Author Topic: Give voracious a mechanical drawback  (Read 3371 times)

MAB77

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2023, 10:22:05 PM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 11:06:49 PM by MAB77 »
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Darkthrasher

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2023, 01:35:18 AM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.

This is an awesome idea! Huge RP potential
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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2023, 01:49:38 AM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.

If favored souls got this too that be great!

Folly

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2023, 04:27:06 AM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.

Great idea! Implement this yes!

Maffa

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2023, 04:41:48 AM »
wouldnt a normal "bless" on a corpse grant the same effect, rather than having a new spell to memorize for specific purposes?


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Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2023, 04:54:37 AM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.

Would the trigger be picking it up, or attempting to cannibalise it? Would be highly amusing if people got feared for trying to abscond with people's cadavers in their magic bags.

MAB77

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2023, 07:38:50 AM »
wouldnt a normal "bless" on a corpse grant the same effect, rather than having a new spell to memorize for specific purposes?

We're just speculating here as the implementation of this is not a done deal yet, but they would be kept separate spells as per the source material. See them for what they are, different rituals, one a prayer for succor, the other a funeral rite.Bless Burial would not be something you need to memorize ahead of time anyway.

Would the trigger be picking it up, or attempting to cannibalise it? Would be highly amusing if people got feared for trying to abscond with people's cadavers in their magic bags.

The fear effect would not be implemented, too many issues with that. The spell is meant to ward against evil intent, not legitimate attempts to rescue. There is no easy way to go around that with the game engine. It would simply be when the player attempts to cannibalize the corpse. A message would warn the player that something is off with that corpse and they suddenly get entirely repulsed by the idea of eating it. It would still be a compulsory effect (and therefore not affect undead MPCs like ghouls), but roleplay is left at the player's discretion.
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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2023, 11:41:49 AM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.
Love this, and I echo that it'd be cool on Favored Soul!

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2023, 01:02:01 PM »
That would be good for a cleric or FS to have agreed. Adds some extra unique-ness to the classes too since Voodan seems to have nearly all the advantages of cleric and more. Something to put them apart again.

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2023, 06:24:59 PM »
wouldnt a normal "bless" on a corpse grant the same effect, rather than having a new spell to memorize for specific purposes?

I don't think "Bless" has any effect on dead/unconscious things as it affects the morale (courage) of the character and if the character is unconscious or dead it has no morale. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation of this.

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2023, 02:07:51 AM »
The fear effect would not be implemented, too many issues with that. The spell is meant to ward against evil intent, not legitimate attempts to rescue. There is no easy way to go around that with the game engine. It would simply be when the player attempts to cannibalize the corpse. A message would warn the player that something is off with that corpse and they suddenly get entirely repulsed by the idea of eating it. It would still be a compulsory effect (and therefore not affect undead MPCs like ghouls), but roleplay is left at the player's discretion.

I'd argue that the message should show up at the moment of picking up the corpse, as opposed to the moment of actually trying to cannibalize it; that way Voracious characters don't go through the effort of abducting a body, dragging it off to their chosen spot and then find out it's inedible, since their intent is declared at the moment of picking up said corpse. Either a message for anyone picking up a corpse that says 'You sense something off about this body', or the same but exclusively triggered for users with the Voracious feat. Desecration of the remains would occur after the fact of course, if they had the means and intent to do so, but at least being aware that the corpse has been warded seems the most reasonable route.

Maffa

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2023, 03:50:07 AM »
wouldnt a normal "bless" on a corpse grant the same effect, rather than having a new spell to memorize for specific purposes?

I don't think "Bless" has any effect on dead/unconscious things as it affects the morale (courage) of the character and if the character is unconscious or dead it has no morale. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation of this.

A bless is a bless, as a religious rite.

I, for sake of simplicity, would have grouped the two different "blesses" in one spell, the special effect on the corpse being the exception. MAB thinks otherwise, after all all divine spells are prayers and "blesses" of one kind or another. I defer to their experience.


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Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2023, 04:25:46 AM »
A bless is a bless, as a religious rite.

