the Red Widows or Dementlieu? In my opinion, without dressing it up in Dementlieu's themes, no, it shouldn't be happening; there's no deception here and IMO it risks spoiling the Red Widow mystery.

3) Sure, mostly vampires, along with the occasional ghoul, mummy, and death knight (Hi Doodles!). By and large, none of these get used in Dementlieu as NPC mobs, so there's no risk of them undermining any of those themes.

4) I think we all acknowledge that their not despawning is a bug. That's not the issue.

5) There are multiple strands to this argument, some of which have already been broached.

 - I think cranking up the NPCs in the Marchand, especially with capabilities like See Invisiblity and better stealth killer capabilities, at least merits discussion. Not all areas of Dementlieu are high level, and Charlotte's Daughters are top level spawns. There's a little nuance at play here. I know plenty of low- to mid- level PCs who used to level themselves fighting in the Marchand at night. Heck, the Dev who created the Charlotte's Daughters used to do this!

 - Even if it's decided that the spawn level is not the issue, there's still the issue of theme; monsters in Dementlieu should be more hidden (see point (2) above); like I said, if we're going to keep the Red Widow spawns in the Marchand, better to dress them up as another gang, rather than show them up as monsters right in the middle of the Marchand.

 - There is a world of difference in Dementlieu between PC Heros/Anti-Heros/Villains going out and killing thugs, and NPC monsters doing the same. When PCs  (or DMs) upset the setting, that's story. When random spawns do it, it's potentially depriving a PC or a DM of the space to do the same.

[herkles]

The issues about Charlotte's daughters deciding to enter the publique and savant will be fixed as will the various spider babies that spawn out of her. Those are bugs and will be solved like EO said.

[PrimetheGrime]

To echo some of the points here, I don't believe that just because port is seen as the high level zone that we need to shove dangerous high level spawns in every nook and cranny. Personally I think the charlottes daughters as a mist spawn enemy might be a waste of their thematics. Ideally, having them only spawn outside of the city / in their dungeon would be ideal.

[Maffa]

Late to the party.

The way I interpreted Mist spawns was that the fabric of the Mists is going awry, and teleports things and stuff from here to there, that's why you find yourself with Lamordian scientists and their creations in the most random places. It's a sign of the End of Times and yadda yadda, more than the will of the Dark Powers.

So if Port has its own Mist leak nearby the Cathedrale, that's what it gets.

Thematically, I can see red widows going out and looking for a snack, especially if they found themselves displaced from a place to another. They are not embedded in Port, they come from somewhere else, and if they manage to survive the night, they possibly will go back there as a new day dawns, with a full belly and a nice tale to tell (MPC background stuff here).

Treating the issue of crossing transitions as a bug, as it should, what's left is a matter of balancing. Are red widows and deadly spiderlings balanced for the place? Should they go and attack all the mobs in the area and spread out like that, chasing people in sneak and see through invisibility?

Personally, I see them a little too tough a bone to chew. I am all for random encounters, i like being surprised and have to improvise on two feet, but not that close to a transition (with the added risk of being ambushed as soon as I come in the new location) and not with the sneaking because that only adds the risk of spreading them around all over the location -if i am hasted and they sneak theyll chase me from transition to transition, I will never be aware of that and I might get inside a location such as the cabaret of any of the shops and warehouses in the marchand, and unwillingly cause a slaughter.

On the other hand, i would love a gang of red widows embedded in the gang milieu of the ouvrier, so at peace with the other bands at night (faction toggle wise i mean) which can be exploited for RP reasons (i can see you all drow PC drooling. stop it. and wipe it, it's disgusting.)