Author Topic: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip  (Read 1605 times)

Vantes-

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2023, 12:44:19 PM »
I'm in favor of removing skillbanking, but it is a nerf. We can dress it up as much as we want, but it lowers the power of a number of builds that make use of it, which is a nerf.

But that's okay!
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Anastian

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2023, 12:45:49 PM »
As an avid user of UMD (love the flexibility it gives) I would rather propose a different approach to the problem.

UMD is powerful because it lets you use scrolls (access to buffs and spells on classes that shouldn't use them) and equip gear you shouldn't be able to equip (alignment restriction, class restriction).

Scrolls: they are a relevant money investment, for sub-par spells (low DCs for offensive, limited duration for other scrolls) and they are janky to use in any heated situation unless you plan carefully (i.e. buff before engaging). Arguably, loads of potions and other consumables can help you achieve the same result in most situations. Hence I do not believe touching scrolls per se, which also have a high chance to fail without relevant investment in UMD, would be necessary. Keep them as it is.

Alignment restriction/class restriction: starting from the idea I think this is a non-issue as for most powerful items you need, again, relevant UMD scores to be able to wear them, probably people think that it gives too much versatility in equipping different items that you shouldn't be wearing. You would be able to equip them with the right alignment, so alignment restriction is not really a factor here. Class restricted items are the real issue.

Considering this, why not placing a maximum budget of class restricted equipment one can wear, tied to UMD scores? This way you could access only a limited amount of gear at the same time (based on item value), instead of being able to equip everything at once.

This said I still think any UMD buff would warrant a rogue buff for higher level rogues (6-8+?) To compensate for the hit they would take. Rogues are all about flexibility, and UMD nerfs remove flexibility from those who invested heavily in a rogue build. But this is likely a different topic.

Just to understand @Madame, do you have examples of situations where UMD usage gave unfair advantages to some classes? I would try to bind these situations to real cases rather than hypotheses as sure, UMD is a very good skill, but it's not something that gives an absurd edge in my opinion. Not when casters can use ninth level spells without DP checks


@MAB (edit) in a previous RL server I played into there was a single script that gave you a non droppable curse item that cyclically gave you -2 to a stat, randomly, until you got rid of it at a holy place. Just a cool idea on cursed items.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 12:49:02 PM by Anastian »
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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2023, 12:49:36 PM »
UMD is all that some classes have to be able to perform independently, making it less effective will only further weaken mundane builds in a server mostly populated with magical multiclass builds.

I don’t see an issue with the way things are currently, but that’s just my opinion.

MAB77

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2023, 01:19:23 PM »
I'm in favor of removing skillbanking, but it is a nerf. We can dress it up as much as we want, but it lowers the power of a number of builds that make use of it, which is a nerf.

But that's okay!

We can argue semantic on the meaning of nerf back and forth all you want, but the fact remains, skill banking is a tolerated exploit. Exploit as in something you should not be able to do according to the source material, but end up being able to do because of game engine limitations. Tolerated because we have no easy way to monitor or address the issue at this time and that DMs have more important things to do than manually check your character sheet to make sure you invest your points properly.

As I said, we have no plans to address that at this time, in all likelihood it will remain in place until the very end, but we do reserve ourselves the right to fix all exploits at any time (freedom of movement being an example of that).
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yinyang

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2023, 01:21:07 PM »
I'm in favor of removing skillbanking, but it is a nerf. We can dress it up as much as we want, but it lowers the power of a number of builds that make use of it, which is a nerf.

But that's okay!

100% agree. +1 in favor of removing skillbanking! Or at least lowering it. I've seen other servers do it and I think it's healthy.
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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2023, 03:22:52 PM »
I don't advocate tinkering with UMD specifically.  Those classes that absolutely need it have it as a class skill and generally max it out on level up anyway.  The part I disfavor are the token dips coupled with skill banking to give high skills (whether that be UMD or any other skill) for builds that ordinarily would not have them.  A relevel for folks that have already done their min/max wouldn't be needed.  The only relevels would be for characters that currently have an unspent skill bank.  But this is likely a lot of work, that folks probably don't want to deal with.  It is still a good idea though.


