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Author Topic: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic  (Read 1642 times)

Evendur

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2022, 02:36:27 AM »
The dominating opinion on this topic seems to be "the Corpsehiding mechanic has flaws but is needed" which I would agree with.
But this also means that we could have a better system in place and as long as it implements comparable consequences more people would be happy with that.

I hope that will be enough for the team to actually consider an alternative.

APorg

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2022, 03:48:32 AM »
I did very much the same things you mentioned, and I just don't see things the same way. I don't believe I mentioned map knowledge in it once, but that's a good addition to the list. On the other hand, trying to reduce the entirety of the situation to 'hide-and-seek RP' is not only misleading, but maliciously facetious and willingly ignores every other point made, whether knowingly or unknowingly. You know well its more nuanced than that if you got that far into the post.

I wasn't challenging your entire argument. I was challenging specific language that is improper, incorrect, and divisive. Like here, where you are calling me "maliciously facetious". You are completely out of line. This is bad faith.

I am not denying that the advantage of map knowledge exists. I am denying that it is an entrenched sort of "class divide" , which is what your language suggests it is. There is nothing "special" about the advantage earned here and to try to portray it through the analogy of the rich-poor comes with a lot of baggage, and is flawed best, offensive at worst. It is simply wrong to use the word "privilege" to describe this, and if you are going to double down on its use, go ahead, but it just decreases the clarity of your argument.

I'm also denying certain of your conclusions, such as that veterans are immune to consequences. I think the idea that anyone can easily drum up enough help to find a corpse-hidden body so as to "shrug it off" is fraught with biased assumptions.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 04:02:32 AM by APorg »
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JayJay

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2022, 04:18:37 AM »
Well said.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2022, 06:04:45 AM »
I think it is safe to assume that there are players whom play primarily with their friends, and that because they do, will usually have a ready plethora of friends who will search for them. I wouldn't deny that; I've witnessed it regularly on this server for years.

What I disagree with is the lack if generosity when calling them cliques. It's such an overused term to define basically anyone who regularly plays the game together, and adds an unnecessary stigma.

This is a video game, at the end of the day. It isn't a simulation, and it isn't PnP. People play with their friends as a social activity, make characters together in group concepts and are generally more well-placed in the server politick as a result. My personal advice would be to make friends, work concepts and ideas, or join in on someone else's ideas to diversify the starting portfolio of contacts your character knows.

Making a lone wolf with the intention to naturally meet and form friendships with people spontaneously who play when you do, match your time zones, or try to run a faction with can be very frustrating due to a myriad of OOC realities. This also means that if your character dies, and you need someone to look for them, the same frustration can accompany it.

My advice in this regard would be to simply set your expectations for reliable comrades with those whom they were made to pair with, and don't put too many eggs in one basket. Have an alt, run the alt while the main is cooling down on dungeons. Run multiple alts. Who cares. The currently server XP Cap encourages multiple characters to circle-dungeoneer with. If you have a back-up, losing the primary won't sting quite so much.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 09:10:52 PM by BraveSirRobin »

APorg

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2022, 06:36:37 AM »
I think it is safe to assume that there are players whom play primarily with their friends, and that because they do, will usually have a ready plethora of friends who will search for them. I wouldn't deny that; I've witnessed it regularly on this server for years.

Yes. But I don't think even many veteran players are that good at the hide-and-seek minigame, frankly; and you can't assume those who are, will have the time. That's what I mean by fraught assumptions.

Certainly none of this justifies abusing the definition of the word "privilege" to provocatively imply there is a set of people for whom no consequences can be imposed. In the five past incidents of corpse-hiding I can personally recall, one was never found and had to be respawned, one was found by sheer dumb luck, and three were negotiated out. None of this is consequence-free.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 07:57:10 AM by APorg »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
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VaeVictis

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2022, 09:56:30 AM »
I did very much the same things you mentioned, and I just don't see things the same way. I don't believe I mentioned map knowledge in it once, but that's a good addition to the list. On the other hand, trying to reduce the entirety of the situation to 'hide-and-seek RP' is not only misleading, but maliciously facetious and willingly ignores every other point made, whether knowingly or unknowingly. You know well its more nuanced than that if you got that far into the post.

I wasn't challenging your entire argument. I was challenging specific language that is improper, incorrect, and divisive. Like here, where you are calling me "maliciously facetious". You are completely out of line. This is bad faith.

