Author Topic: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic  (Read 1821 times)

Evendur

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Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« on: November 29, 2022, 06:03:44 AM »
Corpsehiding on Potm is an important mechanic to enforce serious consequences as a result of PvP.
But it is also a mechanic that feels very OOC to many since it will be another player who determines if one gets to play a character for a significant amount of time.
As much as it is accepted within the veteran player base, whenever this mechanic comes up in a discussion with newer players it becomes apparent how much this is despised.
Even if new players may at some point understand why this system has been established in order to put some weight on character decisions in conflict, it is still a very unpleasant mechanic.
So lets see if we can replace it while maintaining the same consequences but without leading to ooc friction.



Some ideas:

When one character is killed by another player character, the respawn mechanic could be changed to add a timer that prevents the effects of resurrection.

The timer, could depend on:

- the character level
- the number of previous PvP death, possibly with an expiration timer that fades over time like ocr does

Example:

A lvl 10 character is killed for the first time in PvP, a timeout is set to 24 hours

At lvl 20, the first PvP death could be something like one week.


Any consequent death could result in a timer that is either doubled or tripled (or whatever seems appropriate to the team in order to implement comparable consequences to the current system)

Replacing the current corpsehiding rules with a mechanical feature that is a direct consequence of the characters death instead of consequences enforced by another player would reduce ooc conflict potential by a lot and especially for new players would allow to embrace this part of the game without all the issues it has now.


As a result, a characters death as a consequence of PvP would actually gain a lot more meaning then what we have now. Instead of bad blood between players, it will enforce an impact on a characters story.
In many cases, characters who die in conflict return rather quickly, especially because many don't like to do corpsehiding or even if they accept it, they dont care for all the hatred and rumor mongering that will always follow.

Changing the mechanic from a very ooc corpsehiding rule to an automated consequence that is enforced by the engine would solve a lot of this and probably increase the actual consequences of both conflict and character death.

Ideally we would also have a mechanic to render another character unconscious (like in subdual mode) with the option to carry them as suggested here https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=64568.msg744120#msg744120 in order to add more options in conflict as well

As it is now, I don't think many players really enjoy PvP conflict as much as they could and I believe we could change that by replacing the current mechanic.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 06:07:33 AM by Evendur »

Anastian

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2022, 06:30:27 AM »
Starting from the fact PvP through mechanical killing should be a last resort as there are several other ways to build up PvP without fighting, and from the idea that you, by the rules, shouldn't PvP With someone you have ooc gripes with, here are my two cents.

I like the concept of reducing the respawn timer but tripling it if there are multiple PvP deaths. However, the respawn mechanic can be abused too during PvP conflicts even though it entails a serious loss of XP at higher levels: I would refrain from making the timer shorter. Also, bear in mind that if you got into conflict without defusing, you are accepting the risk so trivialising a PvP death shouldn't be possible in our setting
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Evendur

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2022, 06:34:44 AM »
Starting from the fact PvP through mechanical killing should be a last resort as there are several other ways to build up PvP without fighting, and from the idea that you, by the rules, shouldn't PvP With someone you have ooc gripes with, here are my two cents.

I like the concept of reducing the respawn timer but tripling it if there are multiple PvP deaths. However, the respawn mechanic can be abused too during PvP conflicts even though it entails a serious loss of XP at higher levels: I would refrain from making the timer shorter. Also, bear in mind that if you got into conflict without defusing, you are accepting the risk so trivialising a PvP death shouldn't be possible in our setting

I think there is a little misunderstanding here. I did not intend to refer to the existing respawn timer but rather suggest a new timer altogether.
And I would like to reemphasize that the consequences are not intended to be different or even trivial compared to the existing system.

Ryujin

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2022, 06:52:13 AM »
If with this timer you mean that whenever a character is corpsed by another player, they can't be revived before that time has passed then it's an automatic hard-pass for me.

