Author Topic: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic  (Read 3355 times)

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2022, 12:45:47 PM »
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

It's something we've considered before but it comes with a whole slew of problems. First of all, short of a mechanical system, it'll be a nightmare to police. Secondly, why should you be able to bring your friend's corpse, but not a stranger's? The Vistani don't care whether the dead is your friend or foe.

And then you end up with issues regarding official bounties, where people could essentially avoid them forever by hiding in certain domains. In the past, people would do that in the Mist Camp where there was a misconception it was a safe zone from PvP, and it was rather lame.

In the end we've opted against that. Overall though the most recent iteration of the death system seems to work rather well.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2022, 12:51:14 PM »
What if every time someone corpse another, they both have to get to an agreement about that to do with the corpse? Whats the story? How they both agree for the thing to unfold? Would it be nice if the friends of the dead would go and look for it? or would rather the killer find a creative way (with the dead's permission) to do something with it? Would you like to involve a DM for something even cooler? This is not a end all scenario, this is a powerful chance for storytelling! I'ts a dramatic intersection in the stories of two characters, and they both have stakes on that, the one with the responsibility of managing the corpse right, and the dead as well.

This is what I told myself I would have done if I managed to find myself in such a scenario, this is how i would like to be treated, and how i would like to extend the same should I come out victorious from a PVP.

Corpse hiding is taking agency away from a player about a character. It's a form of policing that is well inside the vigilante: i dont want you to play your character. In a Rp server, IMO, this cant be.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 12:52:51 PM by Maffa »


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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2022, 12:59:19 PM »
It would be great if we could fully open the line of communication between players. That would result in the best over all for everyone. But in order to do that, we need to have an understanding that that information wont be crossed over from OOC to IC
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EO

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2022, 01:01:29 PM »
Quote
What if every time someone corpse another, they both have to get to an agreement about that to do with the corpse? Whats the story? How they both agree for the thing to unfold? Would it be nice if the friends of the dead would go and look for it? or would rather the killer find a creative way (with the dead's permission) to do something with it? Would you like to involve a DM for something even cooler? This is not a end all scenario, this is a powerful chance for storytelling! I'ts a dramatic intersection in the stories of two characters, and they both have stakes on that, the one with the responsibility of managing the corpse right, and the dead as well.

Whilst this is admirable, it only works when trust is already there between both parties (which incidentally is our first PvP rule, but that's another matter). Otherwise, this amounts to an OOC opt in/out system, which we've never wanted to implement. OOC opt out systems are particularly problematic and lead to as much resentment if not more. In the end, since you can't be killed unless your character opted in the conflict, the best way to avoid such consequences is to bow out of any conflict, not provoke people, etc.

Skelni

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2022, 01:03:38 PM »
I have seen groups successfully communicate in the past about death of a PC and the involved corpse hiding. And it seemingly went pretty well - Until others caught wind of it and it got very messy very quickly.

I don't think it's so much of an issue as people won't establish a dialogue about conflict and such to one another, but that it's sort of assumed that one side (the losing side in the conflict) will likely have issue with anything that is being established to begin with. After all, you probably wouldn't like it when some guy is holding the key to your survival in his inventory, and he can seemingly just put it down wherever.


It keeps boiling down to just having respect for the environment and to one another. Conflict revolves around this being utilized to a tee.
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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2022, 01:07:45 PM »
It would be great if we could fully open the line of communication between players. That would result in the best over all for everyone. But in order to do that, we need to have an understanding that that information wont be crossed over from OOC to IC
Considering how much adrenaline i accrued when i had my few bouts of PVP, reaching out OOC is the first thing I do to "neutralize" the rush, and to get immediately cordial with my opponent. I consider DMs and (A)MPC to be trustworthy on account of managing my own agency, they are "selfless" and so they act for the benefit of the whole server (including, hence, mine own). A fellow player has their own agenda, as i have mine. It really is a basic thing to me to reach out OOC and a) normalise the relationship and clear the air out of any IC to OOC aggressivity bleed, and b) try to get to a mutual agreement on what to do next, for mutual satisfaction of every party involved.