I am not denying that the advantage of map knowledge exists. I am denying that it is an entrenched sort of "class divide" , which is what your language suggests it is. There is nothing "special" about the advantage earned here and to try to portray it through the analogy of the rich-poor comes with a lot of baggage, and is flawed best, offensive at worst. It is simply wrong to use the word "privilege" to describe this, and if you are going to double down on its use, go ahead, but it just decreases the clarity of your argument.

I'm also denying certain of your conclusions, such as that veterans are immune to consequences. I think the idea that anyone can easily drum up enough help to find a corpse-hidden body so as to "shrug it off" is fraught with biased assumptions.
I find myself your own presentation to be in bad faith, and I feel the perpetuation of the angle it takes to be mildly disingenious in the way it comes off, though I don't believe it to be intentional. Building it up against the idea that there is something to be said about what is ultimately naturally occurring. In this or any other server, or community. Your choice of words would make it seem as if their worth, or rectitude about possessing of such is being called into question. It is not. It never has been.

The word chosen fit the description, by definition.

Cambride Dictionary: "A special advantage or authority possessed by a particular person or group."

I regret you feel otherwise. We can agree to disagree on it. Perhaps we had different definitions in mind, which is why I already quoted the one I was using.

You don't consider yourself privileged over a new player with no knowledge of the server, no friends or contacts IC or OOC, and no presence. Security and knowledge from years of playing the server, and learning the many, many FOIG nuances of it. I do consider myself privileged in that regard, with all the knowledge acquired, acquaitances and friends I've made over the years, and I can sympathize with the insecurity mentioned by new or prospective players when they feel anxious at the possibility of being corpse-hid versus the calm that is acquired after years of play, or having an established character with the advantages it affords. The dread is not because it will, but because it could. And you just don't know.

I think it is safe to assume that there are players whom play primarily with their friends, and that because they do, will usually have a ready plethora of friends who will search for them. I wouldn't deny that; I've witnessed it regularly on this server for years.

Yes.

That was all.

Back to the main topic:

My desire is to propose (rules as written) that characters should be offered terms of surrender after defeat, before resorting to corpse hiding. This would help curb everyone's dread about the subject. If the character accepts, they must abide by it and they are spared it. They roleplay out their defeat and the consequences. If they don't want to capitulate they are free to ride it out to the end and be hidden.

I am not talking about 'opt in', because conflict between characters is natural and one of the main sources of entertainment and consquences. I am talking about corpse-hiding alone.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 10:14:11 AM by VaeVictis »

APorg

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2022, 10:18:43 AM »
Again, there is nothing "special" about the advantage. Anyone can gain it.

You have pre-emptively tried to portray people who disagree with you as hypocrites, labelled me as "maliciously facetious" when I called corpse-hiding a hide-and-seek game (Which it is. I did not say it was a good game. Or that it is a perfectly fair and balanced game. But it is a game.), and now "disingenuous" because I haven't combed through every dictionary I could find to discovers a definition of the word "privilege" that agrees with yours. I'm not going to debate you. I'm just going to start mashing the report button every time I see more of this pattern of behaviour to minimise the validity of other people's experiences. It's disrespectful. Stop it.
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MAB77

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2022, 10:42:33 AM »
I will ask everyone here to take a step back and focus on the subject at hand please or we'll close the thread.

For my part, my experience is that corpsehiding rarely escalates into an issue where DMs have to intervene. Not always, but most of the time it is done somewhat reasonably (and that for the extremely few times where it actually happen). I see little need to act directly against it.

Perhaps what we need are simply alternatives on what could be done with a player corpse. Ransoming corpses is already something that can be done, and probably is the best way to go RP wise. An idea that was once proposed and that I like was the possibility of bringing a corpse to a darkling to revive it, but in so doing afflicting the character with a temporary curse, something that lasts 2-3 months. If you would have other suggestions, lay them here.
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Exordium

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2022, 10:42:57 AM »
Yeah, please tone down with the language that is easily interpreted as very accusatory (or borderline insulting). Otherwise, we'll have to close the topic or do some other moderation stuff.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to this idea that there's a degree of privilege for being a veteran player. But privilege is often taken with a very negative load. There are privileges that are basically impossible to avoid; if someone understands a system better than someone else, they have an advantage. I'd propose that advantage is the more accurate and less loaded term here.

The new player experience is something that has been attempted to be improved many times over PoTM's history. The developers, DMs, mods, and CCs are definitely not unempathetic to the fact that newbies can feel quite overwhelmed here. I don't feel corpsehiding is really a big factor in that, though.