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yinyang

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2023, 03:28:47 PM »
I don't advocate tinkering with UMD specifically.  Those classes that absolutely need it have it as a class skill and generally max it out on level up anyway.  The part I disfavor are the token dips coupled with skill banking to give high skills (whether that be UMD or any other skill) for builds that ordinarily would not have them.  A relevel for folks that have already done their min/max wouldn't be needed.  The only relevels would be for characters that currently have an unspent skill bank.  But this is likely a lot of work, that folks probably don't want to deal with.  It is still a good idea though.

I'm not very good at mechanics but I *think* that many builds would inherently be impossible without skill banking. IE those token dips.
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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2023, 04:00:55 PM »
Another option is to remove class restrictions from as many items as possible, which will lower the powercurve for UMD. Something has to change, the UMD and multiclass drip is going to continue to tip the scales to be more imbalanced as time goes on.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 04:04:13 PM by Gmno »
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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2023, 04:39:09 PM »
Again, please, bring up examples of this imbalance for discussion. I don't really see any that would apply to PvP or DM situations as in those situation it's all about preparation, and UMD cannot help you in the heat of things, not too much at least.
PvE wise? Casters can solo. As Edward was mentioning, UMD is likely the only tool enabling some mundane classes (I will underline it again, rogues) to do something at all. Don't want to sound like a broken record but until real cases are brought up I really can't be convinced toward UMD being exaggerated as a skill.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2023, 05:35:03 PM »
For people that begin the game with 2 rogue before moving into other classes that require non-rogue skills, there's going to be a lot of forced spend into points they don't want, probably losing the capacity for a skill or two. Kind of sucks honestly, but they have pre-investment and 11 points per future rogue lvl after human/14int /16int etc so it doesnt harm them if they stagger rogue every 5 levels (which is what they tend to do) so it's kind of meh to mess with it. It's not affecting total tumble/umd.