Whilst this is admirable, it only works when trust is already there between both parties (which incidentally is our first PvP rule, but that's another matter). Otherwise, this amounts to an OOC opt in/out system, which we've never wanted to implement. OOC opt out systems are particularly problematic and lead to as much resentment if not more. In the end, since you can't be killed unless your character opted in the conflict, the best way to avoid such consequences is to bow out of any conflict, not provoke people, etc.

I am talking about post fact. The path has been walked, the deed is done.

I have seen groups successfully communicate in the past about death of a PC and the involved corpse hiding. And it seemingly went pretty well - Until others caught wind of it and it got very messy very quickly.

I don't think it's so much of an issue as people won't establish a dialogue about conflict and such to one another, but that it's sort of assumed that one side (the losing side in the conflict) will likely have issue with anything that is being established to begin with. After all, you probably wouldn't like it when some guy is holding the key to your survival in his inventory, and he can seemingly just put it down wherever.


It keeps boiling down to just having respect for the environment and to one another. Conflict revolves around this being utilized to a tee.

cant say I know what you are talking about, so i have no references.
Uhm. Say Peter the Loaf kills Jenny Swift. They both agree on a max 3 days corpse hide with some hints around. Jenny's friends dont care and start a manhunt on Peter on full retaliation, and the build goodwill go sour. Is it what you were referring to?


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Darkthrasher

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2022, 01:09:34 PM »
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

It's something we've considered before but it comes with a whole slew of problems. First of all, short of a mechanical system, it'll be a nightmare to police. Secondly, why should you be able to bring your friend's corpse, but not a stranger's? The Vistani don't care whether the dead is your friend or foe.

And then you end up with issues regarding official bounties, where people could essentially avoid them forever by hiding in certain domains. In the past, people would do that in the Mist Camp where there was a misconception it was a safe zone from PvP, and it was rather lame.

In the end we've opted against that. Overall though the most recent iteration of the death system seems to work rather well.


Those are good points I didnt think on actually. Policing would be rough.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2022, 01:20:21 PM »
Corpse-hiding isn't such an OOC mechanic when you consider that this is a setting with resurrection magic: it's perfectly reasonable to follow up an assassination with "kidnapping" your victim's remains when any level 9 cleric or anyone with relatively common raise item can bring them back.

ICly, it'd be possible to render someone's body down to ashes and toss those ashes into a lava pit until only a True Resurrection or Wish spell could bring them back. So in that respect it's fair to observe that corpse-hiding is protecting the victim from worse consequences.

I think the consequence landscape is already pretty skewed against the aggressor. If my level 2 PC gets murdered, I can respawn two weeks later and act as witness to my own murder, putting my murderer on the Vaulting track. That's an extreme example but it illustrates the point: corpse-hiding isn't the worst consequence you can suffer. It's just the worst consequence that PCs can inflict on one another without the involvement of DMs or Factions with access to a Vault.
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Skelni

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2022, 01:21:53 PM »
cant say I know what you are talking about, so i have no references.
Uhm. Say Peter the Loaf kills Jenny Swift. They both agree on a max 3 days corpse hide with some hints around. Jenny's friends dont care and start a manhunt on Peter on full retaliation, and the build goodwill go sour. Is it what you were referring to?
Yeah, that's essentially what I'm getting at.

There's no reason we can't be polite and cordial about things as nasty as corpse hiding and whatnot. Hopefully the intended effects of it are what I described, being that, someone wants to do SOMETHING without interference from the other person, so they corpse hide for a bit. It's just that, not everyone wants to be cordial about it. So it all kind of falls apart and then we get threads like this discussing the whole purpose behind it all.
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Maffa

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2022, 01:31:19 PM »
maybe the consequence could be a nice roll on DP :)


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VaeVictis

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2022, 01:35:45 PM »
I like Chadyos idea of introducing the rule to prevent corpses from being taken across the core via the vistani carts. Not taking out corpsehiding entirely, but restricting it a little. From what I have found recently is that the corpse hiding can make sense ICly (and sometimes should be hidden as best as possible), but looking for the corpse feels very OOC (even with attempts to make it entirely IC), especially when it makes sense that your character would ICly be looking for the corpse as much as possible.

