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Author Topic: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?  (Read 2981 times)

Savras

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2023, 09:02:54 AM »
I have no interest in nerfing wizard whatsoever. That the developers of D&D and NWN were content to leave Sorcerer poorly developed does not motivate me to crab bucket other classes.

Second they buff sorc's with something like bloodline, it's goodbye wizard.

And why would think that? Don't you think we will not take the time to calibrate the bloodlines? I'm sure there will be a flavor of the moment period with an increased number of sorcerers around, but wizards will remain the kings of magic no matter what. Their greater access to spells and metamagic feats ensures it. And the post title is misleading. It's not about nerfing wizards per se, but about balancing the wizard for server content. That can be achieved in multiple ways without sacrificing any of their powers.

We may make some aspects of it more challenging during gameplay though. Dead magic and silence zones, balancing some spells, increased SR on some monsters. Though you are more likely to see that in future dungeons than existing ones.

It's just, i don't think that sorcerer is really asweak as people claim. Since their ease of spells readily available in any situation compared to the wizard preparation styles makes a big difference when unexpected things happen. The feat advantage and limited spell selection can be overturned with character planning. The main downside being the level behind in spell progression, but when has level progression ever been a care in regards to large grouping.

The easiest way to make sorcerer more enticing alongside most arcane classes, is adding more class specific feats.

Sorcerer getting bloodlines may tip them as king, but that's a wait and see. I meant that comment more in personal measure than actual playerbase; but i imagine there will be a flood of sorcerers when it comes out.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 09:05:29 AM by Savras »

MAB77

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2023, 11:15:50 AM »
No one is claiming sorcerers are weak, they remain, arguably, the 2nd most powerful class of the server. And again this thread is about wizards, post in the other thread if you would like to discuss about sorcerers. Although we do have a good plan for them and I advise to just wait and see.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2023, 05:20:24 PM »
[...]

Simply put, in the original post, I'd quoted text from MAB77 about trying to avoid the power creep by buffing other classes so that they might feel they measure up to other, more mechanically powerful classes. The intent of the discussion isn't to talk about buffing other classes which has already been done so often, but to explore options to fairly, if warrented, nerf the class in which so many are compared against.

Indeed, though nerfing may not even be needed. Balancing wizards for contents can likely be achieved without sacrificing their powers.

To me, it is the ease by which wizards can acquire scrolls that is the true point of contention. In p&p we can reasonably assume that a dm would likely control what spells a player acquires, in so doing a better balance is achieved with the sorcerer. It is more difficult to do here. If only they had a little harder time to fill their spellbooks I feel there would be a greater balance toward other arcane classes.

I see 3 avenues here: reducing the amount of scrolls in NPC shops, adjusting scroll values to control their drop rate, increasing to 2 prohibited schools for specialists as per the sourcebook.

Recognizing that scrolls are important for UMD classes, I would not remove all scrolls from shops. I'd keep all the 1st and 2nd level scrolls currently sold, and then keep a few select ones at higher levels. Adjusting scroll values for loot drops as proposed by Grendel is actually a good idea. It won't change the fact that, in due time, a wizard may still come to learn all spells, but we can slow down the rate of acquisition. This should also bolster the market to trade scrolls between PCs.

Increasing the amount of prohibited schools to 2 as per the source material would also contribute in limiting the number of spells for wizards. This is how it should work anyway, though I am uncertain if the game engine would let us modify the system to work as such.

Quote from: D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook p.57
The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools. For instance, if she chooses to specialize in conjuration, she might decide to give up enchantment and necromancy, or evocation and transmutation. A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.


This server has a toxic relationship with caster-based classes. From my observation, this is in-part, hysteria from the player-base on how they believe certain classes have it in terms of commodity, luxury, and utility compared to other classes. The other part is what I see as a flaw in the server's philosophy.

You can't have a low-magic server, but still expect to reasonably accommodate the roleplay of classes that are entirely magic-based. The fact that Wizards cannot write scrolls, even at the cost of XP/Levels, is already a major nail in the coffin for traditional Wizard educational roleplay. Further reducing the availability of scrolls would only cause further harm.