It is OK to disagree with a mechanic and propose its changing. But please do it constructively, in this case, meaning without pre-emptively accusing others of hypocrisy or so. Phrasing yourself constructively and politely will help with getting your point across, too.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 10:46:47 AM by Exordium »

Avela

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2022, 12:12:34 PM »
I've taken part in corpse hunting a bit, so I guess I'll add a little, though to be honest I've only been the one to look for the corpse- never the one to hide it or be important enough to be slayed and hidden (though the latter is an achievement I strive towards to one day have accomplished)

I will say, from the standpoint of -looking- for a corpse is not overly thrilling in my opinion. Initially there is a lot of excitement and this feeling of priority... though I feel like that quickly devolves into my character running around maps aimlessly by themselves after not finding the body a couple of days later. And to me that's -painfully- boring. But I do it because it is more often than not something my character would do. Even if you have a hunting buddy, which does significantly make the RP, well, -there-, it can get dull. Although I'm sure circumstances like who your character is, what they know, what skills they have, all impact the outcome- and my characters tend to be more RP so their practical skills can be limited.

I'm not in love with it, but I think it should definitely stay a thing. People can be resurrected but only if you have the body right there? It seems pretty natural villains would go and hide the bodies at least in some circumstances. Although I also agree kidnapping and interrogation, etc, would leave more room for actual RP at least with the victim and the kidnapper, and people could still go looking for the one that was taken. Though at this point kidnapping is, as far as I'm aware, done via some method of corpsing somebody and bringing them over somewhere to be raised again. Would be cool if we could subdue people and drag them off without killing them, as I think that's a little more realistic and less, well, bloody, but I don't know how that would be implemented.

Overall though, I think the system is flawed, but fine. It's gotten us this far, and I haven't heard about a drove of massive issues surrounding it because people tend to conduct themselves fine. But again, limited experience, and by the time I got to this thread there were -so- many responses that I mostly just skimmed through to be completely honest...

TDLR: Do I think corpse hiding should stay a thing? Yes. Would I be upset if there were changes made to said corpse hiding? Most likely not.
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ladylena

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2022, 12:23:24 PM »
I will ask everyone here to take a step back and focus on the subject at hand please or we'll close the thread.

For my part, my experience is that corpsehiding rarely escalates into an issue where DMs have to intervene. Not always, but most of the time it is done somewhat reasonably (and that for the extremely few times where it actually happen). I see little need to act directly against it.

Perhaps what we need are simply alternatives on what could be done with a player corpse. Ransoming corpses is already something that can be done, and probably is the best way to go RP wise. An idea that was once proposed and that I like was the possibility of bringing a corpse to a darkling to revive it, but in so doing afflicting the character with a temporary curse, something that lasts 2-3 months. If you would have other suggestions, lay them here.

Ressurection with a curse is really cool! I guess you could also go down the doctor morreau road and attempt to attach extra or foreign things which could make the character quite disturbing and direct them to some sort of surgeon or something for removal.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2022, 01:29:51 PM »
I don't want to wake up with a tail.

A way to subdual people into unconsciousness instead of dead bodies would be nice. Instead of being sent to the near ethereal on a subdual-strike below -1 HP they would be sent to a black room, that either after X amount of time has them wake up with a daze/ & heavy exhaustion effect (concussion) or can be woken up earlier with smelling salts.

Being able to put people unconscious would be useful in PvP in groups since the current bleedout-healup mechanic makes it awkward to keep folks entirely out of the fight, and killing folks outright instead of rendering them unconscious for carrying means kidnapping / interrogation requires raise dead.

It'd also allow some intermediary roleplay between a fight and a corpsehide to occur, since they can be taken away unconscious, revived, only to be told whats about to happen to them before being slain (and then having an opportunity for a last ditch negotiation & conversation with their captors.)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 01:31:58 PM by zDark Shadowz »

APorg

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2022, 01:32:00 PM »
^ Strong agreement. The inability to abduct a PC without either their full OOC cooperation or killing them creates an awkward type of escalation in itself.
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ladylena

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2022, 02:22:31 PM »
being able to do that would be the absolute best solution to so many issues.

It can be difficult to do it properly unless you have massive stealth or constantly emote it, sneaks can see things like a character following another and assume something instead of the reality of the situation. So yeah a way to carry around an unconcious character would really solve a lot of issues around corpsing characters.
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HirtZirk

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2022, 03:30:40 PM »
I vote for :
-Vistanie make pay the same amount it would cost to raise the body to move it to another domain.
-PVP badly impairing a body = perma death

Hiding body should be ok with those two modification since less incentive and existing alternative.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2022, 04:00:18 PM »
Just posting to support the "subdual alternative to corpse" because I have always liked it a lot.
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MAB77

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2022, 04:45:21 PM »
I vote for :
-Vistanie make pay the same amount it would cost to raise the body to move it to another domain.
-PVP badly impairing a body = perma death

Hiding body should be ok with those two modification since less incentive and existing alternative.