It's something we've considered before but it comes with a whole slew of problems. First of all, short of a mechanical system, it'll be a nightmare to police. Secondly, why should you be able to bring your friend's corpse, but not a stranger's? The Vistani don't care whether the dead is your friend or foe.

And then you end up with issues regarding official bounties, where people could essentially avoid them forever by hiding in certain domains. In the past, people would do that in the Mist Camp where there was a misconception it was a safe zone from PvP, and it was rather lame.

In the end we've opted against that. Overall though the most recent iteration of the death system seems to work rather well.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. What would be wrong with people sticking to different domains? Is that not what they should do, to avoid the place they have been bountied in if they have any care for their lives at all?

As an aside, I am also among those that believe the Mist Camp is a mistake. That it should be deleted and you just choose where to go from the caravan in the domains themselves rather than automatically to the Mist Camp, and from there to other places.

It's a beautiful looking area but I see it more as a detriment to integrity than a valuable asset.

In response to the original poster:

You are not wrong in those perspectives. It inherently rewards those who have been a part of the community for a long time and have made friends ICly and OOCly in it. Anyone that tells you otherwise either benefits from it and is actively a hypocrite, or just doesn't know any better. Corpsehiding is a lot less effective when you have five to ten friends looking for you, or willing to. I say this as someone that has been corpse-hidden, and has searched for bodies too when my character was involved. I did not get the 'short end of the stick', but I am not blind to the privilege.

The level of consequences is not equal, nor impartial. And it can easily be shrugged off by anyone with staying presence and in the right places. Save for the most determined person stealthing away to change the body's location being very attentive to where a given group has checked already, assuming they're not found and killed for association during the conflict. And that never lasts six months.

Once you become aware of this, you are also aware that there are certain characters (or certain players, regardless of their current character) whom yours will never be able to impose such consequences on. They are free of such, but others of the playerbase at large are not. It such a cliché to see it in a 'justice only serves the rich' kind of way, but it's easy to see as well why would someone feel like it.

And since there are no rules regarding when corpse hiding is fine or not aside from whether you are opted in or not, all bets are off. There are few instances, save when you're reaching or playing a really good aligned character, where you could have your own character think sparing your enemy with no guarantees they'll come back for you as soon as they can is a good idea. So it is always justifiable In-Character. We can cross that one off. The only reason when it's not is when you, yourself, go out of your way to make it not so.

Of all my instances in PvP so far, I have never corpse hidden anyone nor partook in conflict that would have led to the forced closure of another character. (I recall one time my character was in possession of the body of an enemy, and was at odds with his own group because he preferred to resurrect the person and interrogate them rather than immediately corpsehide.) The nuclear option has never been appealing when trying to write a story in a shared space.

Over the years, I've become less invested.

But from a new player perspective? To know, save for the proverbial ten commandments, that it is the wild west and you have no guarantee antagonism of any sort won't lead into your character being perma'd (If you get forcibly shelved for six months by that point you're playing another game entirely, rather than log in to do your daily Pablo Escobar ghost roleplay). Is a lot of weight to have on your mind, specially on a slow progression server. That's six months of your life you're not getting back. Either in levels or in self-resurrection.

I can definitely see that point. I was recently talking to a fellow player and they commented to me that, the thought they could get corpsehidden and essentially removed from the game entirely turned them off until they stopped playing. And I can understand why, too. As a new player to the server, with no friends, no OOC presence, and no guarantees- You're naked in the woods. There's no safety net.

How do I feel about corpsehiding? I think it's neat. I also know it all comes down to players willing to reach a compromise, with or without this mechanic. The fact that it's entirely possible to not have a corpse-hiding mechanic, and for player-characters to die and then make concessions so the conflict ends means this is not impossible, or hard to do in fact. It just has to be encouraged. And repeated instances of failing to do so, punished severely. Was your character defeated? The onus is also on you to reason they were, they lost the conflict and will stay out of it or will concede to the demands of their enemy or captor.