The problem Sorcerer has, is that it is genuinely an inferior class, mechanically. It sucks; It sucked, in vanilla, which it essentially still is, and it sucks now even more that there is more spell availability, and trying to nerf other classes to bring it in line falls distinctly out of pair with what was done to Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and many other classes on the server which are significantly better than their vanilla counterparts.

Creating a server where the presence of magic is low, but 90% of the roster of available player classes have a divine or arcane component to them somewhat defeats the point, and only serves to further devalue the roleplay and mechanical value of those classes as they are attempted to be brought in-line to support the server's low-magic view.

Traditionally speaking, low-magic does not mean that those with magic are somehow handicapped, but that they are exceptionally rare figures whom, when present, are wonderous and with splendor in their abilities, with your average character being non-magical. I don't think this balance will ever be acceptably rectified in a manner the community will accept, because it never has in nearly 20 years of the server's existence.

So why bother nerfing Wizard now? It's pointless. That being said, spell components wouldn't be a bad idea, if they were weightless. Archers have to fire arrows, no reason Sorcerers and Wizards couldn't have to carry spell components on them. That seems extremely reasonable to me.

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2023, 05:27:20 PM »
No spell components, please. PotM doesn't need even more inventory management.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2023, 05:29:44 PM »
No spell components, please. PotM doesn't need even more inventory management.

Why shouldn't they? Archers don't magically get their own arrows manifested in their pocket. This is a legitimate part of DnD, and a part of roleplay for these classes that has traditionally enriched their existence. Ever heard of a quest that a witch needed a component for her spell?

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2023, 05:34:48 PM »
No spell components, please. PotM doesn't need even more inventory management.

Why shouldn't they? Archers don't magically get their own arrows manifested in their pocket. This is a legitimate part of DnD, and a part of roleplay for these classes that has traditionally enriched their existence. Ever heard of a quest that a witch needed a component for her spell?

As I've pointed out earlier in the thread; inventory management is already one of the more onerous parts of gameplay. For Wizards especially, having to have bags upon bags of scrolls, stored books and other miscellaneous things, adding extra weight and inventory devoted to components sounds even worse. It will further hamstring the ability for casters to beneficially buff/ward other characters and in all likelihood will result in a new economy where frontliners are forced to carry reagents in place of the people actually using the spells, elsewise they'll not receive them.

Scenario: Group of people heads to the Terg Ruins, Ice Palace, pick your poison. Time comes to buff and either the Wizard refuses to provide buffs for people who aren't carrying the reagents necessary, or has forgotten to bring them. In turn, the entire party is forced to backtrack and go collect the reagents necessary. This ultimately punishes everyone and provides no enrichment to gameplay, just further restrictions and requirements.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2023, 05:39:24 PM »
No spell components, please. PotM doesn't need even more inventory management.

Why shouldn't they? Archers don't magically get their own arrows manifested in their pocket. This is a legitimate part of DnD, and a part of roleplay for these classes that has traditionally enriched their existence. Ever heard of a quest that a witch needed a component for her spell?

As I've pointed out earlier in the thread; inventory management is already one of the more onerous parts of gameplay. For Wizards especially, having to have bags upon bags of scrolls, stored books and other miscellaneous things, adding extra weight and inventory devoted to components sounds even worse. It will further hamstring the ability for casters to beneficially buff/ward other characters and in all likelihood will result in a new economy where frontliners are forced to carry reagents in place of the people actually using the spells, elsewise they'll not receive them.

Scenario: Group of people heads to the Terg Ruins, Ice Palace, pick your poison. Time comes to buff and either the Wizard refuses to provide buffs for people who aren't carrying the reagents necessary, or has forgotten to bring them. In turn, the entire party is forced to backtrack and go collect the reagents necessary. This ultimately punishes everyone and provides no enrichment to gameplay, just further restrictions and requirements.

You mentioned this, but I said, the components would need to be weightless for it to function well. These are legitimately required roleplay aspects, whereas carrying a marathon of roleplay books on your person is an option and isn't strictly neccessary for roleplay. Nor is a legion of scrolls, after a point. Those are both luxuries, whereas one of the balancing features of the class in tabletop is being argued against in a thread seeking reasonable ways to add further requirements to wizards.

Also, by your argument, any change to Wizards would punish the entirety of the group.  This goes back to my argument about the balance of the server's vision and the reality of its application being a bit out-of-whack.

Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2023, 05:44:42 PM »
Regular arrows cost 1gp for 99, dude. In most regular playthroughs of NWN, you buy a couple of stacks and you're good for the game. The super-duper PotM crafted luxury arrows aren't comparable.
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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2023, 05:47:47 PM »
Regular arrows cost 1gp for 99, dude. In most regular playthroughs of NWN, you buy a couple of stacks and you're good for the game. The super-duper PotM crafted luxury arrows aren't comparable.

This is also a very valid point; comparing stacks of mundane arrows to magical reagents isn't applicable at all. Unless the proposed spell components cost trivial amounts of gold, take up negligible amounts of weight and are readily available from everywhere; in which case I'd argue that their addition serves no purpose anyway. Buying mundane arrows/bolts is largely a formality, one that I also wouldn't be disappointed to see go away, being that it's largely a matter of tedious book-keeping rather than actual resource management to have them available.

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2023, 05:52:50 PM »
The biggest issue with this whole discussion about wizards is that the drawback of wizards, the need to prepare for a specific encounter, is nearly utterly irrelevant for most of the game.
While there are certainly situations when a wizard runs into something unexpected and thereby loses most of their advantage, 99,9% of the game is predictable encounters.

It has been said so many times that all the advantages wizards have in comparison to other classes is paid for by the need to prepare, but in reality this disadvantage is rarely relevant at all.

That said, I don't think the class needs a nerf in general, but just a rebalance of the power curve from useless to demigod.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2023, 06:09:54 PM »

This server has a toxic relationship with caster-based classes. From my observation, this is in-part, hysteria from the player-base on how they believe certain classes have it in terms of commodity, luxury, and utility compared to other classes. The other part is what I see as a flaw in the server's philosophy.

You can't have a low-magic server, but still expect to reasonably accommodate the roleplay of classes that are entirely magic-based. The fact that Wizards cannot write scrolls, even at the cost of XP/Levels, is already a major nail in the coffin for traditional Wizard educational roleplay. Further reducing the availability of scrolls would only cause further harm.

The problem Sorcerer has, is that it is genuinely an inferior class, mechanically. It sucks; It sucked, in vanilla, which it essentially still is, and it sucks now even more that there is more spell availability, and trying to nerf other classes to bring it in line falls distinctly out of pair with what was done to Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and many other classes on the server which are significantly better than their vanilla counterparts.

Creating a server where the presence of magic is low, but 90% of the roster of available player classes have a divine or arcane component to them somewhat defeats the point, and only serves to further devalue the roleplay and mechanical value of those classes as they are attempted to be brought in-line to support the server's low-magic view.

Traditionally speaking, low-magic does not mean that those with magic are somehow handicapped, but that they are exceptionally rare figures whom, when present, are wonderous and with splendor in their abilities, with your average character being non-magical. I don't think this balance will ever be acceptably rectified in a manner the community will accept, because it never has in nearly 20 years of the server's existence.

So why bother nerfing Wizard now? It's pointless. That being said, spell components wouldn't be a bad idea, if they were weightless. Archers have to fire arrows, no reason Sorcerers and Wizards couldn't have to carry spell components on them. That seems extremely reasonable to me.

I remember the "start" of this toxic relationship. When the server was only Barovia (I saw Dementlieu being inaugurated), the loot table was veeeeeery different. I remember that the prize of a fencing tournament hosted by a DM was... a masterwork rapier. That. No added damage nor anything. Because +1 weapons were RARE. Since magic wepons were so rare, caster classes were deeply envied.

Fast forward a little more than 15 years: we added enchanting (hello +2/+4 weapons for EVERYONE, +3/+4 those who have time to dedicate), scroll shops, consumables, alchemy, herbalism and masterwork wepons dropping in the loot table so easily that you can buy them at Petre's and that changed a lot, but the envy is still there. So there that the joke "oh, is the monthly nerf a wizard disguised thread again?" is not even disguised. It is plainly and open: "Are wizards in need of a nerf?"

Now, I'll not repeat the whole list of wizard's problems (like the awful bab, bab and few class skills) nor will I point out that the problem is really the toxic relation with wizards (why is not no one asking for a druid nerf? The guys have all: melee, spells, skill points, imunities and have a feat that make them imune to crit and sneak!) but the point is that creating a new mechanic to PURELY annoy wizards is a misplaced revanchism. You want to create inventory management without any need and that will not create anything but annoyance (unless deliberately wrong, like making a pinch of guano heavyer than 100 arrows) just because you "feel" that wizards have the life too good, now, my friends, this is not excellent.

