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Author Topic: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand  (Read 1535 times)

Madame Trousers Son

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Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« on: March 04, 2023, 03:19:25 PM »
So I'm thinking that the Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand may be a bit much.

The Quartier Marchand's spawns are mostly relatively mid level, occasionally getting into dangerous multiple Caliban Gangleader levels before; I think the addition of Charlotte's Daughters is something of an escalation, especially because the Shiny Black Spiders default to sneaking AFAIK, which means most people won't see them until they strike.

With the addition of the Cabaret and more Port nightlife, I think this makes it a bit too difficult for lowbie characters to even evade these threats. I guess the addition of the Daughters themselves isn't much of a difference, but the sneaking Spiders are something of a new threat for said lowbies.
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Calad

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2023, 03:38:46 PM »
The daughters are terrifying still because they will see through invisibility and immediately throw daze and such on you, even endangering relatively high level characters. Worst is when these follow after people through transitions and unlike Barovia Port has NPCs out at night, it results in a massacre.

 I'd suggest to at least remove them from the Marchand and contain them in the Ouvrier. It is harder for them to follow someone into the Savant thanks to the gates and being able to escape their FoV, and the night is dangerous enough in the Marchand with the occasional reavers and the constant criminals as is.
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Skelni

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2023, 03:42:01 PM »
Given that there's only two spawn locations for the mists - One within the Ouvrier and one within the Marchand. I'd just let it be as is. You'll avoid those spawns once you find out where they are. And beyond that. We're not suppose to be out at night anyways.
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Calad

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2023, 03:47:48 PM »
Given that there's only two spawn locations for the mists - One within the Ouvrier and one within the Marchand. I'd just let it be as is. You'll avoid those spawns once you find out where they are. And beyond that. We're not suppose to be out at night anyways.


This is not Barovia. People don't go outside fearing criminals maybe, but not monsters. Dementlieuse don't even believe in monsters.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2023, 03:49:50 PM »
To be fair, the axe murderers can also drop decently high level pcs on a crit or two, though the seeing through invisibility thing is indeed quite sticky.

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2023, 03:50:48 PM »
Yes, See Invisi being thrown into the mix is also something new. Though they don't trigger those scripts until they spot a threat, once they're activated, most low levels won't be sneaking past them.


The fact that they cross into the Public and Savant at all is also kind of setting breaking. Gendarme NPCs aren't high enough level to stop these spawns; even just the Shiny Black Spiders will steamroll through.
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Skelni

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2023, 03:54:00 PM »
Given that there's only two spawn locations for the mists - One within the Ouvrier and one within the Marchand. I'd just let it be as is. You'll avoid those spawns once you find out where they are. And beyond that. We're not suppose to be out at night anyways.


This is not Barovia. People don't go outside fearing criminals maybe, but not monsters. Dementlieuse don't even believe in monsters.
Okay sure. But that doesn't mean they don't actually exist in the first place. And beyond that, the daughters are probably one of the more convincing monsters that blend in with society - Which is very fitting for Port.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2023, 03:57:50 PM »
I'll be the devil's advocate. They are mist spawns, which should be very dangerous as per the setting. They are easily avoidable too in general. I would say it's ok to have a little danger at night in Dementlieu!
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apeppertoo

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2023, 04:05:16 PM »


Sorry for the size of the image.

The actual issue, and one that negates many defenses of this spawn, is that they get into combat with the regular NPCs - which is good! - but they wander very far from where they spawn when they do, which is bad. The daughters in this screenshot were actually even closer to the Publique than where I pulled them, here, because they'd slaughtered the regular thugs all the way from the cathedral, down the ramp, to the front of Warehouse 1.

Charlottes Daughters have enough CR to give XP to a level 20. They cannot be slowed, they can cast feeblemind, they can see invisibility. If they're led away by combat they should return afterwards to their mist spawn so that someone just trying to get to, for example, Novak's, or the east gate, can reasonably expect to do so with a modest investment in invisibility or what have you.

Further, if a Daughter is defeated but the resultant spider spawn is not, the spiders will persist past daybreak, in stealth, ready to slaughter NPCs and PCs alike.

My suggestion is to script them to return to their spawn, or alternately create a lesser variant red widow rather than copying the one from the dungeon, as the one from the dungeon is immensely strong compared to other mist spawns. They also probably should not follow targets through transitions.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 04:08:44 PM by apeppertoo »
Mariah Parsons

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2023, 04:30:45 PM »
They are not limited to the mist spawns in Dementileu. They appear near VoB on occasion as well.

Calad

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2023, 04:59:47 PM »
They would be easily avoidable if they did not move. However they catch a whiff of the criminal npcs running around, which triggers their invisibility and see invisibility, then they run after the waifs, cutthroats and so on and disperse out. The NPCs are moving, so they eventually get into each others' FoVs.


If they stayed where they spawn, returned to where they spawn, that would make them easily avoidable, agreed.

I'd just advocate for their removal from the Marchand.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 05:02:09 PM by Calad »
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2023, 05:30:28 PM »
Not to play devil's advocate, but don't the Devs keep telling us D-loo is not a low level area? Higher level areas ought to have higher level challenges.

I personally think their inclusion in the mist spawn makes sense in Port, especially because of the Spider Brothel dungeon.

I disagree with removal, but agree with despawning during the day. But by running around the dangerous, poor, non patrolled areas of Port at night should invite danger, not the opposite.