Also not the main post of the thread so I'll disregard it. If the relevels happen i'm going 4 rogue 13 fighter instead of 9 rogue 4 barb 4 fighter though. :3 missed out on the combat forms when they were introduced.

~~~

If there's new magic items you want to add to the game that have curse effects added on equip, just propose them in the item board with those curse effects. Write the onequip code to go with it, you can appropriate the nasher equipment scripts from HotU to see how it works and run your own conditionals.

There's no broken magical equipment with UMD restrictions that warrant cursing "right now", but if you have ideas for future items so there's no retroactive work required, that item request thread is always open.

myrddraal

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2023, 05:41:38 PM »
That would indeed be a free relevel for everyone. That would also render a lot of multiclass built less effective. Gotta be careful of the side effects. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in favor of it, but there would be a lot of disgruntled players too.

Multiclass exists because it is effective and helps to play the game. Simply as that. The game is challenging and having a full rogue (trapslave) is worse than having a beguiler (who does traps and some wards) or a ftr/rogue (who can frontline and do traps).

Disabling skill banking would simply render some builds unplayable, consequently making harder to put on a group together.This game gave me thousands of hours of fun moments. "We need a trapper and a warder." repeated for an hour again and again is not one of those.

Also, begging the pardon for beint bitter, the nerf-x threads are on a never seem high lately.

Being a little more on topic, but not much, I'd love to see cursed itens. REALLY cursed itens. Like, oh, you thought this was a ring of the arcane mind? Now you're stuck with it and has -1 int.

Multi classing wouldnt be broken, builds would just need to be optimized differently.  Want to be a rogue fighter?  Going to maybe not grab tumble AND umd AND OL AND disarm trap AND detection because your fighter skills would be higher (like concentration and antagonize).  Does this RUIN builds?  No.  It just changes them.  Pure classes are strong enough to stand on their own.  A lot of the missing skillpoints for OL and remove trap are also alleviated by the new crafted gear which, once you enchant, is pretty sick.

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2023, 06:29:42 PM »
Again, please, bring up examples of this imbalance for discussion. I don't really see any that would apply to PvP or DM situations as in those situation it's all about preparation, and UMD cannot help you in the heat of things, not too much at least.
PvE wise? Casters can solo. As Edward was mentioning, UMD is likely the only tool enabling some mundane classes (I will underline it again, rogues) to do something at all. Don't want to sound like a broken record but until real cases are brought up I really can't be convinced toward UMD being exaggerated as a skill.

I've already addressed my main issues with the balance in my first post; multi-classing in DnD nets you less XP and NwN wasn't intended with the current skill banking. These are design decisions made by the team and will have unknown effects with the introduction of new classes and loot. While it might not seem large a huge gap to you now, this could compound to a worst problem in the future. My concerns are mostly towards multi-classing rather than just UMD, but the combination is still incredibly potent and I feel its being undervalued.

If you want my thoughts on how powerful UMD is, I'd have to be allowed to list every questionable item I've seen. Honestly, I think we'd have a more constructive conversation in private because I wasn't advocating for nerfs.
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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2023, 07:43:33 PM »
Back on OPs topic, I actually like the idea of *some* few items being 'cursed' so only certain classes can wield it. We'd have to take a look at what items deserve that treatment, but if we kept to to say the very rare items I think that would be both fair and interesting.

myrddraal

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2023, 07:50:10 PM »
Back on OPs topic, I actually like the idea of *some* few items being 'cursed' so only certain classes can wield it. We'd have to take a look at what items deserve that treatment, but if we kept to to say the very rare items I think that would be both fair and interesting.

Idk about nullifying the bonus to it, but adding a differnt debuff to non specific classes in the case of particularly powerful gear might be  fun.

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2023, 07:50:27 PM »
Yeah, whenever someone suggests an interesting item but people say, "We can't have that, it's too good for UMD classes", that's when I think that idea would add value to the server.
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myrddraal

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2023, 07:52:46 PM »
Yeah, whenever someone suggests an interesting item but people say, "We can't have that, it's too good for UMD classes", that's when I think that idea would add value to the server.

Alternatively, the item value could just be raised to a spot where it would be unable to be used through UMD.  The value of the item also increases the DC of the UMD check.

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2023, 07:58:50 PM »
Alternatively, the item value could just be raised to a spot where it would be unable to be used through UMD.  The value of the item also increases the DC of the UMD check.

That would affect loot tables too, though, wouldn't it? Might not work as a general solution...
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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2023, 08:22:34 PM »
The biggest problem right now is how the game engine works to handle items. It's not something we can change.  To make cursed items viable, we'd have to remove any identifying spells and the lore skill. Otherwise cursed items would be too easily identifiable and just sold for gold.
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EarlofEtheria

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2023, 08:58:01 PM »
The biggest problem right now is how the game engine works to handle items. It's not something we can change.  To make cursed items viable, we'd have to remove any identifying spells and the lore skill. Otherwise cursed items would be too easily identifiable and just sold for gold.

Would it be possible to replace certain item's Class/Alignment restrictions, instead applying a curse which can be UMD'd around if one doesn't fit the Hidden Alignment Requirement of say Evil?