I would be VERY happy to see scribe scroll and craft wand back in the game and if components are the price to pay, let it be. But creating more annoyances won't make the game more pleasant.

Oh, and P.s.: you guys asking for wizard's components for spells, you know that every caster class will need that too, right? Wizards, sorcerers, beguilers, warmages and whatever class that need a material component. And make clerics hold their divine focus.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2023, 06:12:18 PM »
Regular arrows cost 1gp for 99, dude. In most regular playthroughs of NWN, you buy a couple of stacks and you're good for the game. The super-duper PotM crafted luxury arrows aren't comparable.


This is also a very valid point; comparing stacks of mundane arrows to magical reagents isn't applicable at all. Unless the proposed spell components cost trivial amounts of gold, take up negligible amounts of weight and are readily available from everywhere; in which case I'd argue that their addition serves no purpose anyway. Buying mundane arrows/bolts is largely a formality, one that I also wouldn't be disappointed to see go away, being that it's largely a matter of tedious book-keeping rather than actual resource management to have them available.

I'm certain some of the reagents for basic spells would be commonly available from witch's huts and other areas of magic, such as the secret Mystran cult in Billage of Varovia, or the Mage's Tower in Barovia, the University of Dementlieu, etc, but as spells become higher-level, they would likewise require more exotic reagents to perform the spells, with the rarest and most difficult to acquire coming from 9th Circle Spells, providing a more potent method of controlling their overuse than simply making their scrolls difficult to acquire.

Proficient classes do not spend 1gp on a stack of 99 Arrows, and Rangers plink carelessly into combat. In a single dungeon run, a Ranger will run through several stacks of arrows in some cases, whether they are crafted arrows that are expensive, or they are junk arrows that are less effective. A Wizard will not use that many spells, so the comparison isn't quite that good.

I don't think being too lazy to acquire reagents to cast spells is a good argument against its implementation. That same argument would be made for any burden we were not already accommodated to, but then years later would treat as normal and commonplace. Said reagents would need to be more plentiful than herbs, or include parts of the herbalism system in it, either or, but if that were the case, many herbs would need to become far more commonplace.


Quote from: Anarcoplayba
You want to create inventory management without any need and that will not create anything but annoyance (unless deliberately wrong, like making a pinch of guano heavyer than 100 arrows) just because you "feel" that wizards have the life too good, now, my friends, this is not excellent.

I would be VERY happy to see scribe scroll and craft wand back in the game and if components are the price to pay, let it be. But creating more annoyances won't make the game more pleasant.

Oh, and P.s.: you guys asking for wizard's components for spells, you know that every caster class will need that too, right? Wizards, sorcerers, beguilers, warmages and whatever class that need a material component. And make clerics hold their divine focus.

Yes, I'm aware. I think components should exist for all caster-based classes. This wouldn't be to purely annoy Wizards. I would also like to see craft scroll and wand put back into the game, as well.

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2023, 06:26:59 PM »
I don't think being too lazy to acquire reagents to cast spells is a good argument against its implementation.

Good thing that's not anyone's argument, then. Play the ball, not the man.
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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2023, 06:35:59 PM »
I don't think being too lazy to acquire reagents to cast spells is a good argument against its implementation.

Good thing that's not anyone's argument, then. Play the ball, not the man.

Arguing that added inventory management is too much means you aren't willing to countenance the extra loadwork added by the restriction. It isn't playing the man, it is playing the ball. It isn't my fault the ball's validity rests on the sternum of the man. Especially when the form that the spell components take place in do not necessarily have to be as diverse as they are in canon, but can be condensed for gameplay reasons in compromise.

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2023, 06:41:11 PM »
To add to my earlier post, as a sorcerer not only am I not interested in nerfing wizard, I am even less interested in being nerfed because they're allegedly too strong. This is even if the form of that nerf is inconveniencing me just so that I can access the only feature that makes my class worth playing, spells.
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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2023, 06:44:22 PM »
Arguing that added inventory management is too much means you aren't willing to countenance the extra loadwork added by the restriction. It isn't playing the man, it is playing the ball. It isn't my fault the ball's validity rests on the sternum of the man. Especially when the form that the spell components take place in do not necessarily have to be as diverse as they are in canon, but can be condensed for gameplay reasons in compromise.