Corpse-hiding in that way takes away from the player responsibility and leaves it to a mechanic. It means your character can be 'Victory or death! I shall never admit defeat, I will make no concessions, die evildoer!' and that is alright because I get to corpse hide you 'justifiably', big boy. It also means I can do it without even trying, which I think is what we could change.

Corpse hiding should be perhaps, per rules, a last restort. Your character after defeat is given a reasonable surrender condition. 'You will not interfere with the business of X and Y again' 'You will not attack me again'. I understand the current design is so you never have to worry about whether either of those two players will follow through because it doesn't matter. It's easy to avoid catastrophizing about the thought of having to deal with problem players and reports about this or that. But I don't think it would be. I think that is just common sense, you already know that they could.

'But what if my character is a bad ass and I want him to keep fighting and never surrender? Accepting defeat is humilliating' If it is in-character, then have them spit on their captors face and get their throat slit for it. Get corpse hidden as it was going to be, and carry on from there. But if you do accept defeat, stick to those terms.

When I was corpse-hidden, I also communicated with the killer to let them know the outcome was acceptable to me, as it was what made the most sense in-character and there was no bad blood between us OOC. They otherwise had no way to know I would not go nuclear on them as well.  Which is something important to keep in mind in a community. You will share a space with them, you will keep seeing them, you will keep playing with them. There is no reason to foster a bad attitude. Or the anxiety that there might be one. (Likewise, when killing someone I communicate OOCly to let them know where the body will be delivered to, what is happening, what to look forward to- But none of that is required. It is appreciated by the other party, it felt right for me to do those things but I was not required to do them.)

It would be nice if it were.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 01:52:09 PM by VaeVictis »

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2022, 02:36:18 PM »
I did not get the 'short end of the stick', but I am not blind to the privilege.

Back up here. It's not a privilege, it's earned. Finding good hiding spots is open to anyone: just build a character with decent Stealth, Open Locks, and Search, and you can find them. I was willing to spend hours exploring the server in my first year on this server, and I'm ready to spend hours exploring new and changed areas now. I did it because I like exploring, and it turned out to be useful in the giant Hide and Seek minigame, but it's still a matter of attitude and determination, not something given freely. You can ask why such skill comes to bear in PvP; but why not? Why is button-pressing skill legitimate and hide-and-seek skill illegitimate in PvP?

I also don't think it's particularly accurate or helpful to present matters in terms of monolithic veteran cliques making consequences meaningless for themselves. The last time I went on a corpse search, we had a slew of different experience levels in the group, and we still didn't find the body.
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JayJay

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2022, 03:42:45 PM »
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2022, 04:56:55 PM »
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

It can be difficult at times if you don't want to pvp. You could end up possessing an item that someone else covets and you may end up dead and hidden for the item without realizing that by having it you were opted in to pvp, or you could over hear some sort of information that was not meant for your ears. This is a server that is heavy into the whole "every action has a reaction", that reaction could be hostility, it could be fear, it could be murder, there are many things that come into play both what we are aware of and what others are. It's the mysteries and joys of a shared narrative.

Maybe we could shift our view from "Player versus Player" and begin to call it "CvC= Character Versus Character".
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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2022, 05:10:48 PM »
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2022, 05:21:32 PM »
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

The story is usually born out of conflict unless there is a DM involved, your main conflict is usually with other players. This is what PvP is and most people actually like PvP (like myself.)

However, some people don't like the mechanical aspect of the PvP which is what this topic is around (Corpse Hiding is mostly mechanical). To give an example, I like playing a Guard (nearly all I do on the server) because it brings good and healthy conflict there is plenty of opportunities to create a story. I don't really like the mechanical aspect of the PvP but playing a guard, I should expect to meet it at some point. Should I stop playing a guard just because I don't like mechanical PvP?

