Black Watch Encampment - Feedback Thread

[Dread]

It's finally finished, thanks in no small part due to help from both Herkles in finishing it and in CosmicRay for advice and the starting of area design.

Share your thoughts below.

[Dardonas]

From my first clear today, which seemed to be max spawn:

I think all enemies need mind immunity and the bosses (lieutenants and other bigwigs at the end) need knockdown immunity, as well as some minor resistances (5 elemental). They felt trivial when they were completely stunned to something like Storm of Vengeance. I also think the bosses (again, lieutenants not every basic caster) should have access to Timestop. Not all enemies need it or it becomes a meme like Perfidus, but having pressure to go after the casters or they buff their allies is a big thing.

The howl for the wolves was too low of a DC. I feel you could go there pretty easily without a mindblank.

Loot is probably where it should be in terms of value dropped, but the sample size I have to go by is much to small.

[Komuccap]

It did not feel rewarding to explore the whole area, because most of the treasure was located in two particular rooms, which will most likely motivate parties to skip half of the dungeon.
I do not believe it is necessary to grant all enemies immunity to mind affecting spells, they felt trivial because our group consisted of at least four level eighteen and highter characters. Perhaps experience rewards should be toned down a little to discourage high level parties from visiting it too often. Although adding some immunities for leutenants would be a good idea.
Some of the areas outside the caverns have pathing issues, especially the elevation.

[Maffa]

havent been there yet but if i can give a suggestion, slow down with the immunities... char 18+ are somehow allowed to have it easy, or better to have a solution for some problem.... if there are immunities it means the only way to get by is fighting, which makes it a bland solution.

[bloodless]

havent been there yet but if i can give a suggestion, slow down with the immunities... char 18+ are somehow allowed to have it easy, or better to have a solution for some problem.... if there are immunities it means the only way to get by is fighting, which makes it a bland solution.

It's an end game dungeon, so I disagree on having it easy here. With that said, I don't think immunities are the answer either. Higher saves, if there's some particular effect that makes it trivial, but a blanket immunity just rules out a swathe of options groups could try.

[Wilkins1952]

Yeah I am okay with stuff not being immune, Part of the fun is to be able to have more than one way to challenge a dungeon rather than be limited to just "Ward and hit stuff." Which already you are limited to with a lot of end game dungeons.

[Maffa]

havent been there yet but if i can give a suggestion, slow down with the immunities... char 18+ are somehow allowed to have it easy, or better to have a solution for some problem.... if there are immunities it means the only way to get by is fighting, which makes it a bland solution.

It's an end game dungeon, so I disagree on having it easy here. With that said, I don't think immunities are the answer either. Higher saves, if there's some particular effect that makes it trivial, but a blanket immunity just rules out a swathe of options groups could try.

you said it better than I did!

what I meant is that when immunities are just given out it's like saying "Congratulations on gaining this cool thing! now i wont let you use it anywhere tho cos it's too cool"

[Dardonas]

They should have immunities based on the lore of the dungeon and the fact that it is supposed to be a dungeon equivalent or as strong as Sithicus dungeons. They aren’t like our characters. I won’t provide spoilers on the dungeon but if you read the journal entries you’ll understand why.

Edit: I don't mind the lower level enemies not having immunities if they had higher saves so that they did not get instantly stunned by things like Storm of Vengeance.

[Komuccap]

Storm of vengeance is a spell of 9'th level circle, it meant to stun lower level enemies if they fail the reflex save. What is the point of having it in the game if it will not fulfill it's purpose?

[Dardonas]

Storm of vengeance is a spell of 9'th level circle, it meant to stun lower level enemies if they fail the reflex save. What is the point of having it in the game if it will not fulfill it's purpose?

It fulfills its purpose in areas where it makes sense for it to fulfill it. Trolls, Naillat, and Markovia are good examples of where it works fine. But it really should not work as well as it does in a high-tier dungeon where the enemies should be similar to how they act in Perfidus.

We nerfed Black Blade of Disaster expressly because it was a mechanic that trivialized content like the Salt Mines.