Accidental death by players exists, such as when a low level, inexperienced mage accidentally fireballs their group to death. There is no way to distinguish that from an actual PVP death as per a system.
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Evendur

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2022, 07:04:50 AM »
If with this timer you mean that whenever a character is corpsed by another player, they can't be revived before that time has passed ...

That is what I had in mind.

There is no way to distinguish that from an actual PVP death as per a system.

Sure there is, thats why you need to hostile before PvP.

And even if there may be any details to solve, this thread is meant to look at alternatives to the current system in general.

Chadyo

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2022, 07:52:32 AM »
I would change the subject of this post to -delete- the corpsehiding mechanic.

I've always been amazed by the fact corpse hiding is somehow allowed? Corpse hiding has the possibility to be utter toxic and has been used in that toxic sense before. You're denying someone else their character and the roleplay it's staggering that it's just a legal thing that's fully tolerated. Other roleplaying universes and places I've roleplayed on always had rules to stop anything like kidnapping and imprisonment grieving.

If you kill someone in a domain, then transport their corpse from one domain to the other to find the most remote corner to put a body without giving players a few hints to find it is just downright grieving and should not be tolerated. You might hate each other IC but it shouldn't and can't ever lead to someone not being able to play a character for an extend period of time. Every PVP fight that happens on this server is an all out battle without roleplay, or any kind of satisfaction. Because you need to be the winner otherwise you get corpse hidden.

There's also no system to prevent someone from placing a corpse in an area that's 'illegal' I know of a few cases where a body was placed in an area that wasn't allowed. Leading to the only option of when you search for a corpse you first have to ask a DM if it's in a legal spot or not otherwise I wouldn't even bother. I was working on making a post such as this myself to protest against the fact corpse hiding exists and I've documented every case of corpse hiding i've known/witnessed . So if there is a DM or a Dev who's going to push for a change for this feel free to contact me and I'll provide you with everything.

I know about the scrying system, but it's ineffective and still does not solve anything else. Someone really determined can just keep moving the corpse. It is possible in theory to deny someone ever playing on POTM again if you devoted the time and resources to it.

Some of the suggestions I would make:

1. Make rules to encourage roleplaying with your prisoner/kidnapped victim (Not everyone enjoys playing alts)
2. Make an option where you can take a corpse beyond a badly impaired, like the burned down skull that we used to have and put it on a 7/14/30 day timer that someone in the spirit world can see counting down rather then leave it up to others to find it.

If no-one likes that, or wants to do that then at least put in some rules that

3. Stop people from putting bodies in the remotest corner.
4. Taking it out of the domain in which it was killed (Vistani would not let you bring a body into a carriage, and if you approach with a man sized bag they are going to be sus)
5. Or apply what the Brotherhood of the whip recently did? A trade for a location of a body creates roleplay and is a fantastic idea. But just keep the demands reasonable. (I don't know the full details)

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« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 07:54:55 AM by Chadyo »

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 08:09:59 AM »
Quote
I know about the scrying system, but it's ineffective and still does not solve anything else. Someone really determined can just keep moving the corpse. It is possible in theory to deny someone ever playing on POTM again if you devoted the time and resources to it.

Not really since anyone can respawn after a certain amount of time, even when the body has been mutilated.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2022, 08:25:48 AM »
Quote
I know about the scrying system, but it's ineffective and still does not solve anything else. Someone really determined can just keep moving the corpse. It is possible in theory to deny someone ever playing on POTM again if you devoted the time and resources to it.

Not really since anyone can respawn after a certain amount of time, even when the body has been mutilated.

An average player will do 2 months per level beyond level 15.

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I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 08:33:36 AM by Chadyo »

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2022, 08:32:33 AM »
I do think there should be more tools for players to pvp with each other and create scenes after the pvp is over - such as interrogations, imprisonments and the like. I personally think that creating mechanical frameworks for, say, imprisoning a player (who can then be broken out of their 'prison' by their allies, if they figure out where they are held), would create much more roleplay than corpsehiding, which is a method of dealing consequences that is very limited in scope. It's the self-directed jank method instead of a structured roleplaying opportunity. It is rare that your run of the mill conflict that ends in corpsing ends in the losing side wanting to closure as a result. So there should be mechanical encouragement of creating roleplay beyond that.

