You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum  (Read 1099 times)

Croissant

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« on: January 21, 2023, 03:20:23 PM »
TLDR/Edit: My suggestion is to make a Biography forum rule: ""Biography Forum: Do not write about other player's characters without their prior permission." Broader ideas were discussed initially but I think this is the right solution for the problem.


Quote
:arrow: Sharing Current IC Info:  Players should take care not to share IC info on things such as on-going events between players or DMs, Recent PvP, outcomes of IC interactions, ect.  Players should not share player locations (even their own) , OOCly form dungeon parties, ask for IC help/raises from other players, or do anything that would compromise the integrity of IC motivations.  Telling old "war stories" is not an issue.  Sharing info that could be used to metagame or OOCly influence events occurring ingame is against the rules.
(First Offense) - First Warning
(Second Offense) - Final Warning
(Third Offense) - 3 Day Ban
(Fourth Offense) - 1 Week Ban
(Fifth Offense) - 1 Month Ban
(Sixth Offense) - Indefinite Ban

I haven't been able to find a place anywhere else on the forums this is mentioned, apologies if I've missed it. This is under Consistent Rulings / Punishments. Nor is there anything related to generally spreading metagamed information.

I want to suggest that forum posts, particularly Biographies, be a little more tightly restricted in terms of sharing current IC information at least about other players' PCs. I think Biography posts and other forum posts can be just as harmful as Discord when sharing current IC information.

As an example, all of this is completely made up:

Quote
Olivenka secretly washes her feet in the Gaping Wound whiskey every morning, then serves it to customers! Ew! She also secretly spends her time stealing candy from babies and all those stray cats she collects? She puts them in the stew!

Now let's look at a few scenarios of what can happen when this is discovered:

Quote
Some PC discovers she's doing this, let's call him Bob. Bob witnesses these horrific acts, and runs around telling everyone, but no one believes him, because Olivenka's a good girl. If anyone notices a suspiciously feline taste to the stew, they think nothing of it.

or

Quote
Bob tells everyone, and writes a Biography post on the forums describing what his PC saw. Now players know that it's true, so they are more inclined to believe Bob when he tells them IC, and Olivenka's cats are saved.

or

Quote
Bob tells no one, but writes it in his Biography post. Now everyone knows OOC, but not IC, yet players see Olivenka differently whenever she is around cats...it's affected how they percieve the PC.

These examples are hardly needed, because there is already a rule about this for sharing current IC information on Discord.

I suggest the rule potentially be expanded to include Forum posts, or at least Biographies. I think there's a lot of potential for Biography posts to harm other player's PCs or benefit one's own PC, in the same way that sharing current IC information on Discord can.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the rules, currently it seems like I could make Biography posts that are character assassinations and be fine doing so. Am I misunderstanding anything? I tried very hard to find clarification in the rules but turned up nothing.

Want to open this up to discussion and hear what other people think!

And don't worry, the stew is vegetarian!  :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 05:11:43 PM by Croissant »
Olivenka Manolescu: Barmaid-turned-detective!

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2023, 03:25:43 PM »
It's probably not a written rule anywhere but it's definitely bad form to write a biography post that reveals information about other characters.  I think it's fine to express opinions, but actual revelations are a bit much.

I do know that people have been asked to edit their biography posts in the past by DMs, so it's probably easy enough to sort out.

Though really, at the end of the day someone using information that they learned from a biography post that they can't prove they learned in-game is metagaming.  As with most things I'd report it if you've got a concern.



Skelni

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1079
  • You can always contact me
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2023, 03:26:18 PM »
While I'm not sure any rule needs to be rewritten or added to, I understand the post and reasoning. I have seen some people do - What might've seemed innocent enough in sharing information that didn't seem readily compromising - That ends up effectively revealing more than it could ever entail (An exposure of a PC's name through a description, but there was nothing conveying that itself within the description) so this does make some logical sense for forum postings about PCs and just themselves alone.

I mostly just say, exercise caution. But I do see how someone would look at putting cats in stew as some kind of indication that they now suddenly suspect said PC without any evidence.
Active: Vorrala Dalael

Shelved: Dirge Driftwood - Jezebel Redcherry - Silf Argyros - Ledewif Oberholtz

Closured: Razik Slepnel - Azaulia Curantus - Gavril Dragnea

Croissant

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2023, 03:35:18 PM »
Though really, at the end of the day someone using information that they learned from a biography post that they can't prove they learned in-game is metagaming.  As with most things I'd report it if you've got a concern.

To clarify, my concern is more about the effect it can have on a community in terms of soft metagaming. If someone is dragging a character through the mud and revealing their dirty laundry in Bio posts, inherently that may affect how players view the other PCs, how likely they are to notice things or it may frame the way they view that PC differently. There's no defense for the "victim" PC in this situation, they can't argue against it and they can't really accuse people of metagaming if it just makes others more likely to believe negative information.

The same is true of positive things in Biographies, it can frame how players see them.

