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Author Topic: Droppable treasure keys  (Read 1255 times)

cooachlyfe

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2023, 12:57:27 AM »

Quoting this so the people who continue to think ninjalooting on the server is somehow evil and willfully misconstrue how it works so that they actually read the damn post and understand their complaints are flat out based on utter nonsense.

It partly gets a bad rap because there are ninja looters who don't take care to denote their occupance of a dungeon and a group goes in and then finds the loot missing.

I would agree with this though, it would be nice if a ninjalooter could put some sort of 'tell' that a dungeon is currently or has been ninjalooted recently.

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2023, 01:00:24 AM »
It partly gets a bad rap because there are ninja looters who don't take care to denote their occupance of a dungeon and a group goes in and then finds the loot missing.

This is in such an extreme minority of cases that it barely warrants mentioning; back when I was seriously devoted to ninja looting every single dungeon in all of Barovia like clockwork with every reset, I had one occasion where I came out of the Terg Ruins with all the loot and found a party present, about to dip in. I told them to wait fifteen minutes, handed them a few choice items and went on my way; when I was actively doing this, I left a note outside the entrance of every dungeon I was actively looting, serving as a warning, solely as a courtesy. This what-if scenario of ninja looting denying other groups their valuables is not only infrequent, it's also pointedly entitled in nature. No party is entitled to the gains of any given dungeon. There have been numerous times where a party will set out to a given dungeon, only to find it's been cleared ahead of them by other players. This incident, compared to that of arriving in the wake of a ninja looter, is taken largely with grace and acceptance, followed by seeking a different dungeon to delve in it's place.

Players meanwhile will ascribe motive to the ninja looter that got to the goods before them as bearing some particular malicious intent; as if they are a shadowy figure lurking nearby waiting to overhear people will be going to a specific dungeon, just so they can get ahead of them and 'steal' what they believe is rightfully theirs. In the case of a second party clearing a dungeon, that's it. It's done, go home or find a different venue. There's no possibility of getting anything out of it anymore. In the case of a ninja looter, waiting a quarter of an hour will reset all the loot within, while also not depriving the party of the XP which is arguably the larger prize to be had. Ninja looting provides a secondary pipeline of valuables to the player market, but instead of being praised for the thankless job of risking their lives with possibly hours between rescues, all for the very likely outcome of walking out with a few thousand gold of vendor fodder trinkets, they are continually ascribed the role of a malefactor, that of the undeserved thief in the night who takes things that they don't deserve.

Again, solo play vs group play. These ninja looters could very well be providing the locksmith duties some groups would enjoy.
People tend to avoid the known ninjalooting dungeons because they are the ninjalooting dungeons.
If they were not such, then you would find groups employing lockpickers to these places.

This rationale, which I see wheeled out time and time again in one form or another, that ninja looting is 'imbalanced', that because of the server's intended rewards for group play over soloing, that it should in turn be looked upon with scorn and forcibly made less rewarding, despite being a far harder thing to do and oftentimes completely unrewarding; the hours spent ninja looting dungeons reward you with only coin in easily 95/100 full clears. No XP at all. The gold accrued is frankly trivial to obtain through far less risky and time consuming activities, such as selling herbalist-brewed potions. It is a thankless, back breaking task that is pursued by the truly mad and driven, whom either derive pleasure from the challenge presented and the sheer risks associated with it, or by those whom benevolently want to see valuables rarely seen in the loot tables reach the hands of players.

People only look at the end result; the successful looter walking around with that coveted 1% droprate from the treasury that might go to auction for half a million GP. They don't look at the ninety nine other attempts at ninjaing that saw them walk out with 3,000 GP of vendor fodder, maybe a few scrolls worth holding onto and the thought that maybe next time, surely, it'll be different. Instead of pointing to that ninja that's providing an extra roll of the dice against the loot treasuries for a chance at something people would actually like to trade for and saying they're robbing others of that coveted item, consider the amount of effort put into obtaining it in the first place and how it hasn't actually stopped others from being able to clear that same dungeon.

TL;DR, Ninja looting is a separate pipeline of valuable items that serves to lower the overall cost of valuable goods on the server, adds more gold to the total held by players and is in active circulation and manages to do so without depriving other players of XP, or of an equal shot at the same valuables. Stop vilifying our ninja looters and engaging in demands to make their efforts more difficult; what they do ultimately benefits us all.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2023, 01:08:44 AM »
It partly gets a bad rap because there are ninja looters who don't take care to denote their occupance of a dungeon and a group goes in and then finds the loot missing.