Just wanted to give my comment on this, I don't really like the current corpse system, I would rather have people get knocked out or unconscious as we carry them around. The concept of carrying dead bodies around which can be instantly resurrected kind of lessens the impact of death in my opinion.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2022, 05:22:17 PM »
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

It can happen. Especially if you're stealthing around. Sneaking around a person can over hear all sorts of things, perhaps a character decided to eavesdrop out of boredom and over hears character b and d plotting a murder or a theft. Or you stumble upon a scene you wish you hadn't. It's very possible to end up learning information that you never wanted to know, or finding an item that may be more than you know.
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APorg

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2022, 05:24:39 PM »
Spying on people isn't an innocent act...
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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2022, 05:28:40 PM »
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

It can happen. Especially if you're stealthing around. Sneaking around a person can over hear all sorts of things, perhaps a character decided to eavesdrop out of boredom and over hears character b and d plotting a murder or a theft. Or you stumble upon a scene you wish you hadn't. It's very possible to end up learning information that you never wanted to know, or finding an item that may be more than you know.

This is exactly the point. If you place yourself into these compromising positions, you are absolutely responsible for whatever consequences you may incur. Dependent on the severity of that which has been said, or done. It is entirely reasonable and realistic of you to be killed and subsequently disposed of.
Now, this typically isn't immediate if you are able to commit espionage against your fellow player, however it is what you do with said information thereafter, meaning. If you decide to randomly divulge information, involve yourself. Congratulations, you're now involved. This applies equally to all sides of the spectrum without discrimination.

Why bother sneaking around attempting to listen in on conversations such as this if you don't want to be involved?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 06:00:57 PM by JayJay »

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2022, 05:31:48 PM »
I'd just like to quickly say that if you are a stealther and are going out of your way to eavesdrop on people, you are very obviously and willingly putting yourself at risk. Doing it "out of boredom" doesn't really change the fact that if you are caught listening in on a conversation that was obviously not meant for you, there are probably going to be consequences.

Spying on people isn't an innocent act...

^ Exactly, lmao

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2022, 05:39:01 PM »
Why rp things you get pvpd over if you don't want pvp?

The story is usually born out of conflict unless there is a DM involved, your main conflict is usually with other players. This is what PvP is and most people actually like PvP (like myself.)

However, some people don't like the mechanical aspect of the PvP which is what this topic is around (Corpse Hiding is mostly mechanical). To give an example, I like playing a Guard (nearly all I do on the server) because it brings good and healthy conflict there is plenty of opportunities to create a story. I don't really like the mechanical aspect of the PvP but playing a guard, I should expect to meet it at some point. Should I stop playing a guard just because I don't like mechanical PvP?

Just wanted to give my comment on this, I don't really like the current corpse system, I would rather have people get knocked out or unconscious as we carry them around. The concept of carrying dead bodies around which can be instantly resurrected kind of lessens the impact of death in my opinion.

Resurrection has always been a mainstay of D&D, while it does in fact cheapen the impact of killing someone it most certainly does not negate the significance of the action.
Violence, and battle are also recurring themes in Dungeons and Dragons. People are killed often, it is not inherently evil, nor good. - Gods of Good, Evil, and Neutrality advocate the killing of foes and it is lauded. The point of the post was to point out that by taking on particular roles, you are consigning yourself to the high possibility of entering into a combative role yourself by playing a character of conflict. It is not to say that you shouldn't take on these roles in my original question, but to point out the fact that we as players willingly enter that domain. That a choice was made, before ever entering the game world.

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2022, 05:45:48 PM »
How do you accidentally end up with a mythically important item, or secretive information?

It can happen. Especially if you're stealthing around. Sneaking around a person can over hear all sorts of things, perhaps a character decided to eavesdrop out of boredom and over hears character b and d plotting a murder or a theft. Or you stumble upon a scene you wish you hadn't. It's very possible to end up learning information that you never wanted to know, or finding an item that may be more than you know.

I don't want to get us derailed from the main topic here, but I feel it's important to jump in briefly to add another facet to this. It can also happen by association. Probably half of the PvP-like encounters and arcs (apart from [A]MPCs, since they're permanently opted in) I've been part of during, say, the last year have occurred because of another character's actions (speaking of others in the general sense) and my character being dragged into it by association.

If the question then becomes, "Why are you associating with that person or those people?" I think we'd be stretching the argument a bit. The point is that sometimes you do go looking for trouble, and other times, trouble just falls in your lap while you're just trying to do your own thing.