[Komuccap]

It fulfills its purpose in areas where it makes sense for it to fulfill it. Trolls, Naillat, and Markovia are good examples of where it works fine. But it really should not work as well as it does in a high-tier dungeon where the enemies should be similar to how they act in Perfidus.

But 99% of the enemies in Perfidus are vulnerable to Storm of Vengeance spell, which is somewhat fair, because one has to position it correctly and it can be dispelled pretty much instantly. Perhaps that is the issue with the creatures in the dungeon, that even casters there cannot cast dispel?

[Dardonas]

It fulfills its purpose in areas where it makes sense for it to fulfill it. Trolls, Naillat, and Markovia are good examples of where it works fine. But it really should not work as well as it does in a high-tier dungeon where the enemies should be similar to how they act in Perfidus.

But 99% of the enemies in Perfidus are vulnerable to Storm of Vengeance spell, which is somewhat fair, because one has to position it correctly and it can be dispelled pretty much instantly. Perhaps that is the issue with the creatures in the dungeon, that even casters there cannot cast dispel?

I wouldn't say all the enemies are vulnerable to Storm of Vengeance in Perfidus. The fanatics are mind immune and have high spell resistance, the casters have high saves and cast Protection from Spells and Mind Blank during their Time Stop rotation. The fiendish aberrations are vulnerable to it, but those are cannon fodder more than anything.

Malthor is scary with Epic Warding up, and so is the True Demonologist.

If not immunities, there needs to be some more "ooomph" from some of the enemies to make it feel like a higher-tier dungeon.

Edit: Though, I do think with the lore behind the dungeon mind immunity and knockdown immunity should be granted to at least the lieutenants and the bosses.

[Komuccap]

Edit: Though, I do think with the lore behind the dungeon mind immunity and knockdown immunity should be granted to at least the lieutenants and the bosses.

I would agree on that, the bosses were somewhat underwhelming compared to Malthor or the Sleeping King.

[Favee]

I feel like bosses in all the high end dungeons need a touch of unfair mechanics tacked on.  Its more fun when they "cheat."

Examples below (spoilers.)

Spoiler: show

The Sleeping King often tucks people into bed and kisses them goodnight with the instant kill criticals.

Another boss has the Epic Dodge feat, negating the first confirmed hit from each player automatically.

Malthor has his warding and mages nearby.

I'd consider giving the end boss knockdown immunity.  Maybe some extra "oomph"  like a few black blades of disaster to come fight alongside them. Let them cheat a bit.

[bloodless]

Okay so having ran it now once... Length-wise it doesn't overstay its welcome even when taking it at RP pace (2ish hours minus the trip back). Our group was fairly rag-tag but the two high level enchanted martials cleaned house without having to resort to any outside the box tactics. That said, considering how the casters work, the challenge can definitely sneak up on you. Nasty spell selection. I personally found it to be decently well balanced, and the opportunity is there to play around. I can easily see it tweaked to be a little harder than it is now and still falling in a good place in terms of challenge vs reward. The overall loot value seemed good, though the generation wasn't great.

Spoiler: show

Those are teleport bolts, aren't they?

[Grime81]

I think adding some mechanic could spice up the dungeon, instead of giving all enemies immunity (taking away mechanics) I would suggest adding one like for example placing a crystal in certain rooms that give enemies in that room immunity (to mind effecting or KD) until broken, also maybe adding key locked doors to prevent skipping sections, like for example the key in the commode in the Ghastrian church ruins, this is a good design IMHO, a little back tracking (not too much). Just my two cents as I found the play a little boring in the Blackwatch dungeon but the atmosphere very cool. Also perhaps adding something to the underwater portion, a small rest safe hidden room or some such thing to make it worth going that route.

[Savras]

From my first clear today, which seemed to be max spawn:

I think all enemies need mind immunity and the bosses (lieutenants and other bigwigs at the end) need knockdown immunity, as well as some minor resistances (5 elemental). They felt trivial when they were completely stunned to something like Storm of Vengeance. I also think the bosses (again, lieutenants not every basic caster) should have access to Timestop. Not all enemies need it or it becomes a meme like Perfidus, but having pressure to go after the casters or they buff their allies is a big thing.