No. I don't find it fun. That doesn't mean I'm lazy, that's just your unflattering interpretation.

We have a disagreement in taste and you've painted yours as more virtuous. This is both false and an ad hominem argument. There's no point in this debate if you can't recognise that.
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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2023, 06:47:54 PM »
As I said before I don't think wizards need to be touched at all but I would not mind nerfs. If people want to nerf wizards to solely ward bots, then they will need to pay a premium for a ward bot or risk going through a dungeon without wards

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2023, 06:51:34 PM »
Would 100% love to see spell components or even some kind of cost/risk associated with casting spells above 7th circle for wizards. Great power should attract the attention of greater powers still. Inventory management is fun, who doesn't love Tetris? No solution to this problem is ever going to solve 100% of the playerbase, so don't even try.

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2023, 06:52:43 PM »
- Increase the delay between rests for wizards.
- Increase the number of prohibited schools to 2 or 3 for specialists.
- Introduce spell components (on that one we're rather cold).
- Reduce the amount of bonus feats for wizards.
- Limit the amount of spells wizards can learn.
- Do nothing, it's fine as is.
- Removing scrolls from shops.


Of all these potential changes, the only one that makes any practical sense to me is to reduce the quantity of scrolls in shops, and would likely be the simplest tweak to implement.  The ability to assemble the entire repertoire of wizard spells with nothing more than enough gold (at least up to 5th level spells) without ever leaving Barovia is ridiculous, and makes scrolls in loot almost pointless until you start finding higher level ones.  Keep a core of essential scrolls in NPC inventories, and the UMD folks will have 80-90% of their needs met, while slowing down spell acquisition and making loot drops more desirable.  You just need to make sure that all available scrolls are in the loot tables, so that wizards have a decent shot at acquiring spells.

All the other tweaks seem to be counterproductive.  Resting should be mechanically the same for everyone (if a fighter with a high heal skill, heal kits, a bedroll and food can practically regenerate in a 2 hour rest cycle, I don't know why a wizard can't renew their spells). 

Adding more restricted spell schools might be more PnP, but unless you have the ability to hand pick those, I think this might be too unfair, and you might end up with fewer and fewer specialist wizards (bad for player options and RP). 

Spell components and spell books are great in theory and awful in practice, as they would appear to be a logistical nightmare (this is where PnP and computer gaming diverge significantly). 

Limiting wizard bonus feats is not necessary in my view (I think the sorcerer feats suffer from being last in the pack, not wizards from being second to last in the pack). 

Capping the spells that a wizard could learn is a throwback to old, old, old school AD&D, and might be kind of neat, but you would still have to set the cap relatively high to avoid crippling the class -- it would essentially force all wizards to become specialists, since they can't assemble the full spellbook anyway.  They would use their allotment for a core of essential spells, and use the rest for a particular brand of flavor.  Again, kind of neat from an RP standpoint, but I am not sure that the juice is worth the squeeze on that one, as you already have a lot of specialist caster classes available.  There is a value to having generalists, and you want to retain the possibility of a wizard finally getting all the spells for their spellbook (it would be a spur to get that last coveted scroll).

I have noted before that while the desire to mimic the PnP experience as faithfully as possible is laudable, there are practical challenges when a game is converted to computers, and even more so when adapted to real-time online play.  The NWN version of D&D is significantly different (i.e. more limited) from the PnP in some critical mechanical ways, and adaptations are always going to be imperfect, so I am not sure that a unyielding devotion to the 3.5 PnP ruleset is always the wise or practical choice.


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Madame Trousers Son

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2023, 07:00:20 PM »
As I said before I don't think wizards need to be touched at all but I would not mind nerfs. If people want to nerf wizards to solely ward bots, then they will need to pay a premium for a ward bot or risk going through a dungeon without wards

This is it.

Wizards are strong in PvE because dungeoning is vey predictable after you've run the same dungeon 20+ times, and because the rest period is conveniently made shorter for everyone, which abates two of their weaknesses.