JayJay

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2022, 05:56:21 PM »
Quote
I don't want to get us derailed from the main topic here, but I feel it's important to jump in briefly to add another facet to this. It can also happen by association. Probably half of the PvP-like encounters and arcs (apart from [A]MPCs, since they're permanently opted in) I've been part of during, say, the last year have occurred because of another character's actions (speaking of others in the general sense) and my character being dragged into it by association.

If the question then becomes, "Why are you associating with that person or those people?" I think we'd be stretching the argument a bit. The point is that sometimes you do go looking for trouble, and other times, trouble just falls in your lap while you're just trying to do your own thing.
The question isn't why, or who you are associating with but you and your character at the very core of entire issue.
I'd like to believe we have similar experiences regarding the issue, so you could understand my viewpoint on the entire problem.
If you elect to play in any roles deemed to hold, or will hold conflict then you should expect the cruel aspects to go hand-in-hand with the benefits.

Good aligned characters are generally reactive, so what you say makes sense.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 06:10:21 PM by JayJay »

Kaninchen

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2022, 07:43:46 PM »
The mechanic isn't perfect, but it's fine. Actions should have consequences. Perspective is also an important thing here.  If Mero were to be corse-hid tonight, that just means Toothpick is unleashed on the server.  That is to say that you can view not being able to play a character as an opportunity to make a new one, try out some different concept.  Losing access to a PC isn't the same thing as not being able to play the game. 

I'll also say corse-hiding happens less often than these posts imply it does.

VaeVictis

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Re: Replace the corpsehiding mechanic
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2022, 12:19:58 AM »
I did not get the 'short end of the stick', but I am not blind to the privilege.

Back up here. It's not a privilege, it's earned. Finding good hiding spots is open to anyone: just build a character with decent Stealth, Open Locks, and Search, and you can find them. I was willing to spend hours exploring the server in my first year on this server, and I'm ready to spend hours exploring new and changed areas now. I did it because I like exploring, and it turned out to be useful in the giant Hide and Seek minigame, but it's still a matter of attitude and determination, not something given freely. You can ask why such skill comes to bear in PvP; but why not? Why is button-pressing skill legitimate and hide-and-seek skill illegitimate in PvP?

I also don't think it's particularly accurate or helpful to present matters in terms of monolithic veteran cliques making consequences meaningless for themselves. The last time I went on a corpse search, we had a slew of different experience levels in the group, and we still didn't find the body.

Rich people earned their money too. It does not make them any less privileged. "A special advantage possessed by a particular person or group". The word, at no point, implies it just happened spontaneously and arbitrarily.

It undeniably exists, however.

I did very much the same things you mentioned, and I just don't see things the same way. I don't believe I mentioned map knowledge in it once, but that's a good addition to the list. On the other hand, trying to reduce the entirety of the situation to 'hide-and-seek RP' is not only misleading, but maliciously facetious and willingly ignores every other point made, whether knowingly or unknowingly. You know well its more nuanced than that if you got that far into the post.

It is good that you enjoy exploring. I do as well. Point in case, I've hired people to do hours long explorations of places, hiring those with high search scores to comb the walls for hidden doors and secrets. In many instances, exploring the same 'boring' place simply for the RP it brings and due to being very interested in just finding secrets or snippets of lore.

That such veterans exist is not an attack on their personality, or existence, or worth. I am one myself. It is a reality of any PW and online gaming community there is. The longer you are a part of it, the more friends and contacts you make, the more you get to know the secrets or tricks.

A passion for exploring is remarkable, but it does not address the points. Or, most importantly, the proposed conclusion.

Particularly since at no point of it would it prevent you from enjoying it, nor would invalidate the 'worth' of said accumulated knowledge at all.

The mechanic isn't perfect, but it's fine. Actions should have consequences. Perspective is also an important thing here.  If Mero were to be corse-hid tonight, that just means Toothpick is unleashed on the server.  That is to say that you can view not being able to play a character as an opportunity to make a new one, try out some different concept.  Losing access to a PC isn't the same thing as not being able to play the game. 

I'll also say corse-hiding happens less often than these posts imply it does.

I agree with you.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 12:23:18 AM by VaeVictis »