The howl for the wolves was too low of a DC. I feel you could go there pretty easily without a mindblank.

Loot is probably where it should be in terms of value dropped, but the sample size I have to go by is much to small.

I feel timestop needs to be more limited of a something. From an RP point of view it's one of the ultimate forms of magic. I'd wager quickened spell casting might be better or just perma-haste. Also if it's anything like perf in afew rooms where 3 casters just cast it..Well, i've gone and gotten a drink before that is normally done sometimes.

[Dardonas]

From my first clear today, which seemed to be max spawn:

I think all enemies need mind immunity and the bosses (lieutenants and other bigwigs at the end) need knockdown immunity, as well as some minor resistances (5 elemental). They felt trivial when they were completely stunned to something like Storm of Vengeance. I also think the bosses (again, lieutenants not every basic caster) should have access to Timestop. Not all enemies need it or it becomes a meme like Perfidus, but having pressure to go after the casters or they buff their allies is a big thing.

The howl for the wolves was too low of a DC. I feel you could go there pretty easily without a mindblank.

Loot is probably where it should be in terms of value dropped, but the sample size I have to go by is much to small.

I feel timestop needs to be more limited of a something. From an RP point of view it's one of the ultimate forms of magic. I'd wager quickened spell casting might be better or just perma-haste. Also if it's anything like perf in afew rooms where 3 casters just cast it..Well, i've gone and gotten a drink before that is normally done sometimes.

Well if you've been in the dungeon, you know that there are only three Lieutenants and the boss, which are the only ones that I was suggesting have the spell. Each of these enemies are in their own separate area. So it would not be like Perfidus with eight Time Stops in one encounter, and Time Stops in every room leading up to it.

[DoctorLuxo]

So as far as I understand basically every single enemy except the hounds have improved evasion and mettle. Which means that every spell is basically useless except acid fog, incendiary cloud, orb of force (and such) and ice storm. There is no point in using spell slots except for those spells or to ward others. If they were to have mind immunity you would basically have only one approach: stat check the enemies or die. Or fogs. Actually I think that they should have more vulnerabilities as for now there's basically only one way to tackle this dungeon.

[FunkeyMonkey]

I like that you have two entrances.
I'd say their ranged damage and wolf howl could be upped.
Wolves could have high spot/listen to deter sneaks and be placed around loot areas.
The lieutenants could use a bit of beefing as well, only found one to be a challenge.
Herbs could be added to the area, I get that it's detailing and is no rush.
The loot could be spread and lieutenant's could drop items or keys to chests.

Great work, love the setting.

[HM01]

Just wanted to say I like this dungeon, I'm a fan of the length and layout ~ feels lengthy but not in a burdensome way. Most of the criticisms so far seem to be about people finding their high level magic to be too powerful, to which I would disagree and say it is fine. I would pimp the archers AB a bit if you wanted to add more spicy sauce to it.

Does look like some enemies can spawn into unreachable areas near the boss (love her).




All in all, super fun dungeon. Great job!

[noah25]

Very cool feel to it. I would make two suggestions in terms of making the challenge more appropriate to what I feel was intended:

1) Especially in the big rooms spread the casters out. The two times I have been we have been able to close on them so quickly they are irrelevant. Putting more space between them would increase the chance one gets the chance to cause problems.

2) Make one of the variants sneakier. Felt like a pretty safe dungeon to be the caster. Would love the feeling of getting stabbed in the back if you don't have a good spotter.

[gotesu]

An amazing dungeon! got one suggestion concerning the domination at the last room

Got hit by the domination, which caused my PC to randomly change equipment (also resulting in dropping equipment because of inventory mess) and messed the action queue even after the effect wore off to a point where I couldn't do anything with the pc even after it was no longer dominated.

Wanted to suggest replacing it with a stun effect, since the domination effect doesnt actually make you fight your allies anyways and it's extremely buggy.