If we have these rules for Discord, why should the more permanent and wider-reaching forums be different?
Olivenka Manolescu: Barmaid-turned-detective!

inkcorvid

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2023, 03:41:54 PM »
OOC info definitely leaks IC all the time through a sort of dynamic of "permission to believe" / "permission to disbelieve"

If you know OOC that, for example, that a certain Ezrite warden is secretly a demon-worshipper, any slightest barest hint of IC suggestion in that direction gives you "permission to believe" it. But on the other hand, if you're pretty sure OOC they're not, someone shouting "oi! that there Ezrite warden is a secret demon worshipper!" affords "permission to disbelieve" - reasonable skepticism of the random accusation.

This is most clear in cases that don't involve IC/OOC bleed between players, but rather setting information. Most anyone who hears that Strahd is a vampire instantly believes it. But most anyone who hears that Strahd is a Death Knight is reasonably skeptical. Most anyone who ICly hears anything about planes, or other aspects of the D&D cosmology, takes it at face value. But whacky theories that aren't known to be true OOCly will often face resistance.
Active: Nissa Arden, Chiara Grassini
Shelved: Dindalmogra Ggol, Serinda Takmarin, Lyra Rimewood, Sofie Reiss, Aidelina Gatteux, Odette Sautereau, Livny Skovgaard, Innogen Ashe
Closed: Anjeza Bajramovic, Nim Farboffle

DM Erebus

  • Dungeon Masters
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 2653
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2023, 03:42:58 PM »
In my experience it doesn't come up often, but the rule does apply to Biography posts, yes.

If you think a Biography post reveals too much sensitive information / is suspicious / could constitute metagaming, bring it to the DM Team for investigation.

RedMoney

  • Gendarmerie
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 869
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2023, 03:46:44 PM »
 I'm reading through some recent biographies and seeing a lot of people naming names and commenting on very present events.  I've done it myself without really considering the ripple effects it would/could have. Maybe a sticky thread in the biography section with some guidelines/reminders would help?

**Or just a disclaimer the person(s) mentioned in bios gave consent**

Croissant

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2023, 03:59:58 PM »
I'm reading through some recent biographies and seeing a lot of people naming names and commenting on very present events.  I've done it myself without really considering the ripple effects it would/could have. Maybe a sticky thread in the biography section with some guidelines/reminders would help?

**Or just a disclaimer the person(s) mentioned in bios gave consent**

This could be nice, if it's not possible for a rule to change. I think it could potentially get people to consider whether it is fair for them to put what they are putting in their bios.
Olivenka Manolescu: Barmaid-turned-detective!

ladylena

  • Gundie Mom
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3259
  • Meow!
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2023, 04:01:28 PM »
Yeah biography posts are not to be considered something learned IC unless you get your hands on said characters journal and read it but that would only give your journal bits IC, nothing else.

In the past I've had players ask me to remove names or details from a bio as they felt it shouldn't be there or felt uncomfortable, and that's fine. I've also had to modify bio posts due to a DM request, and even as the result of a reversal of rp due to a rule break. If you feel that players are using OOC information IC that should be reported.

Biographies/journals are both a IC and OOC tool. When a character writes a journal IC they will treat it as being such. And as the forum post about the biography section indicates nothing in it should be used for IC gains. If you find that you may be prone to letting what you read in the journals affect how your character acts maybe it might be best to not read them while playing an active character. Or read the ones that your character will never interact with.

To reiterate: if you suspect someone is using OOC information IC report that to the DM team so they can investigate it and nip it in the bud.
Currently playing:
                          Narcissa Bogdan

zDark Shadowz

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2023, 04:50:21 PM »
If it's a biography post, ask the characters involved if it's okay. There's a few posts that do retelling of events with wonderful narrative structure and permission.

Croissant

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2023, 05:09:35 PM »
If it's a biography post, ask the characters involved if it's okay. There's a few posts that do retelling of events with wonderful narrative structure and permission.

This seems like a very reasonable compromise, what about this as a rule addition instead of my broader initial proposal?

"Biography Forum: Do not write about other player's characters without their prior permission."
Olivenka Manolescu: Barmaid-turned-detective!

Maiyannah

  • First Watcher
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1327
  • Courage is the soul of life.
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2023, 07:35:14 AM »
I'm reading through some recent biographies and seeing a lot of people naming names and commenting on very present events.  I've done it myself without really considering the ripple effects it would/could have. Maybe a sticky thread in the biography section with some guidelines/reminders would help?

**Or just a disclaimer the person(s) mentioned in bios gave consent**

I've been working back from what is backstory/background for Livu towards the present as part of a way to give a good bit of distance in time before anything I might mention in bios that's IC is out there.  While no hard and fast rule requires this, I think it's a good approach to try to stem metagaming.