You can't fix the first problem because PotM is a persistent world, short of changing every dungeon to be a random mob dungeon. And if you increase waiting times for wizards, really their whole party will end up waiting longer unless there's a convenient inn to run to.
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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2023, 01:47:26 PM »
I personally do not see the need for another wizard nerf. They have already been diminished quite considerably over the years to the “ward bot only” role. If I am being honest the warder role wizards play is crucial in this server, since after all there are no ridiculous items with +5 AC or Mind Immunity helms or whatever. Is up to arcane casters to cover these weaknesses, to make possible going to a dungeon and not dying to the first mob. All that said the warder only role is the most BORING and unfulfilling gameplay any player can experience. I played both sorcerers and wizards up to lvl 20 and while we understand the necessity of wards in a party, every sane player will want to do more than just ward.

Magic is flashy yes, scary maybe, if you are not familiar with it. What makes a wizard powerful is not the magic itself. Is the player’s experience and knowledge they draw upon after running the same encounters again and again. Knowing the mobs weaknesses, saves, behaviour and layout of the dungeons gives the wizard an edge, but this can also be said about any and all other classes. Give a newly misted and a veteran an lvl 20 wizard and tell them to solo something. The results will be noticeably different. I have wailed, kicked and cried every time a nerf has run me over while playing my wizard. But after some time however I have seen the wisdom of these decisions to the point I no longer complain, at least not wholeheartedly anyways.

If any changes are to be implemented I personally would prefare something that adds RP flavour to the class, not only changing core mechanics. Wizards drop their spell book after death? Would be fun to battle your nemesis and steal their arcane knowledge yes. No more scrolls waiting in a store gathering dust for you? Give wizards the ability to create their own! Create a new scroll economy. Maybe it would require more than just a blank scroll, maybe a special ink distilled from Alhoon Ichor (after so many years I still have no clue what good is for). Spell components? Are you sure? Well maybe will stop wizard turning into Dragons just to show off. All in all the developer team does an excellent job for us all without getting a cent for it and they have my thanks! Whatever the community decides to do they have my full support.




cooachlyfe

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2023, 02:37:35 PM »
I personally do not see the need for another wizard nerf. They have already been diminished quite considerably over the years to the “ward bot only” role. If I am being honest the warder role wizards play is crucial in this server, since after all there are no ridiculous items with +5 AC or Mind Immunity helms or whatever. Is up to arcane casters to cover these weaknesses, to make possible going to a dungeon and not dying to the first mob. All that said the warder only role is the most BORING and unfulfilling gameplay any player can experience. I played both sorcerers and wizards up to lvl 20 and while we understand the necessity of wards in a party, every sane player will want to do more than just ward.

Magic is flashy yes, scary maybe, if you are not familiar with it. What makes a wizard powerful is not the magic itself. Is the player’s experience and knowledge they draw upon after running the same encounters again and again. Knowing the mobs weaknesses, saves, behaviour and layout of the dungeons gives the wizard an edge, but this can also be said about any and all other classes. Give a newly misted and a veteran an lvl 20 wizard and tell them to solo something. The results will be noticeably different. I have wailed, kicked and cried every time a nerf has run me over while playing my wizard. But after some time however I have seen the wisdom of these decisions to the point I no longer complain, at least not wholeheartedly anyways.

If any changes are to be implemented I personally would prefare something that adds RP flavour to the class, not only changing core mechanics. Wizards drop their spell book after death? Would be fun to battle your nemesis and steal their arcane knowledge yes. No more scrolls waiting in a store gathering dust for you? Give wizards the ability to create their own! Create a new scroll economy. Maybe it would require more than just a blank scroll, maybe a special ink distilled from Alhoon Ichor (after so many years I still have no clue what good is for). Spell components? Are you sure? Well maybe will stop wizard turning into Dragons just to show off. All in all the developer team does an excellent job for us all without getting a cent for it and they have my thanks! Whatever the community decides to do they have my full support.

+100 to all of this, couldn't have said it better myself

MAB77

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2023, 04:03:03 PM »
I personally do not see the need for another wizard nerf. They have already been diminished quite considerably over the years to the “ward bot only” role. If I am being honest the warder role wizards play is crucial in this server, since after all there are no ridiculous items with +5 AC or Mind Immunity helms or whatever. Is up to arcane casters to cover these weaknesses, to make possible going to a dungeon and not dying to the first mob. All that said the warder only role is the most BORING and unfulfilling gameplay any player can experience. I played both sorcerers and wizards up to lvl 20 and while we understand the necessity of wards in a party, every sane player will want to do more than just ward.