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2023, 05:36:41 PM »
Not to play devil's advocate, but don't the Devs keep telling us D-loo is not a low level area? Higher level areas ought to have higher level challenges.

I personally think their inclusion in the mist spawn makes sense in Port, especially because of the Spider Brothel dungeon.

I disagree with removal, but agree with despawning during the day. But by running around the dangerous, poor, non patrolled areas of Port at night should invite danger, not the opposite.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2023, 05:37:58 PM »
Not to play devil's advocate, but don't the Devs keep telling us D-loo is not a low level area? Higher level areas ought to have higher level challenges.

I personally think their inclusion in the mist spawn makes sense in Port, especially because of the Spider Brothel dungeon.

I disagree with removal, but agree with despawning during the day. But by running around the dangerous, poor, non patrolled areas of Port at night should invite danger, not the opposite.

Port does not have dangerous monsters openly prowling the streets at night. It's just not in the source books. So while the Devs may say that Port is a high level area, they also say we should follow the source material.

Regardless, I don't think it should be there simply because the Charlottes Daughters are problematic and get brought into the Publique with NPCs and kill the NPCS. I think the mist spawn should be further out in the Marchand if it is there.

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2023, 05:38:59 PM »

Not to play devil's advocate, but don't the Devs keep telling us D-loo is not a low level area? Higher level areas ought to have higher level challenges.

I personally think their inclusion in the mist spawn makes sense in Port, especially because of the Spider Brothel dungeon.

I disagree with removal, but agree with despawning during the day. But by running around the dangerous, poor, non patrolled areas of Port at night should invite danger, not the opposite.

Streets with spiders and mist horrors and random monsters are the opposite of Dementlieu. It's the criminal life that makes it a high level area. It's now a low level area, but these spawns are also not appropriate. Charlotte's Daughters are acceptable, but there are these issues with them.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2023, 05:43:49 PM »
I think it's fair to fix the issue with them persisting during the day.
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Calad

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2023, 05:44:15 PM »
To give a source to what I talk about, Gazetteer III, Dementlieu excerpt.

They are rare. Definitely not appearing every night, at the same place, and widely witnessed...

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Dardonas

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2023, 05:45:47 PM »
The mists don't really care what the setting is when pulling creatures in.

I mean they do, if you read the source material. It's the Dark Powers pulling these creatures in and they have a intentional design for d'Honaire's prison, Dementlieu. It is supposed to be a reflection of the Dark Lord. There are many threats in Dementlieu, and they stick intentionally to the shadows and do not prowl around openly at night slaughtering the Quartier Marchand/Ouvrier like a werewolf in Barovia.

apeppertoo

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2023, 05:46:12 PM »
Not to play devil's advocate, but don't the Devs keep telling us D-loo is not a low level area? Higher level areas ought to have higher level challenges.

I personally think their inclusion in the mist spawn makes sense in Port, especially because of the Spider Brothel dungeon.

I disagree with removal, but agree with despawning during the day. But by running around the dangerous, poor, non patrolled areas of Port at night should invite danger, not the opposite.

It is not a problem that they spawn. It is a problem where they go after spawning, through no player interaction. It is right and appropriate that they'd fight the normal criminals, however I've drawn below a diagram of where they started (southernmost) to where I found them.



Mist spawns typically cut off one way of travel and they can be planned around, but when their spawns spread throughout an entire zone that throws the normal preparations out the window.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2023, 05:48:11 PM »
The mists don't really care what the setting is when pulling creatures in.

I mean they do, if you read the source material. It's the Dark Powers pulling these creatures in and they have a intentional design for d'Honaire's prison, Dementlieu. It is supposed to be a reflection of the Dark Lord. There are many threats in Dementlieu, and they stick intentionally to the shadows and do not prowl around openly at night slaughtering the Quartier Marchand/Ouvrier like a werewolf in Barovia.

This doesn't feel like it's properly reflected across the whole server, then.

Charlottes Daughters are in VoB.
Greater Fog Wardens are in Vallaki.

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2023, 05:53:47 PM »
Not to mention having Lamordian men and crawling claws in Vallaki.

If we want to get to the nitty gritty, the mist spawns don't really care where you are or what you are doing on the server right now.

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2023, 06:01:48 PM »
The point is not whether these spawns are appropriate conceptually, (Charlotte's are fineish... undead and others are not...) but how strong Charlotte's are along with their spiders and how this is causing problems. The whole terraces were dead the other day. I ran into a Charlotte's Daughter and a spider at 8 am in game. They don't stay where they spawn. I also saw them destroying the morning NPCs in the Ouvrier. Also they destroy the criminal NPCs too! And if they have see invis up, which they will because they are triggered by literally anything, you cannot escape them. Low level or high level, not everyone can.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2023, 06:07:56 PM »
Dardonas replied saying it was not thematic and you followed up on it. But alright.

The fix is having them despawn in the day, not removing them. Or if they are removed from the spawn tables in Port, they ought to be removed from the spawn tables everywhere.

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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2023, 06:14:20 PM »
Why? This isn't tit-for-tat, this is in-setting reasoning. Monsters prowl the VoB at night.
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Re: Charlotte's Daughters spawning in the Quartier Marchand
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2023, 06:15:39 PM »
Why? This isn't tit-for-tat, this is in-setting reasoning. Monsters prowl the VoB at night.

Even if we restrict Port night spawns to only things that exist in Port.. Charlotte's Daughters would still make sense.
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