Of course in the end, much of this will rely on amicable OOC communication and brainstorming between both sides of a conflict. Sharing of ideas for directions towards where the conflict could go that satisfy both sides (no need to discuss details there at all, it can simply be a discussion of what both sides want out of the conflict in RP terms or for their characters). Thinking of ways to enforce consequences ICly without needing to result in closure or a character being out of roleplay for days, weeks or months. And so on.
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Vallaki Justice

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2022, 08:38:38 AM »
The sad truth is that the only real meaningful consequence players can inflict on each other right now is corpsehiding.

I don't think what you're suggesting is too different from what corpsehiding is now. The end result is that players cannot play their PCs for a set time and it no longer rewards veteran players for having OOC server knowledge of the best spots to hide bodies at.

In truth, I am on the fence about it. I think that if corpsehiding is done right, there can be a LOT of roleplay created. But too often it is not. Too often someone will just be chucked somewhere and forgotten for a while after the initial search parties exhaust themselves.



I think that a better way to do this is to have players killed in PvP suffer "mortal wounds." Regardless of level, it would be up to the player to roleplay this out how they wish, be it they are afraid of true death, they experience trauma from their demise, or they have suffered a grievous wound and cannot return to battle. I think you should be "banned" from rejoining the conflict offensively during this time, only being allowed to defend yourself or flee if you come in contact with the person again. Perhaps after the first death you have to wait three days.  After the second death you wait a week. After the third a month. And then you cannot rejoin the conflict if you die that fourth time.

I don't think this needs much of a mechanical system to support, either.

Edit: I'll clarify too, I mean players who are corpsed would suffer these effects. This way it shouldn't effect AMPCs who tend to subdue people for their scenes and only corpse people who are problematic.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 08:47:45 AM by Look Man »

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2022, 08:46:47 AM »
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.

Ryujin

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2022, 08:48:12 AM »

I think that a better way to do this is to have players killed in PvP suffer "mortal wounds." Regardless of level, It would be up to the player to roleplay this out how they wish, be it they are afraid of true death, they experience trauma from their demise, or they have suffered a grievous wound and cannot return to battle. I think you should be "banned" from rejoining the conflict offensively during this time, only being allowed to defend yourself or flee if you come in contact with the person again. Perhaps after the first death you have to wait three days.  After the second death you wait a week. After the third a month. And then you cannot rejoin the conflict if you die that fourth time.

I don't think this needs much of a mechanical system to support, either.

I like this idea. If in an event a player ends up dying, or taken out by the other side, currently what happens is they get revived and then just go back at it with a vengeance. In the end having achieved nothing for either side. The only current solution to prevent such a thing is corpsehiding, which can be perceived as toxic, and DM's can't always oversee corpsehiding things. I would be all for a system, or rulechange, that says that "If in a conflict, a player dies or is taken out to/by the opposing side, they are unable to join back into the fight immediatly after reviving". maybe give it a cooldown of 7-14 days before they might be able to rejoin. This way at least there would be -something- accomplished in the conflict, without having to resort to corpsehiding.
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Chadyo

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2022, 09:05:22 AM »
Quote
I don't know how many levels it would cost me, but you are only proving the fact that players can grief each other even more then is already possible by actually downleveling eachother taking months of progress away from someone who had to spend a considerable amount of time for that. This isn't a solution, this is fuel.

I have little sympathy for high levels involved in conflict; with our rules in place, the character must have sought into the conflict. If it's a high level character, it's likely a veteran. Want less consequences for dying? Be lower level; shorter time to respawn, less XP loss. Or don't get involved in conflict, that also works.

This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.

Why does the level of someone matter in this case? Is this is a server about levels or about roleplay?