I, for sake of simplicity, would have grouped the two different "blesses" in one spell, the special effect on the corpse being the exception. MAB thinks otherwise, after all all divine spells are prayers and "blesses" of one kind or another. I defer to their experience.

The server's stated development goal is to emulate 3.x as closely as possible. Hence, having Burial Blessing spell be a thing, instead of changing an existing spell to do something it doesn't normally do in 3.x.

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2023, 04:26:52 AM »
I wouldn't mind it, as long as it is dispellable, and useable by Voodans and Favored souls as well.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2023, 04:29:43 AM by Dardonas »

MAB77

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2023, 06:03:08 AM »
The server's stated development goal is to emulate 3.x as closely as possible [...]

[...] within reason. Never leave out that part. Got to consider if triggering a fear effect picking up a corpse is an improvement to the server or not. Anyway, I repeat, it is not a done deal. All options will be considered and it may never happen.
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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2023, 09:29:28 AM »
The server's stated development goal is to emulate 3.x as closely as possible [...]

[...] within reason. Never leave out that part. Got to consider if triggering a fear effect picking up a corpse is an improvement to the server or not. Anyway, I repeat, it is not a done deal. All options will be considered and it may never happen.

Yeah, great affect would be really tricky because you can't know the intent of the person picking up the corpse. I still like the idea of "sanctified" dead. And if you guys find a way to implement that, it'd be great.

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2023, 02:24:55 AM »
[...] within reason. Never leave out that part. Got to consider if triggering a fear effect picking up a corpse is an improvement to the server or not. Anyway, I repeat, it is not a done deal. All options will be considered and it may never happen.

In my opinion, having the fear effect is highly desirable. It doesn't last all that long, it's not the sort of effect that will be actually relevant in a combat scenario and will drive a lot of roleplay responses. The difficult part is determining, from a scripting point of view, what would be the determinant of triggering that fear effect. It's impossible to script a way for the game to determine player intent, such as someone picking up the body to raise it via priest NPC versus picking up the body to run off and have a munch on it or to hide it because it's their personal nemesis or what have you.

Thankfully I'm not in charge of scripting, because my hack'n'eyed solution would be to check the player picking up the body for a series of character traits that provoke that fear check, such as having the Voracious feat, having an AMPC template such as Ghoul or perhaps a subtype like Undead and accept that there will be some scenarios where people must engage with it on faith, such as player characters looking to steal the body away to hide it or use it in other malevolent ways. There's no perfect solution to implementing the fear check, but I still say it's a novel enough, flavoursome spell that the fear component should be included, because it will drive interesting roleplay on occasion and beyond the invested development time, has no negative downsides I can see, depending on how exactly the script is written.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2023, 03:35:34 AM »
Looking forward to this being cast on bodies hidden in ooze city to make unsuspecting would-be heroes flee into the swarms of slime. :3 Supposed to work on anyone trying to disturb the body, for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 03:37:10 AM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2023, 05:35:39 AM »
[...] within reason. Never leave out that part. Got to consider if triggering a fear effect picking up a corpse is an improvement to the server or not. Anyway, I repeat, it is not a done deal. All options will be considered and it may never happen.

In my opinion, having the fear effect is highly desirable. It doesn't last all that long, it's not the sort of effect that will be actually relevant in a combat scenario and will drive a lot of roleplay responses. The difficult part is determining, from a scripting point of view, what would be the determinant of triggering that fear effect. It's impossible to script a way for the game to determine player intent, such as someone picking up the body to raise it via priest NPC versus picking up the body to run off and have a munch on it or to hide it because it's their personal nemesis or what have you.

Thankfully I'm not in charge of scripting, because my hack'n'eyed solution would be to check the player picking up the body for a series of character traits that provoke that fear check, such as having the Voracious feat, having an AMPC template such as Ghoul or perhaps a subtype like Undead and accept that there will be some scenarios where people must engage with it on faith, such as player characters looking to steal the body away to hide it or use it in other malevolent ways. There's no perfect solution to implementing the fear check, but I still say it's a novel enough, flavoursome spell that the fear component should be included, because it will drive interesting roleplay on occasion and beyond the invested development time, has no negative downsides I can see, depending on how exactly the script is written.