An item cursed this way would technically have more value than one which cannot be equipped period, without the use of UMD.


PS: I also have dreams of all weapons being equipable through a generic Weapon Proficiency feat, given to all classes, applying the -4 attack rating to all weapons besides those with taken feats.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 09:05:29 PM by EarlofEtheria »

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2023, 03:34:56 AM »
I always found profoundly silly and gamey the fact that you arent allowed equipping items you are not proficient to. Alignment based items i might understand, you get fed such weird and "off" vibes from a wrong align item that you simply *can't*. But a sword is a sword: how are you going to not handle it correctly? Just pick it from the side it doesnt cut your hands... if it's a weight/min strength requirement i could understand, you simply cant lift the thing, but a proficiency? I believe maluses can be applied so that reflects the fact that you aren't trained to use the weapon proficiently as is, and possibly circumvent that with magic (because that's what magic does)

On the contrary, going back to the case of the beguilers and rogues, highly specialized items such as thieving tools and other complicated items of gnomish nature should be either linked to a minimum skill level in order to be operated.

This said, we could just concentrate all this to a skill that I would call... uh... Use Mysterious Device, or UMD.


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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2023, 04:59:50 AM »
About this thread's original topic...

If an item is so strong that we would not want it to be 'exploitable' by UMD, wouldn't it be too strong to be added in the first place?

I also see a problem in making certain powerful items one class only. It would end up railroading popular builds even further with players giving advice like, "You don't need to spend a feat slot on that!/Spend so many skill points. Your class has a bunch of super strong gear that will do it for you!"

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2023, 08:52:39 AM »
I don't really see the problem with UMD. If an item is good for a particular class or multiclass, but it would make unintended builds broken then just have the UMD requirements like 90+. Or at least I think that it is possible to mod that into an item regardless of its value.

Regarding skill banking I am fine with just removing it. That's a great balance move as that would make rogue more appealing, not just a way to get tumble (and many other skills).
In certain cases it's even a only 1/2 level dip. And it would get out of the way the cookie-cutter builds that are great at almost everything.
I also think that skills, stats and feats should reflect who the character is: doesn't make much sense to barely learn any skills when you level up. Again, just my opinion.

Quote
I always found profoundly silly and gamey the fact that you aren't allowed equipping items you are not proficient to.

Also that. If I want to get food poisoning from a random unidentified potion I find in the sewers, why can't I do that?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 09:08:42 AM by DoctorLuxo »

myrddraal

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2023, 11:12:17 AM »
About this thread's original topic...

If an item is so strong that we would not want it to be 'exploitable' by UMD, wouldn't it be too strong to be added in the first place?

I also see a problem in making certain powerful items one class only. It would end up railroading popular builds even further with players giving advice like, "You don't need to spend a feat slot on that!/Spend so many skill points. Your class has a bunch of super strong gear that will do it for you!"

I wouldnt say that.  Powerful class specific items help balance some mechanically weaker or less appealing classes.  Crypt raider lock picks for example.  (Granted every rogue has the UMD to use them anyway but you get my point.)

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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2023, 12:34:28 PM »
Regarding the original post, it seems the intent was to have items that UMD would not be able to exploit.  But the answer to that is not in the items, but more in how UMD is used.  And specifically not in UMD itself as a class skill, but in players that do a cheese dip and skill bank just to max out UMD with the minimum of investment.  Thus, skill banking is the primary culprit.  A pure rogue build or a pure bard build will never be hurt by stopping skill banking (in fact, they would probably be strengthened as a "pure" UMD class).  A multiclass build that actually invests significant levels (not just the minimum of 5) in a UMD class would not be affected much either -- I can't imagine taking seriously any bellyaching over not being able to cast 9th level scrolls just because you didn't take enough bard or rogue levels to max your UMD.  A UMD multiclass that can roll up with a midrange spell selection at their disposal is probably doing just fine.  Skill banking also makes straight class rogues and bards more valuable for other reasons as well (no more skill banking open lock, disable trap, perform, or other class specific skills just to help folks operate independently of parties)

Old characters that have min/maxed will eventually age out and get closured or shelved by their owners, so no releveling would be needed for them (let them keep their cheese until they die), only for folks with an existing unspent skill bank.  Doing the relevels will be a pain in the you-know-what for a hot minute, but once that band-aid is ripped off, you don't have to deal with it again.  Making skill banking caps a prospective change is something that should be seriously considered by the community.  Give everyone sufficient advance notice of the effective date of the change, so they have time to either spend their skill bank or sketch out their re-build, then do it.

P.S. in the interests of full disclosure, I almost never multiclass my characters.  I have only done it once, for a PrC (which was fun while it lasted), but I likely won't ever do it again.  On a server capped at level 20, I don't think the investment is worth the reward compared to straight classing any of the traditional base classes.


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Re: Conditional curses on items on Item Equip
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2023, 08:50:53 PM »
I would love more consequences for various items, beyond the mechanical malluses. I believe the Shadow Strike shortswords have a draining effect on ones persona, if used too long. I'd like more like that.