This is in such an extreme minority of cases that it barely warrants mentioning; back when I was seriously devoted to ninja looting every single dungeon in all of Barovia like clockwork with every reset, I had one occasion where I came out of the Terg Ruins with all the loot and found a party present, about to dip in. I told them to wait fifteen minutes, handed them a few choice items and went on my way; when I was actively doing this, I left a note outside the entrance of every dungeon I was actively looting, serving as a warning, solely as a courtesy. This what-if scenario of ninja looting denying other groups their valuables is not only infrequent, it's also pointedly entitled in nature. No party is entitled to the gains of any given dungeon. There have been numerous times where a party will set out to a given dungeon, only to find it's been cleared ahead of them by other players. This incident, compared to that of arriving in the wake of a ninja looter, is taken largely with grace and acceptance, followed by seeking a different dungeon to delve in it's place.

Players meanwhile will ascribe motive to the ninja looter that got to the goods before them as bearing some particular malicious intent; as if they are a shadowy figure lurking nearby waiting to overhear people will be going to a specific dungeon, just so they can get ahead of them and 'steal' what they believe is rightfully theirs. In the case of a second party clearing a dungeon, that's it. It's done, go home or find a different venue. There's no possibility of getting anything out of it anymore. In the case of a ninja looter, waiting a quarter of an hour will reset all the loot within, while also not depriving the party of the XP which is arguably the larger prize to be had. Ninja looting provides a secondary pipeline of valuables to the player market, but instead of being praised for the thankless job of risking their lives with possibly hours between rescues, all for the very likely outcome of walking out with a few thousand gold of vendor fodder trinkets, they are continually ascribed the role of a malefactor, that of the undeserved thief in the night who takes things that they don't deserve.

Again, solo play vs group play. These ninja looters could very well be providing the locksmith duties some groups would enjoy.
People tend to avoid the known ninjalooting dungeons because they are the ninjalooting dungeons.
If they were not such, then you would find groups employing lockpickers to these places.

This rationale, which I see wheeled out time and time again in one form or another, that ninja looting is 'imbalanced', that because of the server's intended rewards for group play over soloing, that it should in turn be looked upon with scorn and forcibly made less rewarding, despite being a far harder thing to do and oftentimes completely unrewarding; the hours spent ninja looting dungeons reward you with only coin in easily 95/100 full clears. No XP at all. The gold accrued is frankly trivial to obtain through far less risky and time consuming activities, such as selling herbalist-brewed potions. It is a thankless, back breaking task that is pursued by the truly mad and driven, whom either derive pleasure from the challenge presented and the sheer risks associated with it, or by those whom benevolently want to see valuables rarely seen in the loot tables reach the hands of players.

People only look at the end result; the successful looter walking around with that coveted 1% droprate from the treasury that might go to auction for half a million GP. They don't look at the ninety nine other attempts at ninjaing that saw them walk out with 3,000 GP of vendor fodder, maybe a few scrolls worth holding onto and the thought that maybe next time, surely, it'll be different. Instead of pointing to that ninja that's providing an extra roll of the dice against the loot treasuries for a chance at something people would actually like to trade for and saying they're robbing others of that coveted item, consider the amount of effort put into obtaining it in the first place and how it hasn't actually stopped others from being able to clear that same dungeon.

TL;DR, Ninja looting is a separate pipeline of valuable items that serves to lower the overall cost of valuable goods on the server, adds more gold to the total held by players and is in active circulation and manages to do so without depriving other players of XP, or of an equal shot at the same valuables. Stop vilifying our ninja looters and engaging in demands to make their efforts more difficult; what they do ultimately benefits us all.

Again, going to +1 quote Grendel once again.  Folly your posts are either blatantly deliberate misinformation or you are simply not understanding, which I fail to grasp seeing as I saw this being explained to you in full by a Dev in discord.  If you are finding loot set to zero in a dungeon it is VASTLY more likely that someone in your group has been in that dungeon earlier that day and broke the spawn.  There is not an army of ninjalooters out there waiting to pounce on people doing a dungeon.  There simply isn't.  You need to get your information correct and verified before you keep making these incorrect callouts. 