If it automatically feared a Voracious haver that would out so many people either with them going "Oh I don't want to touch that body." Or picking it up and getting feared even if they have no Intent and that's impossible to code around so in this situation I think that removing a mechanic that would only lead to being an annoyance and cause issues is the best case scenario.
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MAB77

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2023, 10:15:10 AM »
Looking forward to this being cast on bodies hidden in ooze city to make unsuspecting would-be heroes flee into the swarms of slime. :3 Supposed to work on anyone trying to disturb the body, for whatever reason.

In intent burial blessing is supposed to be applied once a body has been laid to rest in its final resting place. We'll go with the spirit of the rule here, not rule as written. At this time it means not applying the fear effect. We have no desire to see that spell exploited to turn corpses into booby traps.
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Alan Hunter

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2023, 10:29:57 AM »
We have no intent to add a mechanical drawback to voracious. The consequences of getting caught can be dire enough.

However, it's been on my to do list for quite some time now to adapt a variant of the Burial Blessing spell for the game and it would indirectly impact voracious. The spell would protect a corpse from failed resurrections, and, in lieu of the fear effect, would make a corpse unpalatable to those with the voracious feat.

Have to say as a long time Cursed Voracious Character, I'm opposed to this. Was wanting to avoid joining this topic and putting input but as having played Jack Wilson for so long and inducted into Voracious in its early phases a spell to protect from the feat means fewer sources to feed upon when its already challenging to feed upon specific targets or player corpses without penalty. If this spell is enacted a Feat or ability for Voracious characters should be the ability to carry "Rations" of such victims for later consumption as it is already challenging to find sources and abscond with corpses as it is. A fear effect is a powerful effect in the game of Ravenloft and such things could be possibly abused hence why Barbarians don't receive the ability to fear like their NWN Models as it would imbalance the game. Perhaps when consumed the target Voracious character is made sick and instead of receiving a +2 Str/Con they received a -2 Str/Con till they have consumed a proper corpse and amount to repair this debuff as it was blessed/protected. That would seem more reasonable and conceptual to the idea of a warded corpse being trapped or blessed which opposes the sin or evil of the Voracious victim. There's the concern that when Voracious individuals enter places disguised where a corpse used as bait that a fear effect would ultimately be used to be Meta and call them out for being near such a corpse and being unable to control your character when such a scenario occurs given how long fear takes to run its course seems a little unfair mechanical to a pvp interaction especially as it could be treated to similarly leaving traps at a transition or entering an area given the radius of fear affliction. It is in line with ousting rogues out with AOE spells which is frowned upon per the rules in which this would be similar not exactly the same where you might find players leaving trapped corpses of some individual or volunteer friend to be the so call bait or warding device in a camp or role play to randomly out a Voracious character without roleplay.

I hope I haven't come off offensive but for those unfamiliar with Voracious and its draw backs I can attest as a long-time player of it has its ups and downs. Some may argue or rebuttal my view, but I have experienced a lot of controversy with the Feat and difficulties in properly using it. I admit if a Negative or spell is added to oppose a feat that already has significant variable draw backs for a Mere +1 BaB, HP, Fort you might as well an upgrade to Voracious like Ravage that offers an increase in the Buff for a +4 which may be too high so I recommend a +3 Str/Con and with the ability to consume any fallen corpse/schtik of cannibalism with Voracious as a Requirement and a certain amount of evil points designating a DM to enact Dark Power Checks on the individual base on their roleplay which would enforce the use of said feats proper. This is only a recommendation and I hope none one feel I am troubling MABB I simply think the avenue to protecting against Voracious can be done without a Fear effect as that provides too many hurdles for an already challenging feat to work around with.
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MAB77

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2023, 11:04:04 AM »
As I stated, several times by now, it is not the intent to apply a fear effect at this time.

But I entirely believe that protecting corpses from voracious is perfectly legitimate. Could that make it harder for you to feed? Yes, but there is inherently nothing wrong in having you work harder for your meals. That feat is meant to turn PCs into antagonists and to generate in-game conflicts. 