I avoid PVP like the plague, and in my entire time here I've only had to do so twice as an PC which were both resolved in a very good fashion but I've seen many examples where people were hidden for up to months at a time.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2022, 09:06:49 AM »
For me it comes back to one simple thing: You are always allowed to opt-out of conflicts that might lead to corpsehiding. Very very few people get corpse-hiding for no reason, and usually the DMs will intervene to help such person.

Conflict needs to have some consequences to it. And while corpsehiding is not the perfect solution, it is currently what we have and people need to get used to it. If you do not want to get corpsehidden, then donít participate in said conflict.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2022, 09:07:24 AM »
I do think there should be more tools for players to pvp with each other and create scenes after the pvp is over - such as interrogations, imprisonments and the like. I personally think that creating mechanical frameworks for, say, imprisoning a player [snip] would create much more roleplay than corpsehiding, which is a method of dealing consequences that is very limited in scope.

I really like this idea. Ways of enforcing consequences that don't involve killing. Could a dev comment on whether or not this is possible, please?

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2022, 09:14:22 AM »
Quote
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.

By involving himself in the conflict, the paladin will likely impose consequences on the antagonist, so it's only fair he has something to risk. If he's high level, his impact on the conflict will be even greater. Or should consequences only be imposed on the evil antagonist in this situation? That doesn't seem fair to the other player.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2022, 09:15:08 AM »
Imprisonments are almost worse than corpsehiding, IMO. Having your playtime -maybe- dependant on the schedule of another is far worse than taking a break from the character until the timer ticks by and you can force respawn.

A really important thing to remember is that corpsehiding is just a time out. Your story is not over.

The DM team is really good about making sure that the people who have been hiding have fulfilled the PvP opt in requirements. In a game where it takes months, if not years, to hit max level, a couple months timeout for extreme player conflict development seems reasonable to me and appropriate to reflect the gravitas of it.
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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2022, 09:18:09 AM »
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.
Nobody should play a paladin if they're not willing to be a part of conflict. A paladin's very nature should demand confrontation against evil players and behavior, up to and including PVP. And it's just as likely to result in the evil person being tucked away in a corner if they lose. That's the only consequence the server has to offer for antagonistic behavior ICly and even with corpsehiding, people can be found, come back, and do the same things that got them corpsehidden in the first place. I think corpsehiding is fine, especially with the changes allowing you to scry or resurrect eventually no matter what. It's more lenient than some servers, it's less lenient than others. It may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a death system on any server that satisfied everyone and didn't have a mountain of complaints.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 09:19:48 AM by Cypher »

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2022, 09:25:16 AM »
Imprisonment rhymes with faction only locations and locks, I'm afraid.

Apart from that, there are very very few places a high level mage or beguiler are not allowed to enter. And maybe rightly so, thats their job, but the cost is to trivialize the process of entering in PVP.

I hate pvp with a passion. I do my best to avoid it even if i have to bend backwards. I only have been in one PVP against another player and i still remember the adrenaline rush and i didnt like it.

What I could think of is every PVP between players to be assigned and moderated by a CC in order to insure a correct development of what is happening, so that every side is treated fair and not grieved too much because reasons. I am not aware of the exact number of player versus fellow player (so no (A)MPCs) feuds, but i would like to imagine they are not that many -I say that because i always have been fine with how (A)MPC treated me and their purpose is to entertain people by telling compelling stories. If there were a "case official" maybe corpse hiding wouldnt be necessary.
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Chadyo

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2022, 09:31:31 AM »
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.
Nobody should play a paladin if they're not willing to be a part of conflict. A paladin's very nature should demand confrontation against evil players and behavior, up to and including PVP. And it's just as likely to result in the evil person being tucked away in a corner if they lose. That's the only consequence the server has to offer for antagonistic behavior ICly and even with corpsehiding, people can be found, come back, and do the same things that got them corpsehidden in the first place. I think corpsehiding is fine, especially with the changes allowing you to scry or resurrect eventually no matter what. It's more lenient than some servers, it's less lenient than others. It may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a death system on any server that satisfied everyone and didn't have a mountain of complaints.