Folly

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2023, 01:22:41 AM »
Because it denies entire progression without boss kill.

See Grendals above post.

Again, solo play vs group play. These ninja looters could very well be providing the locksmith duties some groups would enjoy.
People tend to avoid the known ninjalooting dungeons because they are the ninjalooting dungeons.
If they were not such, then you would find groups employing lockpickers to these places.

If people only relied on the items found and rolled between groups, even decent in-slot gear that can't be crafted would be as rare and as expensive as your cane of detections, iron martyr, etc. To paint a picture, a hector's knuckle duster which sells for about 15-20k would probably then sell for 100k+ if ninjalooting and soloing wasn't a thing. Maybe that's good, maybe it's not. In my opinion, Grendal really hits the nail on the head.
Except as I recall when I played a year ago, there was always a set of solo players going to the places I was headed with my friends. And we were short on places to go.
Again, if these players were not doing the solo play and instead group play, 1. we'd have more options 2. we wouldnt be troubled by having our hunts going bust.

Your opinion comes from the way things currently are which has a bias.

Cody

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2023, 02:03:22 AM »
Please.. please make this so. :( Ninjalooting shouldn't be so profitable, bring back the incentives for teamwork.

Here's the thing. You're going to be likely a rogue, beguiler, or crypt dancer build who invested into making the most out of your time and effort ninjalooting.

Sure you can make tons and tons of money quickly, but what are you going to spend it on after you have all your own good stealth gear? The Search, Trap, and Lock DCs for all the difficult content are basically doable by level 12, you don't even need the best of the best gear, just kinda medium decent gear. It's not like you're warmage or cleric needing more spell slots. You're not a paladin or fighter who needs the best weapons, shields, and armor. You're going to be the support character in every situation, you're not likely the goto guy to kill a bunch of stuff. Parties do not necessarily always _need_ you to function.

You are just that one random niche rich guy, who's only useful to befriended so you can buy things for other characters. And to sell things sometimes, and even then your appraise skill gets capped quickly on various merchants.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 02:05:42 AM by Cody »

Maffa

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2023, 02:53:25 AM »
Please.. please make this so. :( Ninjalooting shouldn't be so profitable, bring back the incentives for teamwork.

Here's the thing. You're going to be likely a rogue, beguiler, or crypt dancer build who invested into making the most out of your time and effort ninjalooting.

Sure you can make tons and tons of money quickly, but what are you going to spend it on after you have all your own good stealth gear? The Search, Trap, and Lock DCs for all the difficult content are basically doable by level 12, you don't even need the best of the best gear, just kinda medium decent gear. It's not like you're warmage or cleric needing more spell slots. You're not a paladin or fighter who needs the best weapons, shields, and armor. You're going to be the support character in every situation, you're not likely the goto guy to kill a bunch of stuff. Parties do not necessarily always _need_ you to function.

You are just that one random niche rich guy, who's only useful to befriended so you can buy things for other characters. And to sell things sometimes, and even then your appraise skill gets capped quickly on various merchants.

There is Rp situations where having lots of money is useful. If you plan of playing the big game in Port, you could hire retainers, for example. If you have the chance you can rent the Penthouse which goes for thousands a week. etc.


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Cyber Viking

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2023, 03:15:30 AM »
Please.. please make this so. :( Ninjalooting shouldn't be so profitable, bring back the incentives for teamwork.

Here's the thing. You're going to be likely a rogue, beguiler, or crypt dancer build who invested into making the most out of your time and effort ninjalooting.

Sure you can make tons and tons of money quickly, but what are you going to spend it on after you have all your own good stealth gear? The Search, Trap, and Lock DCs for all the difficult content are basically doable by level 12, you don't even need the best of the best gear, just kinda medium decent gear. It's not like you're warmage or cleric needing more spell slots. You're not a paladin or fighter who needs the best weapons, shields, and armor. You're going to be the support character in every situation, you're not likely the goto guy to kill a bunch of stuff. Parties do not necessarily always _need_ you to function.

You are just that one random niche rich guy, who's only useful to befriended so you can buy things for other characters. And to sell things sometimes, and even then your appraise skill gets capped quickly on various merchants.