Not all corpses will be blessed, it would still take a conscious act from a PC cleric to bless a corpse. A reverse spell that would desecrate a corpse is also being considered.
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Maiyannah

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2023, 12:23:46 PM »
Voracious is from one of the VRGs to the undead.  It is essentially a track to becoming a ghoul lord.  It should not be easy.  It should involve sacrifice.  It should involve discomfort.  Expecting otherwise is silly.

Quote
There's the concern that when Voracious individuals enter places disguised where a corpse used as bait that a fear effect would ultimately be used to be Meta and call them out for being near such a corpse and being unable to control your character when such a scenario occurs given how long fear takes to run its course seems a little unfair mechanical to a pvp interaction

This sounds like a great RP scene in the waiting, you shouldn't be able to snack without fear.  You should be doing it with fear, in the shadows.

As opposed to you know, openly snacking in the church like the last five voracious characters I've killed.
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Alan Hunter

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2023, 02:03:50 PM »
As I stated, several times by now, it is not the intent to apply a fear effect at this time.

But I entirely believe that protecting corpses from voracious is perfectly legitimate. Could that make it harder for you to feed? Yes, but there is inherently nothing wrong in having you work harder for your meals. That feat is meant to turn PCs into antagonists and to generate in-game conflicts. 

Not all corpses will be blessed, it would still take a conscious act from a PC cleric to bless a corpse. A reverse spell that would desecrate a corpse is also being considered.

Apologies MABB I see where some of your posts have been made. I meant no ill intent. I'm not discouraging that protecting a corpse from this form of attack should be denied but if it is legitimate to offer protection it has to go both ways. Grant us some advantages to this drawback or at least fix some of the more notorious negatives of Voracious to make it worth wild. It is already harder with the, not mentioning people, limitation in the number of sources to feed upon and one source being semi-prohibited due to meta and pvp conflict. I think it's a nifty idea especially given the gothic horror environment but giving voracious anymore draw backs requests that an advantage is also made in kind. There is nothing wrong in making me work harder for my meal but if I'm going to work harder, I expect a little more bang for my buck or I'll find other ways to make it work for me which is the mentality that this may propagate. Simply concern of the abuse such a mechanic would have may offset the community and the mechanics it's a legitimate concern. Whether it is legitimate or not such opinions are important in deciding the factor of implication.  Tic for tac you can't take something without offering something in exchange as that would be unfair in itself. And I'm well aware of the feats ability to make folks into antagonists and generate in game conflict even now Jack Wilson serves a good example in conflicts of other morals but primarily as was mentioned years ago by certain members "It is intended to generate roleplay into the theme of gothic horror" so I ask will it still do that with these kinds of drawbacks or foster a different incentive? And it is good to consider a reverse, anti-uno, to the spell in mention but also consider most Voracious individuals are not magic users so would this ability be readily available in spell form or tonic? Things to consider old friend.

Voracious is from one of the VRGs to the undead.  It is essentially a track to becoming a ghoul lord.  It should not be easy.  It should involve sacrifice.  It should involve discomfort.  Expecting otherwise is silly.

Quote
There's the concern that when Voracious individuals enter places disguised where a corpse used as bait that a fear effect would ultimately be used to be Meta and call them out for being near such a corpse and being unable to control your character when such a scenario occurs given how long fear takes to run its course seems a little unfair mechanical to a pvp interaction

This sounds like a great RP scene in the waiting, you shouldn't be able to snack without fear.  You should be doing it with fear, in the shadows.

As opposed to you know, openly snacking in the church like the last five voracious characters I've killed.

I don't think you have any idea. Have you played one? In my time some of the things you mentioned seem far and inaccessible. It is already not an easy thing to roleplay or interact with as many unfamiliar of the mechanics will suffer from trial and error which exposes them far more easily than many may think. You already sacrifice a feat to obtain this ability hopefully well knowing that your alignment will change drastically as well as your roleplay and character concept and mechanically you lose the advantage many have of eating, resting, and regain hp unlike a Voracious character and even then, there is a limit to how many you can eat before you gain no further benefit or nutrition or hp back granted there are some work arounds but that is something often discovered or passed down in which folks need to find out on their own or find a mentor. It's silly to think that your view of thinking of others expecting otherwise to be silly if you yourself have not experienced it or partaken in it. Now I don't personally know you to judge but to think expecting otherwise is silly is limiting the avenue of role play that can be represented to this feat and the experience others have had with its involvement to be silly.