Magic is flashy yes, scary maybe, if you are not familiar with it. What makes a wizard powerful is not the magic itself. Is the player’s experience and knowledge they draw upon after running the same encounters again and again. Knowing the mobs weaknesses, saves, behaviour and layout of the dungeons gives the wizard an edge, but this can also be said about any and all other classes. Give a newly misted and a veteran an lvl 20 wizard and tell them to solo something. The results will be noticeably different. I have wailed, kicked and cried every time a nerf has run me over while playing my wizard. But after some time however I have seen the wisdom of these decisions to the point I no longer complain, at least not wholeheartedly anyways.

If any changes are to be implemented I personally would prefare something that adds RP flavour to the class, not only changing core mechanics. Wizards drop their spell book after death? Would be fun to battle your nemesis and steal their arcane knowledge yes. No more scrolls waiting in a store gathering dust for you? Give wizards the ability to create their own! Create a new scroll economy. Maybe it would require more than just a blank scroll, maybe a special ink distilled from Alhoon Ichor (after so many years I still have no clue what good is for). Spell components? Are you sure? Well maybe will stop wizard turning into Dragons just to show off. All in all the developer team does an excellent job for us all without getting a cent for it and they have my thanks! Whatever the community decides to do they have my full support.

How were wizards nerfed into being ward bots!? None of the recent changes, be it about stackable AOE or to spell effects themselves, have in anyway reduced the potency of wizards vs other classes. Those were required for game balance and impact everyone equally. If your strategy is to always buff all your allies with all the buffing spells available, then yes, what you are is a ward bot. There is nothing wrong in that itself, but that's truly only your choice if you want to be one, not a requirement. Sure, some places will be more demanding than others, but in my experience, parties are often overbuffed for the challenges ahead, it is often sufficient (and more efficient) to only put some key wards on the tanks and help blasting things. Lots of key buffs are also easily accessible through consumables that are easy to acquire, potions and varnishes for instance.

The ability to create scrolls is a serious balance threat for which there is no easy solution. For one thing, it would make it even easier than it is now to acquire all the spells (whereas the reverse would probably be better for balance). Many players would just coordinate themselves to pick different spells on level ups, then scribe them to exchange them. It would also make it easier to make stacks of the most powerful spells for UMD users and that's not particularly desirable server balance wise. Not to mention that we'd suddenly see a lot of shelved wizards return just to scribe scrolls and pass them on to others. I do have an idea to scribe random scrolls from looted spellbooks but it's really just wishful thinking at this time.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 04:06:52 PM by MAB77 »
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MAB

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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2023, 05:21:27 PM »
Fortunately time stop requires dragon blood to scribe, reagents just for scribing scrolls could be the thing to do. No one sells bat guano / sulphur but if you pick it up from X then scribe fireball. Remove scrolls from loot drops and replace them with required reagents for scribing scrolls so its effectively the same.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 05:23:01 PM by zDark Shadowz »

Terant92

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Re: Are Wizards in Need of a Nerf?
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2023, 05:37:49 PM »
I speak only of my own personal experience playing the class and nothing else and of course I can be completely wrong about all this. Wizards in general are the go to class for wards, players accept this when they roll a wiz and other classes expect it of them. When I say wizards were slowly cornered into wards bots I am not referring to any particular changes made. Is just the feel I was left when I shelved mine recently.

A wizard that is stingy with wards and decides to prepare some fireballs instead of more hastes for the party won’t be seen in a favourable light by his teammates, and might struggle to party with the group again if there is a better choice. This actually happened with a group in the Shipwreck where the wizard was blamed for the party’s demise. Leave the blasting to the Warmage!

Like I said previously, I am fully behind any changes or tweaks that the dev team deems necessary to keep balance and fairness for all, I lack the bigger picture and the knowledge to say otherwise. In the end truly I am in favour of no changing the class, but maybe like a lot of people I am just uncomfortable with change. I leave that decision to greater minds than my own. Who knows, maybe this next changes will make me want to experience the wizard’s journey again, just with a different perspective.