The Vistani suggestion cannot be implemented for reasons EO already explained.

As for the second, we will never ever give players the capacity to force closure another. It is resolutely against our philosophy and intent.
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TacticalFerret

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2022, 07:27:52 PM »
Rather than bemoan a system that emphasizes consequences for IC actions, perhaps we should be encouraging the "victim" to closure their characters in these instances.

I am fully aware of how much it sucks to have your corpse hidden and have your most beloved character unavailable to play for a time. But this mindset of "I must finish telling my story" is, in my mind, really toxic. There's nothing stopping anyone from creating a new character that they will inevitably fall in love with.

The story must come to an end at some point. I am aligned with this. There is a risk of a character's chapter being cut short by nature of engaging in cooperative storytelling with others.

Forte

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2022, 10:54:47 PM »
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.

The rules barely accommodate the actual intricacies of involved conflict. 'Want less consequences, be lower level' when half the the enjoyment of playing the game is the progression and roleplay involved WITH progressing as players, this seems shortsighted, and mildly rude, at worst.
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noah25

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2022, 11:10:10 PM »
As someone who has been corpse hid on multiple characters and been mad about it every time at the time, I actually don't think corpse hiding is the issue. The mechanic itself makes sense and isn't, at least in my experience, what leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It's how the PVP comes to be and how it plays out. In my experience when I have had bad PVP experiences the common denominator has been:

-Poor communication between those involved about what the final outcome might look like

-Ambiguity around what we have and haven't consented or bought into

-Disagreement around understanding of what the PVP rules are in extremely bizarre and hard to anticipate circumstances

-One or more parties becoming more concerned with winning than storytelling

When I sat down and thought about it I never had any issue with the fact my body was hid. It felt like a natural consequence. Its WHY I WAS DEAD that always bothered me. My advice would be worry less about the mechanics of the PVP and more about:

-Am I ready to let this character go?
-Is this a player/players I want to be involved in PVP with? Some players I just know im not compatible with and I will avoid them.
-Is a physical altercation the next right step? It always sounds fun, but its usually an hour of chasing each other and adrenaline pumping and then the story arc is over and someone is upset. Usually, finding ways to weaken each other or increase tension are far more rewarding than drawing the sword.
-Am I clear on the PVP rules? They are fairly broadly open to interpretation. The longer I have been on the server the more I have tried to avoid potential gray area and spend more time collaborating with the player I am in conflict with rather than trying to best them.

ZSRunner

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2022, 11:15:49 PM »
I wonder if it would be possible to insert a mechanic that counted the number of times a body was badly impared and then open a dialogue that suggests character closure after a specified amount.

The idea being something like this:

"Hello prisoner,

It appears your corpse has been badly impared 23 times. While there is no requirement to closure your character, and none but a DM can enforce this closure, it might be time to start thinking about moving on to to a new adventure and letting this one end for the betterment of the community as a whole.

We wish you the very best of luck. Blah blah blah"

If it were possible, that script could potentially even be scripted to pop up after lets say 10th level or something. It imposes nothing, only suggests. I think something like that would go a long way to encourage players to start fresh and let the past go.

Famous Seamus

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2022, 11:38:53 PM »
I wonder if it would be possible to insert a mechanic that counted the number of times a body was badly impared and then open a dialogue that suggests character closure after a specified amount.

The idea being something like this:

"Hello prisoner,

It appears your corpse has been badly impared 23 times. While there is no requirement to closure your character, and none but a DM can enforce this closure, it might be time to start thinking about moving on to to a new adventure and letting this one end for the betterment of the community as a whole.

We wish you the very best of luck. Blah blah blah"

If it were possible, that script could potentially even be scripted to pop up after lets say 10th level or something. It imposes nothing, only suggests. I think something like that would go a long way to encourage players to start fresh and let the past go.

I don't mean for this to come across the wrong way, but it seems to me that such a script could be mistaken as condescending and slightly belittling, even if it isn't meant to be. Being badly impaired is frustrating enough without having to get a popup encouraging you to kill off the character, especially if the death and impairment happen due to an accident (e.g., friendly fire) or an unexpected fluke, so to speak.

Moreover, it seems unnecessary to nudge players to closure a character. Each player is the chief actor/author of their character's story, and while some have realized their craft more fully than others, we should trust that they're sufficiently attuned to their character enough to know when feels like a good time to closure. If the argument is that enough players aren't realizing that closure is a fulfilling option, it may just be because they don't yet feel fulfilled doing it. They'll know when the time is right for them.