It's just my opinion but I think you underestimate the value of the concern of what I was representing. It's a great scene if both parties comply and enjoy as we both enjoy tea, but you can't force someone to have tea if they do not enjoy it. A force mechanic is not an enjoyable thing much how have others discouraged other similar circumstances with classes and abilities to not be taken advantage of did not enjoy their limitations or changes. Fear in itself is not alone in the shadows this is a gothic horror, and some fears are quite open and visible less you haven't travel to Port Lucine and understand that concept. Those who openly "Snack" soon finds themselves caught or in trouble very quickly. It takes some consideration in the action especially with a player corpse being involved and not knowing that there are other bodies to feed upon. And I do believe in the past, I might be mistaken it's been a while since, that snacking on player corpses is prohibit, bad form, and disallowed due to the escalation of pvp rulings as a force "Oped In". So, considering that making it hard to feed to gain your buff and perks makes the feat less enticing and pushes it into the window of other feats that are given less regard due to its inevitable hassle. It's challenging enough to pre-op into Voracious not knowing you are opted-in as semi bad guy and many heroic types are quick to kill rather than understand the conveyable nature of the victim afflicted with the feat. Some are not downright evil some are victims of starvations and/or curses the roleplay opportunity for this origin to this feat has many avenues that can be convey and viewed with the right concept and skill. Denying the evidence in that regards is silly in itself.

And congratulations for your easy kill count Hero. Try the next level and attempt at a real PC and NPC of Vorcious. Though those hellion days are gone that I'm aware of. The church example is rather crude as many are inexperience to the wealth of knowledge a veteran voracious character has or simply do not care enough to consider or further their concept of character does not care as some alien races see such an act as normal as they live different lives to the common. Also consider the Church of the Morning Lord is seldom protected or cared for and houses a series of outcasts who intentionally break their rules and the laws in there isn't the greatest example. So no, I disagree but that's just my opinion.

You shouldn't be able to be heroic so easily due to a mechanical advantage as that would come off exploitative and similar in using mechanics to determine a result or battle that can be abused. It's a genuine concern and as opposed to just going with the masses I stated in the past that Voracious should also be considered for mechanical enhancement given the nature of roleplay and the mechanics involved into it. I like folks to consider if a Drawback is needed so does it deserve further consideration for Advantages for those willing to risk this route. Frankly there are many avenues with this Feat and the roleplay it has generated is substantial. I think it's only fair to consider both views and avenues in how far this feat will go.
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Maiyannah

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Re: Give voracious a mechanical drawback
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2023, 02:29:57 PM »
You can probably find more compelling ways to make your argument than to make personal attacks against your detractors, and even moreso then by dismissing their lived experiences.  I have had one (1) character I have interacted with which I know to have the Voracious feat that significantly roleplayed it; most experiences I have had with them have been minimal or no-RP characters who are just taking it for a mechanical advantage, often wanting and asking for the social consequences to be forgiven or ignored.  I do not find it in myself to ignore them, especially when I am playing a paladin.

Also, complaining that a curse is difficult and unpleasant to me sounds like a curse is being exactly what it should be.  I mean, you're not going to have it both ways: it's either a significant impediment and thus a grand trial, or it's a trifling thing that barely inconviences you and therefore isn't worthy of being a character beat.

It is only natural, especially given the environment on the server, that people are going to find means to protect corpses they care about from such fates, and while you might not like that, this is one of the drawbacks of taking on a deliberately antagonistic character feat.  It exists to make you antagonistic.  That is its purpose.  And it's fulfilling that purpose just fine.  Making the conflict less assymetric is not a bad thing either.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 02:32:01 PM by Maiyannah »
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