There is Rp situations where having lots of money is useful. If you plan of playing the big game in Port, you could hire retainers, for example. If you have the chance you can rent the Penthouse which goes for thousands a week. etc.

 I mean yeah i made 1 million on my bard, after buying all the gear i wanted i shelved the PC for a while saying "he went on a trip to mordent and stayed in a whore house for a year" Just dumped that 1 mill in the trash and started money making again from 0. The fun is just sometimes in earning the way, not just being rich.


Vissy

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2023, 03:29:18 AM »
I agree that ninjalooting is fine. It's what keeps the item economy ticking and many commonplace loot drops in the hands of newly misted and newbie characters. Really we could use even more ninjalooters.
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MAB77

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2023, 10:10:19 AM »
Ninjalooting in and on itself is a not an issue. The staff is officially quite neutral about it. Our game mechanics greatly mitigate the impact of ninjalooters on others. It is easy for us to adjust the maximum value of loot wherever it may prove problematic, but it is not a huge concern for the dev team. Clearing spawns and visiting a same dungeon too often are the actual culprits to low value loot in dungeons.

Ninjalooters can already leave paper notes at the entrance of the dungeon to signify they are there if the so wish. They don't have to. Antagonistic actions are permitted on this server. It is allowed for a ninjalooter to steal your treasures under your very nose. Obvisouly, if you do catch them in the act, and that they refuse to return the treasures, well... they are considered as having opted in for PvP. So never neglect those detection skills. It is a party's responsibility to detect the presence of a stealther, not for them to announce their presence.

Now, we do favorise group play, so do not be too surprised if future dungeons have mechanical puzzles requiring several players to complete and/or have hard spawns that must absolutely be beaten to progress beyond certain points. This may curb ninjalooting in some areas, but it won't be measures against ninjalooting per se.
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EarlofEtheria

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2023, 09:38:35 PM »
Keys are cool. The classic answer to locked doors. You got all sorts of styles and mystery surrounding them. Clearly not for every dungeon, but an atmospheric dressing. I can get tired finding the same key in the same place ad-nauseum in a persistent world however. If more keys are in our future, I'd like their location to have some unpredictability.

Maybe multiple locations? Sometimes found on a mob? Maybe there's no key beyond the rogue's now and again?

I'd prefer if we looked at the OP's mention of fun, instead of talking about loot economics.

Cyber Viking

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2023, 10:12:20 PM »
Keys are cool. The classic answer to locked doors. You got all sorts of styles and mystery surrounding them. Clearly not for every dungeon, but an atmospheric dressing. I can get tired finding the same key in the same place ad-nauseum in a persistent world however. If more keys are in our future, I'd like their location to have some unpredictability.

Maybe multiple locations? Sometimes found on a mob? Maybe there's no key beyond the rogue's now and again?

I'd prefer if we looked at the OP's mention of fun, instead of talking about loot economics.

Allready in place. Vestibule is a good dungeon for key hunting. If you want to fully do that dungeon you need to find like 8 keys


EarlofEtheria

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2023, 11:34:06 AM »
Allready in place. Vestibule is a good dungeon for key hunting. If you want to fully do that dungeon you need to find like 8 keys

The Vestibule is an interesting case, and a decent example of what can be achieved with keys. A key to enter that must be collected from the same location repeatedly, some found in the dungeon are reusable, and some other keys that are an intentional mystery guarding content that has since been removed.

Did the Vestibule achieve an identity through all these? Without question, but I'd argue there's more to design than identity alone.

The Vestibule is THE key dungeon, sure, but it has critics too. It's perhaps one of the longest dungeons to run on the server, and to "full clear" it demands even more time to prepare. Keys here were taken to the extreme, and I'm not suggesting we take every key or every dungeon to this magnitude.

Small amounts of unpredictability can help feel an adventure feel more like an adventure. Even if it's as simplistic as Skeleton Bob has the key today, instead of Skeleton Jim. Perhaps Zombie Tim forgot to lock the door behind him, or lost their key down the well.

Folly

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Re: Droppable treasure keys
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2023, 12:33:58 PM »
Quote
...as I saw this being explained to you in full by a Dev in discord.

never happened

And I know what instances of ninjalooting was disruptive - and they were in fact attributed to ninjalooters. I'm not making misinformation. There are "good" and "bad" ninjalooters.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 01:03:35 PM by Folly »