Anyone should be able to play anything they want without being opened to just openly being grieved for their choice of character they play. Wether it's a paladin, or a lawful good necromancer. I've never had the need or the desire to corpse hide anyone on any of my AMPC's because it brings nothing to the story, you can't force closure someone and corpse hiding a desperate half measure attempt in between attempting to closure someone.

Now someone who constantly gets involved and constant attacks you again can get annoying, and eventually someone needs to feel some consequences of their actions but corpse hiding for extended periods of time isn't the method.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2022, 09:34:32 AM »
Rather than bemoan a system that emphasizes consequences for IC actions, perhaps we should be encouraging the "victim" to closure their characters in these instances.

I am fully aware of how much it sucks to have your corpse hidden and have your most beloved character unavailable to play for a time. But this mindset of "I must finish telling my story" is, in my mind, really toxic. There's nothing stopping anyone from creating a new character that they will inevitably fall in love with.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2022, 09:36:25 AM »
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.
Nobody should play a paladin if they're not willing to be a part of conflict. A paladin's very nature should demand confrontation against evil players and behavior, up to and including PVP. And it's just as likely to result in the evil person being tucked away in a corner if they lose. That's the only consequence the server has to offer for antagonistic behavior ICly and even with corpsehiding, people can be found, come back, and do the same things that got them corpsehidden in the first place. I think corpsehiding is fine, especially with the changes allowing you to scry or resurrect eventually no matter what. It's more lenient than some servers, it's less lenient than others. It may not be perfect, but I haven't seen a death system on any server that satisfied everyone and didn't have a mountain of complaints.

Anyone should be able to play anything they want without being opened to just openly being grieved for their choice of character they play. Wether it's a paladin, or a lawful good necromancer. I've never had the need or the desire to corpse hide anyone on any of my AMPC's because it brings nothing to the story, you can't force closure someone and corpse hiding a desperate half measure attempt in between attempting to closure someone.

Now someone who constantly gets involved and constant attacks you again can get annoying, and eventually someone needs to feel some consequences of their actions but corpse hiding for extended periods of time isn't the method.

You say this isnít the way, but you donít bring any suggestion to the table to stop people who just come right back in after dying. How would you stop these people from just coming back over and over again to try and kill the opposing PC?

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2022, 09:38:27 AM »
Quote
This is an extremely black and white view, a paladin can't stand there and allow evil people to abuse others. Forcing him into a possible PVP situation and what would he be rewarded with should said evil person be unreasonable? Months of being tucked away in a corner until he finally accepts the XP penalty. There is absolutely people who get involved in conflict even though they have no desire to do so.

By involving himself in the conflict, the paladin will likely impose consequences on the antagonist, so it's only fair he has something to risk. If he's high level, his impact on the conflict will be even greater. Or should consequences only be imposed on the evil antagonist in this situation? That doesn't seem fair to the other player.

Bingo.

With great powers come great consequences. It act as a nice deterrent for the higher ups to not brandish their twenty or something levels of powerbuild lavishly.

Also: the whole concept of roleplaying is about tellin stories. Dieing is also part of the story.
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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2022, 09:42:51 AM »
You say this isnít the way, but you donít bring any suggestion to the table to stop people who just come right back in after dying. How would you stop these people from just coming back over and over again to try and kill the opposing PC?

Lookman came with some great ideas, I've provided some suggestions in my first response. They arn't perfect ideas, but they are better then what is on the table right now.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2022, 09:48:16 AM »
Bingo.

With great powers come great consequences. It act as a nice deterrent for the higher ups to not brandish their twenty or something levels of powerbuild lavishly.

Also: the whole concept of roleplaying is about tellin stories. Dieing is also part of the story.

Sure, yet you're not really dead when you're corpse hidden it's just an forced break on that character that isn't remotely plot driven, for all we know someone out of sheer spite could just park you in a place where no-one would find you anytime soon.