I think requiring permission to mention things that happened to your character is overreaching though.  Actions have consequences, and the only thing you ensure by these kinds of rules is implicitly enforcing roleplay which is ephemeral, because people aren't going to consider it part of their characters background if they cannot get permission.
Currently:
Livu Olmstead - First Watcher of Helm
Emmanuelle de le Foret - Ezrite escapee from Hazlan

Also:
Sarabeth d'Gagne - Ghastrian artist
Sabina Ennaies - Barovian road warden

ladylena

  • Gundie Mom
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3259
  • Meow!
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2023, 08:46:35 AM »
If metagaming is the issue we should be reporting these people who are.letting ooc impact ic. If there are people reading things and letting those impact how they rp that is metagaming and a rule break. It should  be reported so this does not continue instead of going for something that has been this way for decades. The issue seems to me to be metagaming. Which is s rulebreak, if you suspect metagaming report it ASAP. The dm team will investigate and make sure it is valid.

Additionally if you see your name in something and want it removed, most people if not all, will do so no problem.
Currently playing:
                          Narcissa Bogdan

myrddraal

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2023, 08:54:48 AM »
I mean personally I think bios are better left for dead characters.  Just so there isn’t any poisoning of the well.  On the other hand, if you feel you might metagsme even accidentally..don’t read bios.

Croissant

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2023, 03:29:10 PM »
The point of rules like "don't share current IC information" is to remove the possibility, and to protect the potential victims before it happens.
Olivenka Manolescu: Barmaid-turned-detective!

NacreCicatrix

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • loser
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2023, 06:05:57 PM »
Characters being unreliable narrators, it is important to understand that what a PC writes in their journal may be exagerrated, total bull, speculation, manufactured drama, or, at lightest, their skewed version of the narrative (this happens IC, too!). But, sometimes, it certainly does feel like they are trying to plant a seed with players who are impressionable, and may 'take on' that 'information' as tru fax. Some of us may even subconsciously react to this 'background knowledge'. It's not necessarily intentional.
It's definitely interesting to see what your own character has said/done being minced as it passes down the line, for sure. You type one thing. People somehow manage to read something completely different. You compare this to the screenshots of [thing that actually happened] and feel baffled.
tl;dr treat the majority of journals that reflect on IC events like a prose version of the Maury Povich show.
It is not an ending, but an ebbing.

McDuck

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 98
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2023, 09:24:48 AM »
People take forum post to much as truth.
Not only biographs.

Discords the same.
Multiple cases i have seen and experienced.
Running after things on the forum cause Char is mentioned.

Mainly Guild discords wher names and information is shared freely.
Anny one who has acces to it can read it.
Use it without anny consequences.

This do's not motivate healty rp at all.
People go trough serious lenghts to get ther statement trough.
As a single indevidual. Good luck boxing up against that.
if we would follow the rule of roumermogging. This would be part of it.

Getting a case running against it. Good luck getting awnsers on it.
It turns quick to you are harassing people.

Personal experience: It is tiresome to run after every detail. Ignoring is not an option and you must be right ontop of it if you want to halt it
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 09:31:11 AM by McDuck »

Frankz

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2023, 09:39:35 PM »
Also. While you can remove a notice IG. You cannot remove a notice from the forums. Which gives you few IG solutions if someone decides to start writing about you.

cooachlyfe

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 607
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2023, 12:41:27 AM »
Also. While you can remove a notice IG. You cannot remove a notice from the forums. Which gives you few IG solutions if someone decides to start writing about you.

Yes you can, you can just edit it if the contents are no longer relevant

rabbitstew

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2023, 05:09:52 AM »
Also. While you can remove a notice IG. You cannot remove a notice from the forums. Which gives you few IG solutions if someone decides to start writing about you.

There is also a whole section called "Whispers in the Shadows" on the forum that will contain all sorts of rumors even without notes.
But then again, rumors are part of the game and there is no reason why they would disappear just because ig notes are removed.

Croissant

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2023, 05:50:22 AM »
The topic is getting pretty off-track, my suggestion is regarding how sharing of IC secrets via OOC methods on the forum is handled in the rules. It does not have anything to do with in-game notices.

Please stay on topic, thank you!
Olivenka Manolescu: Barmaid-turned-detective!

Maiyannah

  • First Watcher
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1327
  • Courage is the soul of life.
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2023, 10:43:18 AM »
I don't see the point of new rules in this vein, personally.

Metagaming is already disallowed in a blanket fashion, and DMs arbitrate what players should be able to figure out IC or OOC when there are reports made.  Having specific rules for specific types of metagaming, in my view, only invites "rules lawyering".
Currently:
Livu Olmstead - First Watcher of Helm
Emmanuelle de le Foret - Ezrite escapee from Hazlan

Also:
Sarabeth d'Gagne - Ghastrian artist
Sabina Ennaies - Barovian road warden

noah25

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 671
Re: Sharing of IC information on Discord vs Forum
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2023, 02:02:28 PM »
In my experience it doesn't come up often, but the rule does apply to Biography posts, yes.

If you think a Biography post reveals too much sensitive information / is suspicious / could constitute metagaming, bring it to the DM Team for investigation.

From doing it on accident before not realizing thats what I was doing, yes, this is not allowed and if caught they will remove or have you amend the biography.