Having said that, if the idea is to encourage players to expand their horizons, up to and including closure, after being badly impaired X number of times (or even the first time), a script that explains what being badly impaired is and encourages creativity doesn't seem completely unfitting. For instance:

"Hello, prisoner,

"It appears your corpse has been badly impaired. This means your character has either died due to tremendous violence or has had their remains butchered or desecrated after their death. Both of these could be considered deeply traumatic experiences. We encourage you to consider what impact (lasting or otherwise) such would have on your character upon their return to life or--if you wish--whether this results in their final death. Understand that nothing is required, but that this presents another roleplay opportunity for you.

"We wish you the very best. Etc. Etc. Etc."

I've seen several characters acquire physical or psychological scars as the result of being badly impaired. While impairment--whether the first or fifteenth time--can be an opportunity to lower the curtain for the final time, it can just as easily (if you'll forgive the pun) breathe new life into a story or give it a new direction.


ZSRunner

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2022, 11:46:21 PM »
I wonder if it would be possible to insert a mechanic that counted the number of times a body was badly impared and then open a dialogue that suggests character closure after a specified amount.

The idea being something like this:

"Hello prisoner,

It appears your corpse has been badly impared 23 times. While there is no requirement to closure your character, and none but a DM can enforce this closure, it might be time to start thinking about moving on to to a new adventure and letting this one end for the betterment of the community as a whole.

We wish you the very best of luck. Blah blah blah"

If it were possible, that script could potentially even be scripted to pop up after lets say 10th level or something. It imposes nothing, only suggests. I think something like that would go a long way to encourage players to start fresh and let the past go.

I don't mean for this to come across the wrong way, but it seems to me that such a script could be mistaken as condescending and slightly belittling, even if it isn't meant to be. Being badly impaired is frustrating enough without having to get a popup encouraging you to kill off the character, especially if the death and impairment happen due to an accident (e.g., friendly fire) or an unexpected fluke, so to speak.

Moreover, it seems unnecessary to nudge players to closure a character. Each player is the chief actor/author of their character's story, and while some have realized their craft more fully than others, we should trust that they're sufficiently attuned to their character enough to know when feels like a good time to closure. If the argument is that enough players aren't realizing that closure is a fulfilling option, it may just be because they don't yet feel fulfilled doing it. They'll know when the time is right for them.

Having said that, if the idea is to encourage players to expand their horizons, up to and including closure, after being badly impaired X number of times (or even the first time), a script that explains what being badly impaired is and encourages creativity doesn't seem completely unfitting. For instance:

"Hello, prisoner,

"It appears your corpse has been badly impaired. This means your character has either died due to tremendous violence or has had their remains butchered or desecrated after their death. Both of these could be considered deeply traumatic experiences. We encourage you to consider what impact (lasting or otherwise) such would have on your character upon their return to life or--if you wish--whether this results in their final death. Understand that nothing is required, but that this presents another roleplay opportunity for you.

"We wish you the very best. Etc. Etc. Etc."

I've seen several characters acquire physical or psychological scars as the result of being badly impaired. While impairment--whether the first or fifteenth time--can be an opportunity to lower the curtain for the final time, it can just as easily (if you'll forgive the pun) breathe new life into a story or give it a new direction.

You get it! I was being slightly comical with the wording, but the intent is the same. The idea being that the player involved should take the time to evaluate what it means, why it happened and how it will affect them moving forward.

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  • Posts: 444
Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2022, 11:50:59 PM »
You get it! I was being slightly comical with the wording, but the intent is the same. The idea being that the player involved should take the time to evaluate what it means, why it happened and how it will affect them moving forward.

Ah. I regret taking that too literally.  :D   I do agree that considering new angles is definitely worth it. Good thought.


Phayviel

  • New to the Mists
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  • Posts: 5
Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2022, 07:13:13 AM »
Bit of a sidetrack, sorry. But I had never heard of corpse hiding before this or hadn't seen it in any other server. And reading it, I'm having some questions that might help any other newbies reading, too.

- How often does this happen? How likely it is going to happen if I just play normally?

- How is this moderated? Is it possible that PvP-optimized character Edgelordus Mortus The Third will just jump up in and practically perma-kill me just because someone had a slow day at work? Is it going to happen now just because I made this post?

- How likely is it that playing on this server, this is going to happen eventually? Because it sounds incredibly tedious and anti-RP just from the descriptions here.

I would love to hear this since it would make it easier to figure out how much I actually want to mentally invest here in long-term stuff.